The Valiancy of Trees, revisited. Progress of Intelligences, Brigham Young

[nuclearfuels]

Brigham Young said: If people understood true philosophy—eternal philosophy, they would understand that there is an eternity of matter. Astronomers estimate that there is between us and the nearest fixed star matter enough from which to organize millions of earths like this. There is an eternity of matter, and it is all acted upon and filled with a portion of divinity. Matter is to exist; it cannot be annihilated. Eternity is without bounds, and is filled with matter; and there is no such place as empty space. And matter is capacitated to receive intelligence.

If we could so understand true philosophy as to understand our own creation, and what it is for—what design and intent the Supreme Ruler had in organizing matter and bringing it forth in the capacity that I behold you here today, we could comprehend that matter cannot be destroyed—that it is subject to organization and disorganization; and could understand that matter can be organized and

brought forth into intelligence,

and to possess more intelligence,

and to continue to increase in that intelligence;

and could learn those principles that organized matter into animals, vegetables, and into intelligent beings; and could discern the Divinity acting, operating, and diffusing principles into matter to produce intelligent beings, and to exalt them—to what? Happiness. Will nothing short of that fully satisfy the spirits implanted within us? No.

(Emphasis added Source: https://journalofdiscourses.com/7/1 and https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/347/)

 

Hi all,

What do you think about this? What's your take-away?

 

Pls correct me if I'm wrong here. My reading of this suggests:

 

1. Like us, plants, animals and materials have some level of intelligence

2. Like us, they may possess more intelligence

3. Like us, they may increase in their intelligence

 

Therefore:
1. Unless the plants, animals, and materials (rocks, etc.) are damned or stopped in their eternal progression, they like us will continue progressing eternally. 

1b - Would God not cease to be God if He arbitrarily damned plants, animals, materials? (2 Nephi 2, Alma 42 etc.)

2. When they reach the highest level of intelligence, they'll obtain a physical body with free agency be born on an earth, live, progress, die, get resurrected, progress to become like our Heavenly Parents.

3. To me, this suggests that we - as premortal intelligences may have had lessons / experiences / births / etc. on other earths where we lived as plants, rocks, animals, etc and progressed to the point of obtaining free will and a physical mortal body. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2024 by nuclearfuels
added BoM chapters

[CV75]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Brigham Young said: If people understood true philosophy—eternal philosophy, they would understand that there is an eternity of matter. Astronomers estimate that there is between us and the nearest fixed star matter enough from which to organize millions of earths like this. There is an eternity of matter, and it is all acted upon and filled with a portion of divinity. Matter is to exist; it cannot be annihilated. Eternity is without bounds, and is filled with matter; and there is no such place as empty space. And matter is capacitated to receive intelligence.

If we could so understand true philosophy as to understand our own creation, and what it is for—what design and intent the Supreme Ruler had in organizing matter and bringing it forth in the capacity that I behold you here today, we could comprehend that matter cannot be destroyed—that it is subject to organization and disorganization; and could understand that matter can be organized and

brought forth into intelligence,

and to possess more intelligence,

and to continue to increase in that intelligence;

and could learn those principles that organized matter into animals, vegetables, and into intelligent beings; and could discern the Divinity acting, operating, and diffusing principles into matter to produce intelligent beings, and to exalt them—to what? Happiness. Will nothing short of that fully satisfy the spirits implanted within us? No.

(Emphasis added Source: https://journalofdiscourses.com/7/1 and https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/347/)

 

Hi all,

What do you think about this? What's your take-away?

 

Pls correct me if I'm wrong here. My reading of this suggests:

 

1. Like us, plants, animals and materials have some level of intelligence

2. Like us, they may possess more intelligence

3. Like us, they may increase in their intelligence

 

Therefore:
1. Unless the plants, animals, and materials (rocks, etc.) are damned or stopped in their eternal progression, they like us will continue progressing eternally. 

1b - Would God not cease to be God if He arbitrarily damned plants, animals, materials? (2 Nephi 2, Alma 42 etc.)

2. When they reach the highest level of intelligence, they'll obtain a physical body with free agency be born on an earth, live, progress, die, get resurrected, progress to become like our Heavenly Parents.

