Calm Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 Just now, The Nehor said: I sometimes wonder if premortal spirits are really just idiots. I highly doubt it. Not if we were swimming in the light and love of God. Imo, that would put us Prebirth way above our capacity now. But I don’t think we need our full capacity now because God will wait for judgment (his and ours) until we no longer see through the glass darkly as that is both just and merciful. I don’t believe mortality is for him to judge us (that part of judgment will be about all of the eternal us, not just the not all there, barely sighted, barely understanding toddlers stumbling around trying to keep our balance that we are now), but rather it’s for us to learn how to judge or rather how to value what’s important to us…which is why the limits, obstacles and struggles are necessary. You don’t really understand how important something is to you if it is just handed to you. My belief that premortal spirits were a lot more aware of what was to come than we are—after all, all they had to do is watch others who went through it first to figure it out—is one of the reasons I believe it’s is really as good as has been promised (assuming half at least of what has been shared by prophets about how we got here was understood well enough to be transmitted to the rest of us by language).
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 55 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: It causes great pain to my heart to know that those who were sealed in the Temple, but were then lead out of the Church will someday look at their beloved spouse for a final time, with clear knowledge of what they gave up, and have to say goodbye. Does God ban people from visiting each other in lower kingdoms in your view?
ZealouslyStriving Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 25 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Does God ban people from visiting each other in lower kingdoms in your view? Those of a higher order will minister in some way to those of a lower order- I don't believe it involves casual vacays to visit old acquaintances. Edited May 13, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: Those of a higher order will minister in some way to those of a lower order- I don't believe it involves casual vacays to visit old acquaintances. No im talking about people hanging down in the lower kingdoms. They aren’t allowed to visit each other?
ZealouslyStriving Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: No im talking about people hanging down in the lower kingdoms. They aren’t allowed to visit each other? This is what the scriptures say- Doctrine and Covenants 76: "86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; 87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial. 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation." Nothing about visiting. Edited May 13, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving
ZealouslyStriving Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 13 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: No im talking about people hanging down in the lower kingdoms. They aren’t allowed to visit each other? Oh, I get it now. Visiting your (former) spouse- if you're even in the same glory- is quite a downgrade from being eternally married to that person.
mfbukowski Posted May 13, 2024 Author Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 14 hours ago, Teancum said: Most true believers in any religion are dogmatic about their beliefs. Which means they are not "TRUE" believers because truth is constantly changing as science does, right? So if science changes, it is relativism and truth then is relativism. If science does not change, it is always true AND dogmatic. As they say in all Universities every 15 sentences, "Right?" Hear a college lecture recently? They are seeking true believers by doing so I guess. Dogmatism- right? https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-people-saying-right-kane-harrison#:~:text=I have found that when,or agreement from the listener. Edited May 13, 2024 by mfbukowski 2
Calm Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 40 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: No im talking about people hanging down in the lower kingdoms. They aren’t allowed to visit each other? We are supposed to be close friends (maybe even treat them as family when appropriate) with those we minister to in this life, to hang out with them, etc. I see no reason why it would be different in the next life at a bare minimum (I think it is most likely we help them to progress as we do here, otherwise, what is the purpose of ministering?) Edited May 13, 2024 by Calm
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 8 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said: Oh, I get it now. Visiting your (former) spouse- if you're even in the same glory- is quite a downgrade from being eternally married to that person. In what way?
MiserereNobis Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 10 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said: Those deceived by the craftiness of man are those that had the truth and let themselves be talked out of it, or out of the valiance, by the philosophies of the world. I actually believe the Terrestrial Kingdom will be filled with a lot of Church members, and that will be a lot more current non-members in some level of the Celestial Kingdom than people realize. Becoming a member of the Church and receiving covenants adds much more responsibility to your head, and the more covenants you receive the greater the responsibility, thus greater the loss of blessings if you turn from it. It causes great pain to my heart to know that those who were sealed in the Temple, but were then lead out of the Church will someday look at their beloved spouse for a final time, with clear knowledge of what they gave up, and have to say goodbye. Sounds like it’s better not to be LDS in this life? At least a better chance at a better afterlife?
