A Psychologist Explains why Science does not communicate with Religion or Philosophy

[Teancum]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:26 PM, mfbukowski said:

You do it daily and it can change your life, but DOGMATISM locks you into one position forever and progress becomes impossible.

Most true believers in any religion are dogmatic about their beliefs.

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

If there is a god it is pretty lousy at communicating its message to the hairless apes that are currently the most intelligent species on this planet.

An alternative explanation is that there is a misunderstanding and misexpectation about God's purposes and designs for our mortal probation. For my part, I believe God is doing a fantastic job with me.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

An alternative explanation is that there is a misunderstanding and misexpectation about God's purposes and designs for our mortal probation. For my part, I believe God is doing a fantastic job with me.

How can one determine if there is misunderstanding. Do those who are evangelical Christians who reject the BoM and Mormonism as a cult, and who think  the Holy Ghost is telling them this have it right or wrong have a misunderstanding?  If yes why? And how do you determine this.

Further, when you say you believe god is doing a fantastic job with you what does that even mean?  Your statement is simply an assertion of faith.  I thought the way you do at once until I found out the what I thought god was telling me was correct really was an abject fraud.

And how do you or anyone else know what some alleged god's purpose and design is for what you term a mortal probation?  Why should we trust you?

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

And how do you or anyone else know what some alleged god's purpose and design is for what you term a mortal probation?  Why should we trust you?

One need not trust me. The capability to find evidence sufficient to one's satisfaction is available to all. I would assert that God is more concerned about the content of our character than the correctness of our beliefs. Or as Joseph Smith put it, "I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief."

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Nofear said:

One need not trust me. The capability to find evidence sufficient to one's satisfaction is available to all. I would assert that God is more concerned about the content of our character than the correctness of our beliefs. Or as Joseph Smith put it, "I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief."

So if I have good character yet reject the claims of Mormonism as an  abject fraud, and this based on my own study, prayers, ponderings and meditations then what in is my state before god, if god exists?

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So if I have good character yet reject the claims of Mormonism as an  abject fraud, and this based on my own study, prayers, ponderings and meditations then what in is my state before god, if god exists?

Terrestrial, most likely. Though how you approach that rejection could land you Telestial. Aggressive and open hostility is a Telestial trait.

[Teancum]

3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Terrestrial, most likely. Though how you approach that rejection could land you Telestial. Aggressive and open hostility is a Telestial trait.

So you disagree with @Nofear.  Character does not trump belief. I am not worried. Like Einstein, I have pretty much concluded that if there is some sort of god it is the god of Spinoza. And I am about certain it is not the god of LDS theology nor is the afterlife, if there is one, anything like you think it is.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So you disagree with @Nofear.  Character does not trump belief. I am not worried. Like Einstein, I have pretty much concluded that if there is some sort of god it is the god of Spinoza. And I am about certain it is not the god of LDS theology nor is the afterlife, if there is one, anything like you think it is.

If @Nofear believes your character somehow overrides your rejection of the truth in the scenario which you have provided, then yes, I would have to disagree with him, based on my reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76. Especially if that rejection comes after first having known the truth and having entered into covenants- as in your case.

 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

If @Nofear believes your character somehow overrides your rejection of the truth in the scenario which you have provided, then yes, I would have to disagree with him, based on my reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76. Especially if that rejection comes after first having known the truth and having entered into covenants- as in your case.

 

And how does one know if one knew the truth rather than just believed it.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

And how does one know if one knew the truth rather than just believed it.

Well, then if anyone could be considered as to fall into the following category it would be those:

"75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men." (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Well, then if anyone could be considered as to fall into the following category it would be those:

"75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men." (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

I am thinking this is a verse that I consider “as far as it’s translated correctly”, because if they were truly tricked, then why would it be their fault?

If I make a bad decision because someone lied to me, but it would have been a good decision if the lie were true, then why would it be my fault?

Edited May 13, 2024 by Calm

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Terrestrial, most likely. Though how you approach that rejection could land you Telestial. Aggressive and open hostility is a Telestial trait.

Yours is a common mistake made by most members of the church. A careful reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 reveal that both the inheritors of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms of glory will eventually come to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and receive forgiveness at his merciful hand. In the case of the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom of glory, they receive the gospel and have a testimony of Jesus but are not valiant in that testimony, therefore they receive the ministry of the Son but not the fullness of the Father. As far as the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory are concerned, they suffer for their sins in the spirit prison until they come to the realization that they will never be able to atone for their own sins, for only an infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of God himself can satisfy the demands of divine justice. When the inheritors of the telestial glory finally bow the knee and confess to God the Father that Jesus is the Christ, they are given the companionship of the Holy Spirit and the ministry of angels, blessings that someone who’s unredeemed could never properlyreceive and appreciate.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Do yourself a favor and don’t dismiss what I say out of hand. Believe me when I say I’ve done a many years long deep dive into this subject, and I can say with great confidence that the ‘Founding Fathers’ of the restored church all taught that the only way salvation can be obtained in any of the kingdoms of glory is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior, sincerely repentance  and receiving divine pardon through Christ and his atonement. Therefore the Book of Mormon is absolutely correct when it attests that the only way a man or woman can be saved is through accepting Jesus Christ as their redeeming Lord. The following article does a very good job of succinctly laying out all the facts.                                                                                             https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-20-no-1-2019/they-must-suffer-even-i-misconceptions-concerning-personal-payment-sin

[ZealouslyStriving]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am thinking this is a verse that I consider “as far as it’s translated correctly”, because if they were truly tricked, then why would it be their fault?