3. To me, this suggests that we - as premortal intelligences may have had lessons / experiences / births / etc. on other earths where we lived as plants, rocks, animals, etc and progressed to the point of obtaining free will and a physical mortal body. 

I don’t know whether you are wrong, but it is interesting to me that principles (fundamental building blocks of matter?) can be diffused (spread out?) so as to become matter and further, into exalted beings. I would think they would be organized and fused rather than the other way around. But he does preface his statement in such as way as to remind us that God’s ways are not our ways.

He keeps animals and vegetables apart from intelligent beings in his explanation, so I’m not seeing an advancement from plants to people as you suggest in points 1 – 3. I understand your conclusion was shared by some of the early saints in a form of reincarnation, which the Adam-God teaching implied (as in an exalted god advances to greater exaltation after reducing into a terrestrial estate and falling into a telestial estate and so on).

Perhaps all forms of matter, including spirits, however they may have been expressed in Eden and later in mortality, are extensions of Adam; you resurrect and exalt him and they all go right along. The spirits of beasts (D&C 77) and the earth (Moses 7) are multi-level expressions of Adam and Eve’s spirits, who when exalted, eventually comprehend all things. This is one way we and all other things might be co-eternal with God.

It also looks at existence in terms of fusion than diffusion. Unless the fusion/diffusion dynamic is considered a form of reincarnation.

Edited June 3, 2024 by CV75

[manol]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Therefore:

1. Unless the plants, animals, and materials (rocks, etc.) are damned or stopped in their eternal progression, they like us will continue progressing eternally. 

1b - Would God not cease to be God if He arbitrarily damned plants, animals, materials? (2 Nephi 2, Alma 42 etc.)

2. When they reach the highest level of intelligence, they'll obtain a physical body with free agency be born on an earth, live, progress, die, get resurrected, progress to become like our Heavenly Parents.

3. To me, this suggests that we - as premortal intelligences may have had lessons / experiences / births / etc. on other earths where we lived as plants, rocks, animals, etc and progressed to the point of obtaining free will and a physical mortal body.

Very interesting ideas.  I think there may be far more to "progression" (how we got to where we are now and what the next steps are) than we have scriptural descriptions of. 

Imo one of the most intriguing concepts of the process of creation, from the distant past into the far future, is “The Molecular Relationship”, described in a book of the same title written by J.J. Dewey. It's been over two decades since I read the book but it made a strong impression on me. This will be from recollection.

The operative principle underlying the Molecular Relationship might be called “organizing”, in that multiple smaller parts come together and combine to create a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. “Organize” is the word used in the Book of Abraham for the process by which God created man, and I think it is the Hebrew word used in Genesis for the process by which God “created” the heavens and the earth.

My understanding of the creation account in Abraham is that creation happens first on the spiritual plane, and then on the physical plane. So as we look at the patterns in physical creation we may be seeing a reflection of spiritual-plane creation, though probably not a perfect reflection.

Let's start with what has been assumed about the Big Bang by people much smarter than me. My understanding is that in the first few milliseconds after the Big Bang, subatomic particles – electrons, protons, and neutrons – are formed. These subatomic particles “try” combining in various ways, and some of those unions are successful. For instance, one electron and one proton combine to form a hydrogen atom. The properties of a hydrogen atom vastly transcend those of its constituent parts. Subatomic particles organize into other elements, such as oxygen and sodium and chlorine.... matter organizing itself, or becoming organized.

(Yes I understand that quarks and before that presumably strings preceded subatomic particles, but I'm not familiar enough with their characteristics to talk about them with any confidence, so I started with subatomic particles joining to form atoms.)

The next stage is, atoms gathering and joining together to form molecules. Two hydrogens and one oxygen form water, whose properties transcend those of its constituent parts. One sodium atom (sodium is a metal so volatile that it will burst into flame when exposed to air) and one chlorine atom (chlorine is a deadly poisonous gas) join together to form salt, a mineral essential for life, whose properties not only transcend but are not at all obvious from looking at its constituent parts.