ZealouslyStriving Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 18 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Sounds like it’s better not to be LDS in this life? At least a better chance at a better afterlife? Not if they have knowingly chosen to not enter the covenant path: "25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him. 26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. 27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!" ( 2 Nephi 9) --- "7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; 9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts." (Doctrine and Covenants 137) 🤙
Teancum Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 13 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said: If @Nofear believes your character somehow overrides your rejection of the truth in the scenario which you have provided, then yes, I would have to disagree with him, based on my reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76. Especially if that rejection comes after first having known the truth and having entered into covenants- as in your case. Thank you for confirming my point. And this is the problem with religious claims. You are certain you have the truth. And so do billions of others. And their truths and yours conflict. And you all are just going on faith and really don't know the outcome of what happens when we die. If you want to live your life subservient to a false religious claim more power to you. Just leave everyone else alone. 1
Teancum Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 11 hours ago, mfbukowski said: You want an example of dogmatism? Science. Hardly. But if it makes you feel good in your fuzzy confusing philosophy to say this then go for it.
Teancum Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: That is YOUR infallible religion called "science"that only looks at human perception but not ALL of human experience . Yes, Wikipedia, hoping to keep it simple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_empiricism No. According to you if this is where my search has led me then my truth is as good as yours. Why is your conclusion more correct then mine about Mormonism? And science is not a religion and I don't treat it as such. You are looking rather silly to keep saying this. Edited May 13, 2024 by Teancum
Nofear Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 13 hours ago, Teancum said: So if I have good character yet reject the claims of Mormonism as an abject fraud, and this based on my own study, prayers, ponderings and meditations then what in is my state before god, if god exists? Being good in character is always a good thing. I won't begrudge or judge another's sincere advocacy of what they believe to be the truth. I reasonably persuaded that we mere mortals are mostly wrong most of the time. At least in the sciences, it is very much my experience that is correct. Humans are lousy at physics and our intuitions are horrible. I also strongly believe a good portion of what I believe to be true is incorrect. Unfortunately, I don't know what those beliefs are else I'd stop believing them (hopefully). That said, it becomes ever so more important to have a foundation built upon correct beliefs. The house we build up on top of it will likely be shoddy construction. But, as Maren Morris puts it, "The house don't fall when the bones are good". Part of my foundation and "bones" are my personal experience/witness/testimony of Christ, the Atonement, and his Church. The house has not fallen nor shall it. Your foundation is different. Which is right? Time will tell. As Joseph Smith puts it "When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves." Nevertheless, I don't begrudge you in your sincere advocacy of that which you believe to be true. Personally I find it more efficacious and good to more expressly advocate to be true instead of spending time in counter-advocacy and tearing down others beliefs. I'm not bothered by it though. The challenges lobbed against my beliefs have caused me to think more deeply about some things with more careful consideration. Doing so has strengthened and enhanced some of my understandings and helped me shore up and correct some of my house's shoddy construction, add to it, and generally just make it bigger, better, stronger, and more beautiful. For that, I am grateful. 2
ZealouslyStriving Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Teancum said: Thank you for confirming my point. And this is the problem with religious claims. You are certain you have the truth. And so do billions of others. And their truths and yours conflict. And because there is conflict that means there is no truth? So the fact that there are scientists that disagree concerning climate change, string theory, etc... does that mean that all science is false? Seems like a logical fallacy. 35 minutes ago, Teancum said: And you all are just going on faith and really don't know the outcome of what happens when we die. We may not know everything, but we have a good idea. Do we have to know everything for something to be true? Seems like a logical fallacy. 35 minutes ago, Teancum said: If you want to live your life subservient to a false religious claim more power to you. Subservient - "Prepared to obey others unquestionably." And what exactly about my posts, or those of others, indicate that I/we do that? Seems your language indicates your motives- you want full autonomy and want to do whatever te da las ganas without answering to anyone. 35 minutes ago, Teancum said: Just leave everyone else alone. I extend to you the same invitation. 🤙 Edited May 13, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving
Calm Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 39 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: Not if they have knowingly chosen to not enter the covenant path: If they have been tricked, how is that “knowingly” choosing not to enter the path.
