A Psychologist Explains why Science does not communicate with Religion or Philosophy

[Calm]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Don't tell me after a few decades of unrestrained choice of beautiful people, and with impunity, you or your spouse wouldn't succumb to cheat!

Telestial beings are free of sin and therefore would not desire to cheat.

There are plenty of couples who have had chances to cheat and don’t in mortality and I highly doubt it was simply because the partners are not beautiful enough.  Assuming everyone would if given the chance and reason enough (“beautiful people”) is cynical and unrealistic.

My guess would be it’s much more likely that boredom in and of itself would have to be the primary reason for dissolution of the relationship as immorality won’t exist in any kingdom of God’s glory.  But why boredom after millennia of marriage would happen for Telestial beings and not Celestial beings (I don’t think exalted beings stay together out of a sense of duty or “for the children”) I have no clue.  Possibly because Telestial are too self centered to care enough to out the effort in to keeping the relationship fresh, but even if that is true, why wouldn’t Terrestrial beings be able to have eternal marriage relationships even if not involving some aspects of Celestial marriage?

Plus if boredom can happen for marriage, it seems likely it will be an issue for everything else.  One by one, all activities cease to keep one’s interest until one’s whole existence is an exercise in boredom.  Not heaven at all, but hell.

Much more likely imo we have the capacity as eternal beings to avoid boredom (as in removing that emotion).  Perhaps boredom is actually a sin, a rejection of the beauty of God’s creations, including ourselves.  If so, I don’t see any reason for relationships to fail in the Telestial any more than they would in the Celestsial.

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They lack the power and ability to act and keep promises the same way exalted beings, sealed to God, do. They cannot help it because the personal, mortal limitations they carry with them into the telestial world have not been offset by divine grace.

There are plenty of mortal beings that keep promises, who value honor, one’s word is one’s bond, etc.

Edited May 16, 2024 by Calm

[CV75]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

CFR 

The basic reference I already gave, is that the Holy Spirit of promise gives the power to continue covenants, and this is only given to celestial and exalted people. It's a scriptural principle repeated many times, an immediate example I Googled is D&C 29:29, "And now, behold, I say unto you, never at any time have I declared from mine own mouth that they [the wicked] should return, for where I am they cannot come, for they have no power." D&C 76 uses the word "power" a bit, and by searching the page you can see how those who are not exalted lack power to experience celestial life which includes sealed and continuing covenant relationships.

But read the articles I linked, they adress this too.

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You've been married 43 years and still think sex is all about the "full physical state," and not the connection of mental states? I

I think it is more the way the Law of Chastity is applied in mortality that is leading Teancum to mention the physical side of sex as part of the eternal relationship.  We focus on the physical act of sex in discussing how the Law of Chastity is broken, though emotional adultery would qualify as much as physical adultery when God is the judge even if membership councils don’t get called for that reason.
 

 But that rationale doesn’t work with a sinless population where the Law of Chastity would not be broken.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

the Holy Spirit of promise gives the power to continue covenants

Isn’t more that it authorized covenants made with God as opposed to actually being able to keep a promise one makes?

Covenants can be made without God (in scripture there are the unfortunate covenants of secret combinations, for example).

One can draw up contracts with each other anytime one wants…my parents did it all the time in my youth.  One cannot get the contract enforced by the government unless it is involved itself (contract is registered with the government as dictated by the government). And in many cases these contracts are throughly honoured/fulfilled by the participants.  Why couldn’t the same thing happen with covenants?

Edited May 16, 2024 by Calm

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Telestial beings are free of sin and therefore would not desire to cheat.

There are plenty of couples who have had chances to cheat and don’t in mortality and I highly doubt it was simply because the partners are not beautiful enough.  Assuming everyone would if given the chance and reason enough (“beautiful people”) is cynical and unrealistic.

My guess would be it’s much more likely that boredom in and of itself would have to be the primary reason for dissolution of the relationship as immorality won’t exist in any kingdom of God’s glory.  But why boredom after millennia of marriage would happen for Telestial beings and not Celestial beings (I don’t think exalted beings stay together out of a sense of duty or “for the children”) I have no clue.  Possibly because Telestial are too self centered to care enough to out the effort in to keeping the relationship fresh, but even if that is true, why wouldn’t Terrestrial beings be able to have eternal marriage relationships even if not involving some aspects of Celestial marriage?

Plus if boredom can happen for marriage, it seems likely it will be an issue for everything else.  One by one, all activities cease to keep one’s interest until one’s whole existence is an exercise in boredom.  Not heaven at all, but hell.