At some point certain kinds of complex molecules, called long-chain amino acids, develop the ability to self-replicate by splitting in two. Then at some point a group of these long-chain amino acids come together and organize in a way that forms the first single-cell organism.

The next stage is multiple single-cell organisms somehow coming together to form a multi-cell organism, with specialized cells for different tasks (organs). Lives that have been formed in the spirit world incarnate into these physical-world bodies, including ours. 

So assuming physical-world creation has been following a pattern that was first laid down in the spirit world, perhaps intelligences or energies of some sort were organized into primitive spirit life forms, which in turn were organized into more advanced spirit life forms. Perhaps multiple mineral spirits combine to from a plant spirit, and multiple plant spirits combine to form an animal spirit, and multiple animal spirits combine to form a human spirit. Primitive cultures sometimes have traditions that hint at this – the concept of a person having his animal spirits as guides in Native American cultures could suggest the joining together of multiple animal spirits to form the next level up, the human spirit.

So assuming the same general pattern that we observe in the physical world holds up in the spiritual world, higher lives are presumably formed by the joining together of lesser lives. So we have the Hebrew word for God, “Elohim”, as a plural word, implying that an “Elohim” is made up of a plurality of constituent parts. The Molecular Relationship concept implies that the Kingdom of God consists of higher-level beings formed by the organizing, or joining together, of lesser lives – those lesser lives being men and women like ourselves.

We may have at least one example of a Human Molecular unit: the original Twelve Apostles of Jesus. JJ Dewey believes that these were actually twelve couples, rather than twelve men. Anyway when this Human Molecular unit was intact, its members were like superhumans, with abilities to heal like Jesus. This continued until the Molecule was broken by Judas, at which point the individual members (the eleven remaining apostles) lost their abilities and became like ordinary humans. Then when the Molecule was restored, once again they had their superpowers back: They could heal the sick and cast out demons (mental illness?), be understood by people who didn't speak their language, even teleport... and in some cases the sick were healed just by their shadow passing over them. They had become a whole that was far greater than the sum of its parts... perhaps because a higher life was incarnating through them?

There may even be some foreshadowing of this in the Temple: At the end of the Endowment ceremony, multiple couples join together in a particular prayerful “Order”, after which they are allowed to enter the next higher level.

(For the record, I'm not saying this is my current paradigm, but I do find it to be a very interesting one.  For instance it has shifted how I see animals, as maybe they are our little brothers.)

Edited June 3, 2024 by manol

[Calm]

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Like us, plants, animals and materials have some level of intelligence

But what is “intelligence” when used this way?  It is certainly not what we think of when we use intelligence like in intelligence tests or IQs.

Edited June 3, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

progress to become like our Heavenly Parents.

Why?  Why assume that all intelligence is identical and therefore ends up as children of Heavenly Parents?  Why not a different path that leads them to be exalted or at least celestial plants and animals?

How boring to think that all creation ends up filled with humanity and little else as time goes on (even if plants, etc keep being created, if the end result is humanity, then humanity’s numbers keep rising while the rest do not as they all transition to humanity as they progress unless damned for some reason).  

Sounds like reincarnation and yet we are told we never had physical bodies before and that once we are resurrected, we will never lose them?

Edited June 3, 2024 by Calm

[LoudmouthMormon]

16 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

1. Like us, plants, animals and materials have some level of intelligence

2. Like us, they may possess more intelligence

3. Like us, they may increase in their intelligence

Sure.  But if you're gonna follow this line of thinking, you might as well follow it completely.  And that means ditching your humanocentric unconscious biases about what "intelligence" has to look like.  The notion that the more intelligent nonhumans might get, the more they'd look and act like us, is the height of human hubris.  Wouldn't you say?

For me and mine, I'm still content to just ditch this line of thinking.  Because again, a massive cloud of a gazillion sentient mosquitoes just isn't my idea of heaven.  Please consider me in the eternal political version of the "Humans First" party.

(Open transparency: I've been more closely soul-bonded to various animals throughout my life, than I've been to most humans.)