If I make a bad decision because someone lied to me, but it would have been a good decision if the lie were true, then why would it be my fault?

So a vision received by two witnesses, one being the Dispensation Head, is unreliable?

How many more people are going to talk themselves out of faith? 😔 This board is beginning to be depressing.

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Yours is a common mistake made by most members of the church. A careful reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 reveal that both the inheritors of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms of glory will eventually come to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and receive forgiveness at his merciful hand. In the case of the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom of glory, they receive the gospel and have a testimony of Jesus but are not valiant in that testimony, therefore they receive the ministry of the Son but not the fullness of the Father. As far as the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory are concerned, they suffer for their sins in the spirit prison until they come to the realization that they will never be able to atone for their own sins, for only an infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of God himself can satisfy the demands of divine justice. When the inheritors of the telestial glory finally bow the knee and confess to God the Father that Jesus is the Christ, they are given the companionship of the Holy Spirit and the ministry of angels, blessings that someone who’s unredeemed could never properlyreceive and appreciate.

 

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Do yourself a favor and don’t dismiss what I say out of hand. Believe me when I say I’ve done a many years long deep dive into this subject, and I can say with great confidence that the ‘Founding Fathers’ of the restored church all taught that the only way salvation can be obtained in any of the kingdoms of glory is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior, sincerely repentance  and receiving divine pardon through Christ and his atonement. Therefore the Book of Mormon is absolutely correct when it attests that the only way a man or woman can be saved is through accepting Jesus Christ as their redeeming Lord. The following article does a very good job of succinctly laying out all the facts.                                                                                             https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-20-no-1-2019/they-must-suffer-even-i-misconceptions-concerning-personal-payment-sin

I'm not sure where you think I'm misunderstanding.

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

a vision received by two witnesses, one being the Dispensation Head, is unreliable?

Are you claiming Joseph Smith was infallible?

I would agree it would be because they were not valiant, not because they were tricked.  I think one has to actually choose to reject the gospel in some fashion or in the next life not accept the Atonement completely rather than be tricked into not accepting it. 

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yet "god" seems to give lots teachings to humans that conflict with each other and also cause entrenched ideas that someone's "god" is telling them what is right so everyone else ought to do it and follow it.  As I have said a thousand times here, this is an unreliable method for determining truth and proper living.  If there is a god it is pretty lousy at communicating its message to the hairless apes that are currently the most intelligent species on this planet.

It seems that you are not understanding the difference between personal subjectivity which depends on one's opinion vs science which depends on universal acceptance of alleged "facts" which change all the time. when a new paradigm pops up

Religion is like politics- it is PERSONAL OPINION

Imagine some gizmo that could tell you which is the "best" president, and because it was "science" then it had to be "correct"

Just get some DNA or whatever, stick it in the gizmo, and it will tell us who the new president will be.

But people have different values.   It just seems that is how you see it.

Science itself is in many ways a religion of its own, with its own dogmatism.   I think you are missing the difference between subjective and objective.

Category error.  

It's that simple.   You want an example of dogmatism?   Science.

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

How many more people are going to talk themselves out of faith?

And what makes you think that belief lessens my faith?  It strengthens my belief in the love of God and his infinite mercy and justice. It allows me to believe other scripture and that God does not delight in making it more of a trivial game of who is most clever to see through lies than seriously wanting his children to come back home and have joy with him.  Men cannot steal others’s exaltation, someone must willingly refuse it knowing what it is. 

Edited May 13, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Well, then if anyone could be considered as to fall into the following category it would be those:

"75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men." (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

How could they know if they were blinded?  Blind people can’t know (the analogy being light is truth).  And it says nothing about them once knowing and then willing choosing to forget that knowledge. 

I don’t see God allowing good men to be conned out of exaltation.  Exaltation depending on not being gullible enough, not being too trusting….children are the most trusting of all. They believe all sorts of lies and craftiness and yet God says we are to be like them. So my guess is either Joseph understood or differently than we do today or some nuances got lost in the translation. 

Honorable men who choose not to be valiant because they did not value being one with God the most in their life fits the scriptures that shine the brightest to me.  

So that is a verse that I am happy to leave aside to let Christ explain it when he cares to.   I don’t see any reason to accept one scripture when it contradicts with others and would make them wrong if I insisted the other has to be right.  One scripture slightly wrong versus many scriptures all wrong….I will take the first. 

Edited May 13, 2024 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

35 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So a vision received by two witnesses, one being the Dispensation Head, is unreliable?