Much more likely imo we have the capacity as eternal beings to avoid boredom (as in removing that emotion).  Perhaps boredom is actually a sin, a rejection of the beauty of God’s creations, including ourselves.  If so, I don’t see any reason for relationships to fail in the Telestial any more than they would in the Celestsial.

I thought the desire is not the sin, but given long enough, a telestial attitude will impel someone to cheat. Telestial people are only human, with insufficient grace to act like gods. Even when they are free of sin, they eventually lapse if the covenant relationship with Christ is broken through neglect, lack of progress, etc. -- this is why the Holy Spirit of promise is so important. Even D&C says they will suffer in the flesh if they lapse.

I'm also thinking that telestial law allows "lapsing" or "sinful" behavior that is simply not part of exalted life. The Judgement Day is over; do whatever the "telestial" you want! Can't break any of the 10 Commandments; the higher laws, yes.

For those who believe telestial people can progress into exaltation, their telestial contracts would need to be abandoned and replaced with on with Christ and ratified by the Holy Spirit of promise. So they have an end in this context as well, and they are not the same people, but new creatures entering into them.

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Isn’t more that it authorized covenants made with God as opposed to actually being able to keep a promise one makes?

Covenants can be made without God (in scripture there are the unfortunate covenants of secret combinations, for example).

Yes, covenants can be made without God and against His purposes, but they are not sustainable/eternal and will eventually be broken by the parties entering them (see how many times the secret combinators double-cross each other -- they can hardly help it).

ETA (saw your edit): I think a factor in the inability to continue an interpersonal contract in the telestial kingdom is time and endurance, but I've been saying that quite a bit. Nothing and no one can endure anything better or longer than Christ (above and below all things), so if we are not sealed to Him and receiving that kind of grace, we will not endure.

Edited May 16, 2024 by CV75

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm also thinking that telestial law allows "lapsing" or "sinful" behavior…

How could it when God cannot tolerate any sin and the kingdoms of heaven are of his glory?

And where would the motivation of sin come from if someone has be purged of such?

Please show references that suggest sinning is possible in any of the heavens as that seems quite contrary to scripture.

Edited May 16, 2024 by Calm

[ksfisher]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

why wouldn’t Terrestrial beings be able to have eternal marriage relationships even if not involving some aspects of Celestial marriage?

I don't think there's any reason why two Terrestrial beings couldn't stand in close proximity to each other for eternity. 

I think the part that the Terrestrial beings will be missing is being one, as in how the Father and Son are one and what Christ commands the apostles to be. 

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

How could it when God cannot tolerate any sin and the kingdoms of heaven are of his glory?

And where would the motivation of sin come from if someone has be purged of such?

Please show references that suggest sinning is possible in any of the heavens as that seems quite contrary to scripture.

If each kingdom has different laws then it would seem possible that what is a sin in a higher kingdom may not be in one lower. 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

they are not sustainable/eternal and will eventually be broken by the parties entering them

This seems to be assuming the end.  What is to prevent two people from keeping to a promise that benefits them both?

[Teancum]

51 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I missed this gem! You've been married 43 years and still think sex is all about the "full physical state," and not the connection of mental states? I am saying that the mental states of telestial people cannot sustain a long-term marriage relationship. No one will stop them from trying, but they just don't have what it takes.

Yea now you are just being stupid and an idiot. 

Really this is all a stupid discussion.  There is no celestial, terrestrial or telestial kingdoms. It is all make believe.  And telestial is certainly a made up word.  D

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I don't think there's any reason why two Terrestrial beings couldn't stand in close proximity to each other for eternity. 

I think the part that the Terrestrial beings will be missing is being one, as in how the Father and Son are one and what Christ commands the apostles to be. 

This makes much more sense than sinning causing a failure of a Telestial relationship.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

Really this is all a stupid discussion.  There is no celestial, terrestrial or telestial kingdoms. It is all make believe.  And telestial is certainly a made up word.  D

When you enter a speculative discussion, you need to assume the required parameters of the speculation or why bother joining in the first place?  Don’t be the spoil sport.  

[CV75]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

How could it when God cannot tolerate any sin and the kingdoms of heaven are of his glory?

And where would the motivation of sin come from if someone has be purged of such?

Please show references that suggest sinning is possible in any of the heavens as that seems quite contrary to scripture.

That is why I put them in quotes. It's a yes and no proposition. Was the devil's side in the war in heaven sinful? Is that war continuing here and are we sinning? Are resurrected beings still waging that war, or suffering its effects for sinning? Are they sinning if they live the law of their lesser kingdom of glory? Is it a sin not to receive of his fulness in the eternal world (D&C 76:86), or to receive not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant (v 101)? I see these as references showing that sinning is possible in the telestial kingdom (at least!).

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Was the devil's side in the war in heaven sinful?

