Zecharia 14. NO POLITICS PLEASE, Avoid taking sides.

[mfbukowski]

For all the OT scholars, I would like to find out how they interpret this chapter of scripture and whether or not it corresponds to what we see before our eyes, or something in the past, or yet in the future, or something else.

I am simply quoting the entire KJV chapter, so that one need not flip between a passage and the forum.   Please keep it scholarly and away from politics.

Quote

 

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ***, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

 

 

[Stargazer]

54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Please keep it scholarly and away from politics.

Good luck with that.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Put simply, Zechariah 14 (along with Zechariah 12) is a prophetic statement of the Day of the Lord - when God comes to rule in person on the earth. Zechariah 14 is quoted in John 7.

I think that we are nowhere near the moment of the second coming.

As far as the text goes, probably the most interesting commentary comes from Konrad Schaefer's 1995 article, "Zechariah 14: A Study in Allusion".  I used it in my 2009 article "Nephi and Goliath". Zechariah 14 is built around a series of earlier texts: Isaiah 2-4, Isaiah 13, Isaiah 30, Ezekiel 38-39 and 47, and Zephaniah 1. Much of the author of Zechariah's concern is about the earlier prophecies which simply failed to be fulfilled in the return from the Babylonian diaspora. They are rewritten to produce a future event. New Testament authors (especially John and the Johannine epistles) invoke Zechariah 14 - and there is an expectation that this will be fulfilled in the conflict which resulted in the expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem in 70 AD. Since that point in time, it is often brought up any time that there is believed to be something that points to the end of the world.

I think that the last few verses are interesting. The text in Zechariah 14 seems to side with Joel against Isaiah. Joel and Zechariah have a Jerusalem that is free from strangers and Canaanites - they are all excluded. Isaiah has all the peoples of the world coming to Jerusalem to worship - it's vision of Israel is inclusive.

Personally, I think that while it is perfectly fine to reinterpret texts (and prophesies) in our own contexts, problems occur when we assume that our readings are in some way the meaning of the text intended by its authors. While the current events are consuming our attention, and it is certain that there are plenty of people reading into these events a fulfillment of prophecy, it seems to me that this is simply wishful thinking for some. For LDS in particular, we have this problem - many decades ago, when I was young, I was part of a group of children who were being told that we were a part of the chosen generation - set to see the last days. Last Sunday was our young men's and young women's sacrament meeting - and I heard the same thing from the youth of today. These events seem like a lot - but realistically, the wars and the threats of war that we see today are relatively tame compared with the events of my parents youth and their parents youth. This is merely a sideshow ...

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

I think that we are nowhere near the moment of the second coming.

You may be right about this, but I kinda hope it will be in my lifetime. In any case, we are left to just do what is allowed to us until the Lord's time has arrived. However far in the future this may be.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

For LDS in particular, we have this problem - many decades ago, when I was young, I was part of a group of children who were being told that we were a part of the chosen generation - set to see the last days. Last Sunday was our young men's and young women's sacrament meeting - and I heard the same thing from the youth of today. These events seem like a lot - but realistically, the wars and the threats of war that we see today are relatively tame compared with the events of my parents youth and their parents youth. This is merely a sideshow ...

Thanks!

But SOMEDAY, if one has faith that it will actually happen, ("HOPE for things unseen"?) it may be "true" and some I am sure, will be the first to say "I told you so!" as the falling nukes give us the best fireworks show EVER!   Just remember to plug your ears before shockwave hits you.  You might get injured otherwise.

Edited May 2, 2024 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

For all the OT scholars, I would like to find out how they interpret this chapter of scripture and whether or not it corresponds to what we see before our eyes, or something in the past, or yet in the future, or something else.

I am simply quoting the entire KJV chapter, so that one need not flip between a passage and the forum.   Please keep it scholarly and away from politics.

 

No scholar here, but from what I’ve gathered over the years, the “day of the Lord” (and similarly, the “last days”) is any point in our lives when we reach a gospel-informed decision point. Applying the scriptures to myself, these kinds of prophecies remind and warn me how my wickedness is not happiness, my repentance is joyful, and they inspire me to follow the Lord. Applying them to history, we can see how the earlier chapters were fulfilled and how the later ones might be (history repeats itself, it will continue repeating itself). The Lord’s Prophet and the Holy Ghost will confirm fulfilment and how to prepare for and participate on the Lord’s side of their fulfillment.