How many more people are going to talk themselves out of faith? 😔 This board is beginning to be depressing.

Don't let it get to you.   All criticism I have ever seen here is based on logical errors caused typically by semantic confusion.  I have yet to see a "good argument" against the church, just semantic confusion.  It drives me nuts to see the same...... hmmm..... stuff.... over and over

[ZealouslyStriving]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

How could they know if they were blinded?  Blind people can’t know (the analogy being light is truth).  And it says nothing about them once knowing and then willing choosing to forget that knowledge. 
 

I don’t see God allowing good men to be conned out of exaltation.  Exaltation depending on not being gullible enough, not being too trusting….children are the most trusting of all. They believe all sorts of lies and craftiness and yet God says we are to be like them. So my guess is either Joseph understood or differently than we do today or some nuances got lost in the translation. 

Those deceived by the craftiness of man are those that had the truth and let themselves be talked out of it, or out of the valiance, by the philosophies of the world. I actually believe the Terrestrial Kingdom will be filled with a lot of Church members, and that will be a lot more current non-members in some level of the Celestial Kingdom than people realize. Becoming a member of the Church and receiving covenants adds much more responsibility to your head, and the more covenants you receive the greater the responsibility, thus greater the loss of blessings if you turn from it.

It causes great pain to my heart to know that those who were sealed in the Temple, but were then lead out of the Church will someday look at their beloved spouse for a final time, with clear knowledge of what they gave up, and have to say goodbye.

Edited May 13, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

So if I have good character yet reject the claims of Mormonism as an  abject fraud, and this based on my own study, prayers, ponderings and meditations then what in is my state before god, if god exists?

That is YOUR infallible religion called "science"that only looks at human perception but not ALL of human experience .

Yes, Wikipedia, hoping to keep it simple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_empiricism

 

Quote

 

Radical empiricism

Radical empiricism is a philosophical doctrine put forth by William James. It asserts that experience includes both particulars and relations between those particulars, and that therefore both deserve a place in our explanations. In concrete terms: Any philosophical worldview is flawed if it stops at the physical level and fails to explain how meaning, values and intentionality can arise from that.^[1]

Radical empiricism[edit]

Radical empiricism is a postulate, a statement of fact, and a conclusion, says James in The Meaning of Truth. The postulate is that "the only things that shall be debatable among philosophers shall be things definable in terms drawn from experience." The fact is that our experience contains disconnected entities as well as various types of connections; it is full of meaning and values. The conclusion is that our worldview does not need "extraneous trans-empirical connective support, but possesses in its own right a concatenated or continuous structure."

Postulate[edit]

The postulate is a basic statement of the empiricist method: Our theories shouldn't incorporate supernatural or transempirical entities. Empiricism is a theory of knowledge that emphasizes the role of experience, especially sensory perception, in the formation of ideas, while discounting a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation. James allows that transempirical entities may exist, but that it's not fruitful to talk about them.

Fact[edit]

James' factual statement is that our experience is not just a stream of data, but a complex process that's full of meaning. We see objects in terms of what they mean to us and we see causal connections between phenomena. Experience is "double-barreled"; it has both a content ("sense data") and a reference, and empiricists unjustly try to reduce experience to bare sensations, according to James. Such a "thick" description of conscious experience was already part of William James' monumental work The Principles of Psychology in 1890, more than a decade before he first wrote about radical empiricism.

It differs notably from the traditional empiricist view of Locke and Hume, who see experience in terms of atoms like patches of color and soundwaves, which are in themselves meaningless and need to be interpreted by ratiocination before we can act upon them.

Conclusion[edit]

James concludes that experience is full of connections and that these connections are part of what is actually experienced:

Just so, I maintain, does a given undivided portion of experience, taken in one context of associates, play the part of a knower, of a state of mind, of 'consciousness'; while in a different context the same undivided bit of experience plays the part of a thing known, of an objective 'content.' In a word, in one group it figures as a thought, in another group as a thing. And, since it can figure in both groups simultaneously we have every right to speak of it as subjective and objective, both at once. (James 1912, Essay I)

 

 

 

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Those deceived by the craftiness of man are those that had the truth and let themselves be talked out of it, or out of the valiance, by the philosophies of the world

Yeah, I don’t buy it. If it was so easy to lose exaltation, to lose our loved ones, to lose what we really want, I don’t think we would be so joyous in coming here. 

Edited May 13, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

39 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

It causes great pain to my heart to know that those who were sealed in the Temple, but were then lead out of the Church will someday look at their beloved spouse for a final time, with clear knowledge of what they gave up, and have to say goodbye.

I guess it is a tender mercy that I will never have to deal with this hell.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yeah, I don’t buy it. If it was so easy to lose exaltation, to lose our loved ones, to lose what we really want, I don’t think we would be so joyous in coming here. 

I sometimes wonder if premortal spirits are really just idiots.

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Teancum said:

Most true believers in any religion are dogmatic about their beliefs.

And the absolute most dogmatic of all religions is called "Science" and they are only using half the data available to them.