Were we in kingdoms of glory in the preexistence? (We were living with God, but that does not mean we were aware of his glory.)

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Is it a sin not to receive of his fulness in the eternal world (D&C 76:86

Would it be a true gift if we had to accept it or be punished? 

Can God allow sin to exist without punishment and be a God of justice?

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Are resurrected beings still waging that war, or suffering its effects for sinning?

Not much of a Final Judgment if they are.

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It's a yes and no proposition.

I do not understand what you mean by this.

Edited May 16, 2024 by Calm

[CV75]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

This seems to be assuming the end.  What is to prevent two people from keeping to a promise that benefits them both?

Their ultimate inability to do so without Christ.

[CV75]

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yea now you are just being stupid and an idiot. 

Really this is all a stupid discussion.  There is no celestial, terrestrial or telestial kingdoms. It is all make believe.  And telestial is certainly a made up word.  D

Ha-ha! I got you to say it! I just had to communicate on your level to do so  ! 

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Their ultimate inability to do so without Christ.

Like I said, you are begging the question here.

[CV75]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Were we in kingdoms of glory in the preexistence? (We were living with God, but that does not mean we were aware of his glory.)

Would it be a true gift if we had to accept it or be punished? 

Can God allow sin to exist without punishment and be a God of justice?

Not much of a Final Judgment if they are.

I do not understand what you mean by this.

I'll answer these backwards. Whether something is sinful in the resurrection can be answered yes in some ways and no in other. After all is said and done, I say that people can choose to reject God's ways, even if their knees bow and their tongues confess by choice. I choose to qualify that as "sinning."

I agree that the war ends with the Final Judgement, but that the effects of sin continue to affect their ability to live in a higher kingdom even though they are washed clean.

Adam and Eve, if God was a liar, could have lived forever in their sins. But He is a God of truth, mercy and grace, so they could live forever with the effects of sin to the degree they choose to be redeemed. I consider that to be living in the sins, or the effects of sin, that remain. A major effect is the inability to endure personal promises and relationships. That is why a covenant relationship with Christ is essential for exaltation, and undermines a fulness in lesser kingdoms.

I think the gift of agency is where all other gifts begin. God's intent is that we use it to obtain the fullness of eternal life. To abuse it, which I consider a sin, is to lose it. So i consider rejecting the purpose of the gift a sin also.

If the war in heaven continues here, and the effects continue forever, then yes, kingdoms of glory intersect each estate. We can live a telestial, terrestrial and celestial kind of life here in mortality. In the preexistence, there were evidently at least two. 

 

 

 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

choose to qualify that as "sinning."

That is irrelevant if God doesn’t though.  You can’t say (logically) I am going to define a word this way instead of the way everyone else is using and therefore my argument is right.

It is clear God allows people to reject blessings.  It is not clear he punishes them if they don’t do more than just say “no think you, I appreciate the offer, but it is just not me.”
 

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effects of sin continue to affect their ability to live in a higher kingdom even though they are washed clean.

Except God says once forgiven by God, it’s as if they never existed.

Got to go.  Will finish later, so you may want to wait to respond to this post.

Edited May 16, 2024 by Calm

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Like I said, you are begging the question here.

I am assuming (I believe) that Christ is the only One with the power to keep His word, and on His terms.

[CV75]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

That is irrelevant if God doesn’t though.  You can’t say (logically) I am going to define a word this way instead of the way everyone else is using and therefore my argument is right.

It is clear God allows people to reject blessings.  
 

Except God says once forgiven by God, it’s as if they never existed.

Got to go.  Will finish later, so you may want to wait to respond to this post.

I'm not exactly sure how everyone else is using the word, so I'm describing my meaning. What word would you use for what I am saying? We can use that.

I am grateful that telestial people are forgiven when they have personally suffered the price, and that their sins are as if they never existed, but the effects of their sins that are as if they no longer exist are as if they did.

[Anonymous Mormon]

On 5/16/2024 at 12:10 AM, mfbukowski said:

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle!

You are absolutely on the right track!  The key to it all, IMO, is below in my Rorty quotes- we must understand that ALL we CAN know about "reality"  HAS to be created from a human perspective, because what we are actually seeing/ hearing!   Every word, every perception, every word spoken for ALL HISTORY including ALL PERCEIVED by "SCIENTISTS", written and described are CREATED by A HUMAN MIND.

THINK about it!!!   What non- human experience do we KNOW ABOUt?   Even God is a super-human but a human nevertheless BEFORE he was deified.

We CANNOT get outside our bodies - until we see "face to face", but now we are looking at the world through the MIRROR ("glass darkly") of what limits the living human brain.