Edited June 3, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[mfbukowski]

https://www.nhpr.org/environment/2023-05-26/outside-inbox-can-plants-talk-to-each-other

Is communication "talking" or simply "chemical reactions"?  The semantics of science vs common usage at war again.

These are called "language games" by a philosopher named Wittgenstein, perhaps the best and most important philosopher of the 20th century.

Do brain cells have "intelligence"?  How many brain cells does it take before we can call it "intelligence"??  

I sometimes wonder if PEOPLE have "intelligence"  

Again, it's semantics.

 

Edited June 3, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Stargazer]

21 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Brigham Young said: If people understood true philosophy—eternal philosophy, they would understand that there is an eternity of matter. Astronomers estimate that there is between us and the nearest fixed star matter enough from which to organize millions of earths like this. There is an eternity of matter, and it is all acted upon and filled with a portion of divinity. Matter is to exist; it cannot be annihilated. Eternity is without bounds, and is filled with matter; and there is no such place as empty space. And matter is capacitated to receive intelligence.

If we could so understand true philosophy as to understand our own creation, and what it is for—what design and intent the Supreme Ruler had in organizing matter and bringing it forth in the capacity that I behold you here today, we could comprehend that matter cannot be destroyed—that it is subject to organization and disorganization; and could understand that matter can be organized and

brought forth into intelligence,

and to possess more intelligence,

and to continue to increase in that intelligence;

and could learn those principles that organized matter into animals, vegetables, and into intelligent beings; and could discern the Divinity acting, operating, and diffusing principles into matter to produce intelligent beings, and to exalt them—to what? Happiness. Will nothing short of that fully satisfy the spirits implanted within us? No.

(Emphasis added Source: https://journalofdiscourses.com/7/1 and https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/347/)

 

Hi all,

What do you think about this? What's your take-away?

 

Pls correct me if I'm wrong here. My reading of this suggests:

 

1. Like us, plants, animals and materials have some level of intelligence

2. Like us, they may possess more intelligence

3. Like us, they may increase in their intelligence

 

Therefore:
1. Unless the plants, animals, and materials (rocks, etc.) are damned or stopped in their eternal progression, they like us will continue progressing eternally. 

1b - Would God not cease to be God if He arbitrarily damned plants, animals, materials? (2 Nephi 2, Alma 42 etc.)

2. When they reach the highest level of intelligence, they'll obtain a physical body with free agency be born on an earth, live, progress, die, get resurrected, progress to become like our Heavenly Parents.

3. To me, this suggests that we - as premortal intelligences may have had lessons / experiences / births / etc. on other earths where we lived as plants, rocks, animals, etc and progressed to the point of obtaining free will and a physical mortal body. 

This is something I concluded years ago. Without the aid of Brother Brigham.

2 Nephi 2:14 - And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

DC 93:29-30 - Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

DC 88:38-39 - And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

Things to act, intelligence cannot be created or made, all beings must abide by their law. 

From whence do our spirits come? Joseph Smith used the Hebrew word meaning "organize" instead of create. 

Abraham 3:18 - [I]f there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

As human beings explore the cosmos using our telescopes and other instruments, the universe grows ever larger in our minds. The glory of God is thus made manifest in our own eyes. And God said to Moses:

Moses 1:33,35,37-39 - And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. 

Joseph Smith received this in a day when human science had not yet even reached the conclusion that the fixed stars were other suns. This revelation to Joseph would have been extremely speculative science fiction in his day. Interesting that it predicts what we know only since a few decades past: that there are an innumerable number of planets in the universe. And some of them have been, are, and will be inhabited by the children of God.

It seems to me that it is entirely logical that God is in this moment organizing new spirits from intelligences, and that He will continue to do so, for eternity. Where does he get these intelligences? I think they are all around us, in various stages of development.

As Buzz Lightyear says: "To Infinity, and Beyond!"

 

 

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Why?  Why assume that all intelligence is identical and therefore ends up as children of Heavenly Parents?  Why not a different path that leads them to be exalted or at least celestial plants and animals?

Since not all children of Heavenly Parents will end up exalted to become Heavenly Parents themselves, it seems reasonable that many intelligences will never end up as children of Heavenly Parents. 