As far as I can tell, Zechariah spoke of many things concerning Jerusalem (which I think represents the city, Zion, the covenant people, their obligations to the Lord, themselves, the Gentiles and others). The earlier chapters carry the same general theme as the last two chapters (gathering and redemption of Israel – descendants and adopted -- for the coming of the Lord), except the former are pre-Ascension the  last are  post-Ascension. But whatever his intentions, I’m sure he knew the Lord’s future prophets would apply scripture properly for the sake of leading the covenant people, just as he did for his contemporaries. Part of this is their having the keys to give us the Holy Ghost.

As with the Millennium, I believe the day of the Lord and the last days have already begun, and in some ways are already here, in the same way President Kimball put it: “When Satan is bound in a single home—when Satan is bound in a single life—the Millennium has already begun in that home, in that life” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 172). When we are ready to receive Him, the day of the Lord has already begun in our home, in our life.

When all is said and done, I believe these events will unfold and He will literally come just as Zechariah put it in Chapter 14. Hopefully I will live to see it, and have gotten ready by the time the Prophet starts getting into the weeds about it! He will have his own revelations by that time, but will use Zechariah and others as reference points. Until then, current events and how we handle them by the gift of the Holy Ghost are part of our personal preparation.

Edited May 2, 2024 by CV75

[Tacenda]

changed mind

Edited May 2, 2024 by Tacenda

[CV75]

On 5/1/2024 at 6:48 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

Put simply, Zechariah 14 (along with Zechariah 12) is a prophetic statement of the Day of the Lord - when God comes to rule in person on the earth. Zechariah 14 is quoted in John 7.

I think that we are nowhere near the moment of the second coming.

As far as the text goes, probably the most interesting commentary comes from Konrad Schaefer's 1995 article, "Zechariah 14: A Study in Allusion".  I used it in my 2009 article "Nephi and Goliath". Zechariah 14 is built around a series of earlier texts: Isaiah 2-4, Isaiah 13, Isaiah 30, Ezekiel 38-39 and 47, and Zephaniah 1. Much of the author of Zechariah's concern is about the earlier prophecies which simply failed to be fulfilled in the return from the Babylonian diaspora. They are rewritten to produce a future event. New Testament authors (especially John and the Johannine epistles) invoke Zechariah 14 - and there is an expectation that this will be fulfilled in the conflict which resulted in the expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem in 70 AD. Since that point in time, it is often brought up any time that there is believed to be something that points to the end of the world.

I think that the last few verses are interesting. The text in Zechariah 14 seems to side with Joel against Isaiah. Joel and Zechariah have a Jerusalem that is free from strangers and Canaanites - they are all excluded. Isaiah has all the peoples of the world coming to Jerusalem to worship - it's vision of Israel is inclusive.

Personally, I think that while it is perfectly fine to reinterpret texts (and prophesies) in our own contexts, problems occur when we assume that our readings are in some way the meaning of the text intended by its authors. While the current events are consuming our attention, and it is certain that there are plenty of people reading into these events a fulfillment of prophecy, it seems to me that this is simply wishful thinking for some. For LDS in particular, we have this problem - many decades ago, when I was young, I was part of a group of children who were being told that we were a part of the chosen generation - set to see the last days. Last Sunday was our young men's and young women's sacrament meeting - and I heard the same thing from the youth of today. These events seem like a lot - but realistically, the wars and the threats of war that we see today are relatively tame compared with the events of my parents youth and their parents youth. This is merely a sideshow ...

The use of allusion in creating prophecy of future events, especially to redirect unmet expectations in connection with the original references (whether those expectations, or the prophecies, were correct or not), seems to be part of the “manner of prophesying among the Jews” that Nephi was trying to avoid in his plainer explanations (2 Nephi 25).

[rodheadlee]

On 5/1/2024 at 12:45 PM, mfbukowski said:

For all the OT scholars, I would like to find out how they interpret this chapter of scripture and whether or not it corresponds to what we see before our eyes, or something in the past, or yet in the future, or something else.

I am simply quoting the entire KJV chapter, so that one need not flip between a passage and the forum.   Please keep it scholarly and away from politics.