It's like having permanently tinted sunglasses on, and trying to discuss colors we have never seen as they are!!

It's not that the LIGHT changes, but its PERCEPTION depends on how it is perceived and tested.

So yes!

And describing such vague sensations as the Still Small Voice, that varies in so many ways?   And then having a person trying to "describe" what he THINKS he heard from someone like a prophet-  does that even have a CHANCE of being described correctly by someone who has never had the experience??

It's like a blind man trying to comprehend the "urgency" of a red sign, or the bright attention-getting burst of light of the color of yellow.   How do you describe it to anyone who has not experienced it?

Not possible.   Good for you!!  Think about this and repeat it mentally until it becomes part of you!

Rorty:

 

I've been trying to wrap my head around this concept, but I don't know enough Physics to do it any justice.

D&C says, "There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter."

Additionally, I think we safely can infer that in order to see spiritual matter one has to be translated.

So in theory, it might just be impossible for mankind to create a scientific experiment that can test anything spiritual. It's possible that the experiment is started, but once we measure something it becomes less refined and changes state.

It makes me think of all the ghost hunters (which are mostly bogus and cons) where they say they had some ghostly manifestation but it can never be captured by their equipment. Maybe some of them are really telling the truth?

I am wondering if anyone with a true grasp of quantum theory and physics can opine to how it applies to the gospel concepts of spiritual matter?

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I've been trying to wrap my head around this concept, but I don't know enough Physics to do it any justice.

I thought this was decent for the Uncertainty Principle…it starts on the Principle around 7:30, but the earlier bits help you understand that.

If you don’t get it the first time through, I would suggest watching it again and then if it clicks and you are going that makes sense, taking a day break and then watching it again once or twice so it really sinks in.  That way you will remember er it well enough you won’t have to start from scratch next time it comes up even if you are not secure in your understanding enough to teach it to someone else (which is my standard for understanding science).

Another way to approach the video if it feels like too much info at once is to take it one concept at a time.  Stop and replay a section until you are secure that you get it.  Then move on to the next part.  But watch it once all the way through at the beginning so you have a general idea where it’s going, what the purpose of those concepts are for.

If it’s not making sense, try watching it two or three times if you are getting some of it, but not all.  If nothing is clicking and you still want to figure it out what the Principle is, try other videos as they may present it in a way that works for you.

Edited May 21, 2024 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

45 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

It makes me think of all the ghost hunters (which are mostly bogus and cons) where they say they had some ghostly manifestation but it can never be captured by their equipment. Maybe some of them are really telling the truth?

I am wondering if anyone with a true grasp of quantum theory and physics can opine to how it applies to the gospel concepts of spiritual matter?

Well the bad news is that I am definitely NOT a well informed student of physics and quantum theory, but the good news is that I am a student of philosophy for quite a while, at least 44 years, because I do not believe your question is ABOUT physics but more about what physics can teach us, due to their methodology.

First off, physics is capable of teaching us about how the human "mind"/brain PERCEIVES "reality" but never gets outside,really, the limitations OF human perception.

An analogy for this might be sunglasses.   Suppose you were born with sunglasses on, very dark ones, and they were never removed. What would you know about the experiences people WITHOUT such sunglasses have of the color sighted people call "Yellow"??

How do dictionaries define terms like "yellow"?

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yel·low

/ˈyelō/

adjective

1.

of the color between green and orange in the spectrum, a primary subtractive color complementary to blue; colored like ripe lemons or egg yolks.

"curly yellow hair"

 

But notice this never DESCRIBES the full human EXPERIENCE of "yellow" so that a person who had never seen yellow would still not know anything about the EXPERIENCE YELLOW itself.  They would not know about its brightness that "pops" out at you- or why it is often used on traffic signs, with red, to attract the eye.In fact, in a black and white world, yellow just becomes "white".

Those kinds of descriptions require also descriptions of the conditions under which the brightness, say, is observed.   The terminology is that the "relations" of the color must be a PART of a true description of yellow.  "Under conditions xyz yellow LOOKS LIKE....."

The relevance of this is that in experience with the Holy Spirit- we can describe, perhaps the chemical reactions in the brain with such experiences but we cannot EVER describe the "burning in the bosom" of religious experience just as one cannot the subjective experience of "yellow".

So billions of people have had some feeling about some "Higher Force" in their lives, but science cannot describe the FEELING of it.

So the only thing science is good for, in discussing religion might be to count all who have some "sense" of some experience of something "greater than themselves".

So is the spirit scientifically observable?  Only if you are looking at  EXPERIENCE REPORTS of those who believe they have had some kind of religious experience.

We can take this further, into Wiliam James' "Radical Empiricism" if anyone cares, or if you want to study this farther