15 hours ago, Calm said:

How boring to think that all creation ends up filled with humanity and little else as time goes on (even if plants, etc keep being created, if the end result is humanity, then humanity’s numbers keep rising while the rest do not as they all transition to humanity as they progress unless damned for some reason).  

I think that each individual intelligence will rise to its most glorious level. I doubt that it is boring!  

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Sounds like reincarnation and yet we are told we never had physical bodies before and that once we are resurrected, we will never lose them?

Reincarnation gets a bad rap, I think. 

I just did a search for "reincarnation" on the church website and got no relevant results. Odd. I'm sure McConkie has written about it, but my copy of Mormon Doctrine seems to have grown legs and walked away.

Classical reincarnation, as imagined by the hobbyists, involves present-day people being reincarnated from famous people like Napoleon or Cleopatra. This is clearly baloney sausage -- too many Cleopatras and Napoleons! And where did the rest of the 8 billion people come from? On the other hand, Hindu reincarnation involves lower forms reincarnating into higher forms -- which actually seems to answer Brother Brigham's ideas. Except that the ultimate destination is is a concept in Indian religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, and Sikhism) called Nirvana, where the cycle ends in "a state of perfect quietude, freedom, highest happiness as well as the liberation from attachment and worldly suffering and the ending of samsara, the round of existence." <-- Terrestrial, Telestial, and Celestial Kingdoms?

I feel that the theology of Hinduism is probably descended and modified from true principles that have been taught from the beginning.

But as you say, once we are resurrected in our divine form, that is the end of the road.

People who dislike cats were probably mice in a prior life -- or so I read on Facebook once upon a time.

[ZealouslyStriving]

15 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Classical reincarnation, as imagined by the hobbyists, involves present-day people being reincarnated from famous people like Napoleon or Cleopatra. This is clearly baloney sausage -- too many Cleopatras and Napoleons!

That is an argument from the "Multiple Mortal Probations" crowd among the Fundamentalists. They claim that when Joseph said reincarnation was a false doctrine to the visitor in Nauvoo ( forget his name) that he was referring to his idea of being the return of some famous person to give himself some aire of authority- though Jim Harmstrom and his buddies did exactly that same thing.

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

On the other hand, Hindu reincarnation involves lower forms reincarnating into higher forms -- which actually seems to answer Brother Brigham's ideas

And back again…

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

But as you say, once we are resurrected in our divine form, that is the end of the road.

So you think our spirits were attached, unattached and reattached to different types of physical bodies over eons?  Or at least you think that is a valid way of looking at the plan of salvation?

Edited June 3, 2024 by Calm

[Stargazer]

11 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

That is an argument from the "Multiple Mortal Probations" crowd among the Fundamentalists. They claim that when Joseph said reincarnation was a false doctrine to the visitor in Nauvoo ( forget his name) that he was referring to his idea of being the return of some famous person to give himself some aire of authority- though Jim Harmstrom and his buddies did exactly that same thing.

I've thought about that MMP thing -- though it was something I came up with myself, and didn't realize others had thought of it. In my case, however, my MMP does not involve reincarnation. It involves simultaneous incarnations. The reason I thought of it as a possibility was due to what I think is insufficient testing in my known incarnation -- right here, right now. I was born into the single most rich, most powerful, and nearly free-est country on earth during a time when the Gospel was fully available. I have had X amount of temptation presented to me, Y amount of difficulties, and generally speaking, I've had it really good, with the Xs and Ys having low values. Meanwhile, my late mother-in-law was privileged to spent three years of her life in Soviet forced labor after WW2. She got thoroughly tested, beyond anything I've had to endure. Would I break if I were tested like she was? In my speculative scenario, I am being tested simultaneously in several separate "rooms," as it were, and I am compartmentalized so I'm not aware of the other "rooms" and the other me's are unaware of this me. Sounds nuts, right? But quantum mechanics sounds nuts, too, and it's real. Ever hear of entrainment? 

 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The reason I thought of it as a possibility was due to what I think is insufficient testing in my known incarnation -- right here, right now.