 

Not a scholar but I've had dreams and visions about it.

In one vision I was driving through Belmont Shores and everyone was dead. You know the stretch that I mean with all the sidewalk cafes?

In another vision I saw a nuclear go off in L.A. Harbor.

I'm not a prepper, I don't hangout on end of the world bulletin boards. I hope nono of them come true. I used to love driving down Ocean Blvd, through Belmont Shores to PCH to Huntington Beach to get home. 

Edited May 7, 2024 by rodheadlee

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Not a scholar but I've had dreams and visions about it.

In one vision I was driving through Belmont Shores and everyone was dead. You know the stretch that I mean with all the sidewalk cafes?

In another vision I saw a nuclear go off in L.A. Harbor.

I'm not a prepper, I don't hangout on end of the world bulletin boards. I hope nono of them come true. I used to love driving down Ocean Blvd, through Belmont Shores to PCH to Huntington Beach to get home. 

  Yes I know exactly the locations you are speaking about.

We gotta get together!

"LA Harbor" includes both LA and San Pedro and Long Beach harbors, and I think that if sees all those as one- geographically they ARE- they are one of if not THE largest harbor complexes in the world!

Just try to go North on the 710 without being totally immersed in 18 wheelers full of containers.   And because of the punishment that road gets it is also under repair perpetually. And going South, you have the same trucks going back for more loads.

Oy vey!  

If the nukes fall, that complex will definitely be a target!

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

  Yes I know exactly the locations you are speaking about.

We gotta get together!

"LA Harbor" includes both LA and San Pedro and Long Beach harbors, and I think that if sees all those as one- geographically they ARE- they are one of if not THE largest harbor complexes in the world!

Just try to go North on the 710 without being totally immersed in 18 wheelers full of containers.   And because of the punishment that road gets it is also under repair perpetually. And going South, you have the same trucks going back for more loads.

Oy vey!  

If the nukes fall, that complex will definitely be a target!

I'll let you know when I'll be in the area. I have to get some boat parts down the in a week or 2.

[rodheadlee]

I see where the UN has ordered Israel to stop their offensive. 

It doesn't take much imagination to see all the nations of the world aligned against Israel for Armageddon.

[rodheadlee]

I see where Turkey is threatening to invade Israel. I don't know how to post a link to the news article. But isn't that right in line with Ezekiel 38 and 39?

[Calm]

You copy the url, paste in the reply box and it will convert it to a link such as this one:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/erdogan-says-turkey-might-enter-israel-help-palestinians-2024-07-28/

I am pretty sure it works the same with instagram and X.  FB you need to click on the date of the post you want to link to, which pulls up only that post and then copy the url and paste it here.

Edited July 30, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

48 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I see where Turkey is threatening to invade Israel. I don't know how to post a link to the news article. But isn't that right in line with Ezekiel 38 and 39?

He is threatening to invade Israel in exactly the same way Turkey previously *checks notes* sent a small amount of troops to Libya in 2020 in support of the UN recognized government. So this isn’t even an invasion threat.

Turkey does not have the military capability to launch an invasion of Israel and Turkey would be smacked down HARD by the rest of NATO if they tried.

It would require an amphibious invasion of Israel which Israel could repel on its own and then would require naval supply to keep that invasion going. Alternately Turkey could march through and occupy large portions of Syria to set up the logistical network it would need for this invasion. The same Syria involved in an ongoing civil war in which most factions would oppose this movement.

Oh, and if this invasion were to somehow work Israel is a nuclear power with (at minimum) around 90 warheads and if Israel is existentially threatened several cities in Turkey get mushroom clouds. Turkey is not a nuclear power and doesn’t even have any operating nuclear power plants. They are building some (some with US help and some with Russian help). The Russian supported planet is currently behind schedule and is probably on hold indefinitely due to the current sanctions due to the 3 day special military operation Russia launched into Ukraine which is now *checks notes* over 750 days old.

The only nation on Earth that could probably pull off either of those two campaigns and support them is the United States and the United States has no interest in invading Israel and even if they did Israel is a nuclear power and has a credible deterrent.

The US is still supplying military aid to Israel.

This is just Erdogan talking tough about military readiness because his speech was designed to bolster his nation’s military industrial complex. This isn’t the end of days. It is bellicose posturing and Turkey just being Turkey.