ZealouslyStriving Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Calm said: If they have been tricked, how is that “knowingly” choosing not to enter the path. You are misreading my post. If one hears the truth and chooses not to obey the truth because of the responsibility that comes with it, he has not been tricked- he has rebelled. Edited May 13, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving
Calm Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 25 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: You are misreading my post. If one hears the truth and chooses not to obey the truth because of the responsibility that comes with it, he has not been tricked- he has rebelled. So are the honorable men in verse 76:75 the ones you are speaking about rebelling with knowledge? If so, how have they been tricked/deceived? (I am not being rhetorical btw, this does sincerely appear to me to be a conflict between verses as I agree it is those who knowingly rebel and leave the covenant path intentionally that are transgressing the law they have been given; however, it doesn’t make sense to me that someone who has been deceived—which means they don’t know something is not the truth—into thinking there is no covenant path or that the covenant path is different than it really is has knowingly rebelled because this results in contradictions, such as the one MN points out where it is better not to know because you could knowingly rebel or be tricked into leaving the path.) Edited May 13, 2024 by Calm
Teancum Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: And the absolute most dogmatic of all religions is called "Science" and they are only using half the data available to them. No it is not. Science is a methodology. Are scientists biased? Sure. All humans are. But science does not expect you to obey their "commandments" or teach that you may burn in hell for rejecting the theory of evolutions. Nor does it seek to impose its theories on others because they think, without evidence, that some supernatural being is telling them this, that or the some other thing. I like discussing things with you but this line of argument you are making is nonsense. So tell me, why is the result of my searching, which includes prayers, study, pondering and mediation wrong about Mormonism and religion in general? 1
ZealouslyStriving Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 15 minutes ago, Calm said: So are the honorable men in verse 76:75 the ones you are speaking about rebelling with knowledge? If so, how have they been tricked? So you believe that essentially everyone has been tricked, and all are bound for Celestial Glory? With your recent comments about the Prophet Joseph and Doctrine and Covenants 76 - do you even believe it was a real vision or do you think they made it up or was just their imagination? Can anything Joseph taught be trusted in your view? Is there such a thing as objective truth? I honestly don't know where you are coming from most of the time.
Calm Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: So you believe that essentially everyone has been tricked, and all are bound for Celestial Glory? No, I believe mortality is about learning what is important to us. Iow, the very opposite of being tricked as we will need a full awareness of what things are in order to judge them for what they are and what they can give us. For those who in the end it is most important to be one with God, those will be blessed with that desire being fulfilled in the CK. For those that have other things that are more important to them, whatever that might be, they will choose to live elsewhere…at least until their hearts are changed by those who come to minister to them. Quote With your recent comments about the Prophet Joseph and Doctrine and Covenants 76 - do you even believe it was a real vision or do you think they made it up or was just their imagination? Can anything Joseph taught be trusted in your view? I believe it and others were real visions conveyed to the best of his ability. Same with other prophets’ visions and revelations. Many admit their own fallible nature and the scriptures teach of this fallible nature, so why wouldn’t I believe them? I trust what the Spirit confirms to me as the scriptures and prophets have taught me to do. Quote I honestly don't know where you are coming from most of the time. I am not always sharing my own POV, but may be trying to approach a topic from how others see it. While I try to remember to make this clear, in an ongoing conversation I assume those responding to me will remember when I do this…which may be a faulty assumption, so I also try and include things like “others may see it as….” to indicate it is not my own POV I am exploring at that time, but sometimes I forget. But a lot of my comments are me thinking out loud, taking apart ideas to see if they can be reassembled in new ways. It doesn’t mean I doubt God or the Spirit or that Joseph and others are prophets…but if prophets were all that we need to know the truth, what need of the Spirit and God would we have? I believe God allows prophets to make mistakes so that we are required to go to him for truth and understanding. The primary purpose of prophets is to get us asking questions that end with us going on our knees or in our closets or walking up the mountain in some fashion as well as to help us identify what is a good, basic discipleship that can keep us open to the Spirit. Edited May 13, 2024 by Calm