Yes, I think that is a massive issue for the Plan of Salvation as it’s taught.  I think my solution is simpler with all of us sharing our experiences after the Second Coming (or the dead could have started without the rest of us, no big deal) so we can learn as if we had experienced those lives even though we didn’t….except we do, just aren’t the first or only ones.

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

In my speculative scenario, I am being tested simultaneously in several separate "rooms," as it were, and I am compartmentalized so I'm not aware of the other "rooms" and the other me's are unaware of this me. Sounds nuts, right? But quantum mechanics sounds nuts, too, and it's real. Ever hear of entrainment? 

This is an interesting and fun solution, imo.

Edited June 3, 2024 by Calm

[Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

So you think our spirits were attached, unattached and reattached to different types of physical bodies over eons?  Or at least you think that is a valid way of looking at the plan of salvation?

Not putting any money into it, but it's possible. It seems, however, that animals are not involved in the plan of salvation, because they, unable to sin, need no salvation. In the end, though, there's no need to ruminate much on this idea, because it's of no value to us to know. I do think that God isn't telling us everything. Because we don't need to know. The business God is involved in is far more involved than any rocket science dreamt up by humans.

In my previous post I could have brought up scriptures that tell us to be kind to animals. Even when killing them, we are expected to do so kindly. Why should we, if they don't have spirits that experience distress that should be ameliorated? If they were as the rocks or the waters, there would be no reason to be kind. It seems that they may be children of God, just not as advanced as we are. He created them, after all...

[Stargazer]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

This is an interesting and fun solution, imo.

I had an interesting and perplexing "break."

Up until about 2014, whenever I heard blood pressure being notated, the high number was always put after the low number. Or, diastolic over systolic, as in 80/120. Then suddenly one day I was in the doctors office with my late wife, and the blood pressure recorded for her at the time was systolic over diastolic. Like 120/80. I was very surprised, because she always had high blood pressure so it was reported many times in my hearing. And it was always diastolic over systolic. Now suddenly it was the other way around. I asked the nurse if there had been a change in how it was reported. She said No.

Later, I broached this with my now wife, who is a retired nurse, and she confirmed that it has always been systolic over diastolic. 

I am not crazy. Or, at least, not that crazy. But in light of my multiple simultaneous mortal probation theory, I'm thinking that I was accidently switched from one SMP to another, very similar but different SMP. And my memory from the one carried over to the other. This would mean that my SMP self that was here, got switched over to the SMP there. And the SMP self that was here has experienced the same confusion, asking the nurse when that happened. And is perplexed over the switch.

I've been looking for other "breaks," but so far haven't identified any others. 

I wish I could write fiction worth a darn. This would make a doozy of a science-fiction story.

If my theory is correct, I do hope that the other me's are making the proper choices wherever they are.

Edited June 3, 2024 by Stargazer

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

because it's of no value to us to know

It would have great value to me to know with who and/or what I could share the Celestial Kingdom with besides God and others like me.

But I don’t think that would change my choices and I believe that is what you mean by no value.

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Why should we, if they don't have spirits that experience distress that should be ameliorated? If they were as the rocks or the waters, there would be no reason to be kind.

Because pain even if not remembered in the eternities is painful to experience for anything.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Later, I broached this with my now wife, who is a retired nurse, and she confirmed that it has always been systolic over diastolic. 

I am not crazy. Or, at least, not that crazy. But in light of my multiple simultaneous mortal probation theory, I'm thinking that I was accidently switched from one SMP to another, very similar but different SMP. And my memory from the one carried over to the other. This would mean that my SMP self that was here, got switched over to the SMP there. And the SMP self that was here has experienced the same confusion, asking the nurse when that happened. And is perplexed over the switch.

I've been looking for other "breaks," but so far haven't identified any others. 

I wish I could write fiction worth a darn. This would make a doozy of a science-fiction story.

If my theory is correct, I do hope that the other me's are making the proper choices wherever they are.

There is a conspiracy theory about the about this, the Mandela Effect perhaps?  It explains all the memories people have that are wrong.