Teancum Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 40 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: And because there is conflict that means there is no truth? So the fact that there are scientists that disagree concerning climate change, string theory, etc... does that mean that all science is false? No I did not say that. I said the method religion offers for finding truths are unreliable. Science does not rely on faith and some feeling or metaphysical experience to argue truth and then expect someone to follow it and obey it in order to reach the highest after life reward. Religions does. And there are thousands of differing answers from religion that is conflict with one another. 40 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: Seems like a logical fallacy. We may not know everything, but we have a good idea. Do we have to know everything for something to be true? You do not know anything about what your religion teaches. You have faith. That is now knowing at least the way LDS persons use it when they give a testimony. 40 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: Seems like a logical fallacy. Subservient - "Prepared to obey others unquestionably." And what exactly about my posts, or those of others, indicate that I/we do that? Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the waaayyaay. 40 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: Seems your language indicates your motives- you want full autonomy and want to do whatever te da las ganas without answering to anyone. Hardly. I just don't live my life anymore based on what some self proclaimed prophet tells me to do because god allegedly is telling them to tell us what to do. 40 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: I extend to you the same invitation. 🤙 I don't send missionaries out to convert anyone to my belief nor do I go to my LDS or other religious friends and treat them as lost sheep that need to be brought back into the fold. You and your religion does.
ZealouslyStriving Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Teancum said: No I did not say that. I said the method religion offers for finding truths are unreliable. You mean "try the experiment on the word" and see if it bears good fruit in your life? Seems pretty scientific to me. 17 minutes ago, Teancum said: Science does not rely on faith and some feeling or metaphysical experience to argue truth and then expect someone to follow it and obey it in order to reach the highest after life reward. Religions does. And there are thousands of differing answers from religion that is conflict with one another. 17 minutes ago, Teancum said: You do not know anything about what your religion teaches. How do you figure? 17 minutes ago, Teancum said: You have faith. That is now knowing at least the way LDS persons use it when they give a testimony. I would say that they've tried the experiment on the word and it has born fruit. Those are the testimonies I hear. Experiment-->Fruit-->Testimony 17 minutes ago, Teancum said: Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the waaayyaay. You should put quotes around that as it is a copyrighted song. 😋 17 minutes ago, Teancum said: Hardly. I just don't live my life anymore based on what some self proclaimed prophet tells me to do because god allegedly is telling them to tell us what to do. You only live life doing what you want to do. Yeah, I get it. 17 minutes ago, Teancum said: I don't send missionaries out to convert anyone to my belief nor do I go to my LDS or other religious friends and treat them as lost sheep that need to be brought back into the fold. You and your religion does. No, you send yourself out everyday to tell the Saints how foolish they are to believe and try to convince them of the "superiority" of science. Your kind of a "Science Missionary to Mormons"... don't fight it, own it. 🤙 Edited May 13, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving
Calm Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 25 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: Seems pretty scientific to me. Science doesn’t usually use a subjective result to judge an experiment though, at least “hard” science tries not too while ”good fruit” is subjective. There are some experiments that measure feelings and so subjectivity is an inherent part of the process, but there is an attempt to impose some objectivity where possible, such as using comparative scales in measurement, think of pain scales as in “what is your pain level today (these drive my daughter and I crazy because memory of pain is way too imprecise plus there are so many variables affecting perception of pain, so do they mean what level when we stop and pay attention to it, which will make it go up most likely or do they mean while we go through the day distracting ourselves, before we took the pain meds to come to the appointment or how we feel that second, etc). Experimenting isn’t automatically science. Edited May 13, 2024 by Calm
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