[Calm]

Here are some examples…

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/entertainment/g28438966/mandela-effect-examples/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/85258775/nz-and-the-mandela-effect-meet-the-folks-who-remember-new-zealand-being-in-a-different-place

Quote

The "Mandela Effect" is an internet name for something that has probably happened to you, a kind of news-based deja vu. It's named for people who, upon the death of Nelson Mandela in 2013, were immediately confused - because they remembered him dying in the late 1980s. These people got online, and realised there were thousands of others of people who remembered the exact same thing….

Basically, it holds that large groups of people used to live in slightly different realities where Australia was south of New Zealand and the USA was made up of 51 states. But then, at some point in the last decade or so, those realities merged with our current timestream, changing all the dictionaries and maps to match the new reality.

If you take a look through the Mandela Effect website and subreddit, you will find hundreds of people who have a different idea of where New Zealand is. You'll probably find something you remember differently too. 

For me, it's the "Berenstain Bears". I remember it quite well as the "Berenstein Bears" - with an "e".

I'm willing to accept that I'm just bad at spelling, but the experience of realising that the scaffolding of your reality is slightly off is uniquely destabilising. If you've remembered this thing wrong, what else about your world is completely unreal?

Why people feel more secure to believe they have slipped unknowingly to an alternate dimension rather than just believe memories can get right and truly mucked up, I do not understand.

Edited June 3, 2024 by Calm

[Stargazer]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

It would have great value to me to know with who and/or what I could share the Celestial Kingdom with besides God and others like me.

But I don’t think that would change my choices and I believe that is what you mean by no value.

Yep.

[Stargazer]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Because pain even if not remembered in the eternities is painful to experience for anything.

Yes. We pound rocks without a care in the world. But for animals we dispatch them as quickly and as painlessly as possible. Or should.

[Stargazer]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is a conspiracy theory about the about this, the Mandela Effect perhaps?  It explains all the memories people have that are wrong.

Wow, thanks for that! I had heard the term "Mandela Effect" before, but until now I had never thought to check on what it referred to. How very interesting!

Wiki says this in the article: "Memes about the Mandela effect and associated online jokes about a time traveler altering the past and turning the current era into "a glitch" became popular in the United States in 2016."

So, I'm glitching! 

I sometimes play Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 occasionally. In one of the solo missions, it is possible to glitch yourself into one spot and there's no way to get away from that spot. The only solution is to die -- either by an enemy to come and kill you, or by dropping one of your own grenades at your feet. 

[manol]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

... simultaneous incarnations. The reason I thought of it as a possibility was due to what I think is insufficient testing in my known incarnation -- right here, right now. I was born into the single most rich, most powerful, and nearly free-est country on earth during a time when the Gospel was fully available. I have had X amount of temptation presented to me, Y amount of difficulties, and generally speaking, I've had it really good, with the Xs and Ys having low values. Meanwhile, my late mother-in-law was privileged to spent three years of her life in Soviet forced labor after WW2. She got thoroughly tested, beyond anything I've had to endure. Would I break if I were tested like she was? In my speculative scenario, I am being tested simultaneously in several separate "rooms," as it were, and I am compartmentalized so I'm not aware of the other "rooms" and the other me's are unaware of this me. Sounds nuts, right? But quantum mechanics sounds nuts, too, and it's real.

Maybe there's only one of us, and all lifetimes are simultaneous or quasi-simultaneous lives of that one?   Maybe doing unto others is doing unto ourself?  Maybe "love your neighbor as yourself" is actually a teaching about who we and they really are, in addition to being the second great commandment?  Maybe Joseph Smith was right, and we without them cannot be saved, nor they without us, because we are actually one? 

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

 Ever hear of entrainment?

I think we are all connected, and that connection may look like "entrainment".  Maybe the injunction to "be one" is about a paradigm shift that starts with scattered individuals, and gains traction through the ensuing entrainment. 

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by manol

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, manol said:

think we are all connected, and that connection may look like "entrainment". 

Quote

the process of making something have the same pattern or rhythm as something else

The above is entrainment. I prefer becoming fully aware of the patterns/rhythms around us rather than adopting them. One drumbeat played by a million drums vs a million instruments playing the ultimate harmony. I believe I know which one I would prefer.