A boycott and a birthday - Women's boycott this Sunday

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Who sits on the stand is a symbolic representation of who has power. 

I realize the word power can insinuate something negative. But all relationships have factors of power. Women have significantly less power, and it is possible that if women were on the stand, it might change the way people see women and pave the way for more power. 
 

I would rather see the actual power shift, before the symbolic representation of such, but I do believe that things need to be shaken up and if this is one way to do it, I’m down.

I wonder if the church would be willing to go the same route they did when KK was trying to get women into the priesthood sessions of GC, and instead of including women leaders on the stand decided to take the male leaders off to sit with their families, except for the one conducting.

If sitting on the stand is not meant to be a symbolic representation of who has power, that would be one way to get that across.  And the bishopric members and their families would rejoice.

 

Edited March 16, 2024 by bluebell

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Anyone who wants to be up front to be "seen of men", deserves to be up there I suppose, because I'm with you in that it's not something the normal believing church member is at all interested in.  

But, if it served a purpose and God asked me to, then I would do it (and try to do it without resentment), despite hating every minute of it. 

I struggle with this new social cause because it feels like making up a purpose for women to be up there and it also feels like putting women on a pedestal since the men who serve in the same callings are not being asked to do the same (as the RS presidency is the equivalent of the EQ presidency and not the bishopric). 

But, coming at this issue from a "women wanting to feel important" angle is missing the point of what these women are asking for.  They don't want to be seen, they want girls and young women to be able to see them. 

I know that sounds like semantics, but it's not.

Ok, thanks, I think I get the idea better now.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I wonder if the church would be willing to go the same route they did when KK was trying to get women into the priesthood sessions of GC, and instead of including women leaders on the stand decided to take the male leaders off to sit with their families, except for the one conducting.

If sitting on the stand is not meant to be a symbolic representation of who has power, that would be one way to get that across.  And the bishopric members and their families would rejoice.

 

Absolutely.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I wonder if the church would be willing to go the same route they did when KK was trying to get women into the priesthood sessions of GC, and instead of including women leaders on the stand decided to take the male leaders off to sit with their families, except for the one conducting.

If sitting on the stand is not meant to be a symbolic representation of who has power, that would be one way to get that across.  And the bishopric members and their families would rejoice.

 

When Jesus visited the Nephites, “he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him…” This was around the temple. He called forth Nephi, who stood before Him and gave him his commission, and then He did the same for the rest of the disciples. After teaching the multitude, Jesus looked upon the twelve and addressed them directly, and then “he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again…[and] when Jesus had ended these sayings he cast his eyes round about on the multitude…” More than once He “he looked round about again on the multitude… cast his eyes round about again on the multitude.”

The venue seems to have allowed Jesus and the disciples to stand in the midst of the people, but whether He was seated in front or standing in their midst, “the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him…” and presumably the twelve who stood with Him and administered the sacrament. There is a distinction because He more than once “turned his eyes again upon the disciples whom he had chosen…” – where were they? In front, to the side, behind Him? He was the center point, but the multitude could see the disciples with Him.

In Chapter 18, when the disciples went to the water’s edge, the multitude followed them, placing the disciples in front.  Jesus met up with the disciples in their midst, and from this situated position continued to minister to the disciples and the multitude.

I'm not sure that these physical posts of Jesus and the disciples was meant to symbolic of who has the power, but a quite physical means of ministering the power in behalf of the congregation gathered in a particular locale. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

When Jesus visited the Nephites, “he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him…” This was around the temple. He called forth Nephi, who stood before Him and gave him his commission, and then He did the same for the rest of the disciples. After teaching the multitude, Jesus looked upon the twelve and addressed them directly, and then “he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again…[and] when Jesus had ended these sayings he cast his eyes round about on the multitude…” More than once He “he looked round about again on the multitude… cast his eyes round about again on the multitude.”

The venue seems to have allowed Jesus and the disciples to stand in the midst of the people, but whether He was seated in front or standing in their midst, “the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him…” and presumably the twelve who stood with Him and administered the sacrament. There is a distinction because He more than once “turned his eyes again upon the disciples whom he had chosen…” – where were they? In front, to the side, behind Him? He was the center point, but the multitude could see the disciples with Him.

In Chapter 18, when the disciples went to the water’s edge, the multitude followed them, placing the disciples in front.  Jesus met up with the disciples in their midst, and from this situated position continued to minister to the disciples and the multitude.

I'm not sure that these physical posts of Jesus and the disciples was meant to symbolic of who has the power, but a quite physical means of ministering the power in behalf of the congregation gathered in a particular locale. 

If the 12 apostles ended up in a sacrament meeting, I don't think they'd have to sit on the stand for the membership to notice them.  Though I'm sure that's where they would be if they were the speakers or were otherwise involved in the meeting, because logistics is a valid reason to have someone placed in front of others.

[MustardSeed]

I believe, personally, my opinion only- if Christ came to earth today, and scratched everything and started over, he would use women as leaders and as disciples as much as men, because our world today ( outside the church) is ready for that.  
 

44 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm not sure that these physical posts of Jesus and the disciples was meant to symbolic of who has the power,

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

not sure that these physical posts of Jesus and the disciples was meant to symbolic of who has the power, but a quite physical means of ministering the power in behalf of the congregation gathered in a particular locale. 

Sounds like what has been suggested, have the person conducting up front and only those giving talks and announcements at first.  Let those who are done with such go down and sit in the pews if they want after presentations (some may struggle and prefer to do it when less eyes are upon them).  Either have seats for the chorister and organist there as well or reserve two rows on the appropriate side for them and their companions/family to sit as needed for easy access.  Have a place in the pews reserved for the bishop and his wife and any children that is within line of sight for the priests, so they can get clearance easily for the sacrament prayers.  If needed have a seat up front for the clerk if they prefer to count or take any notes that way (if they still take notes), though I would think walking the aisles is easier to count than from up front).

[CV75]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

If the 12 apostles ended up in a sacrament meeting, I don't think they'd have to sit on the stand for the membership to notice them.  Though I'm sure that's where they would be if they were the speakers or were otherwise involved in the meeting, because logistics is a valid reason to have someone placed in front of others.

This is partly why I don't think the purpose of the seating arrangement (or in the case of the Nephite visit, where Jesus and the disciples stood in relation to the multitude gathered around the temple) is to be noticed, but to minister/administer the ordinances.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I believe, personally, my opinion only- if Christ came to earth today, and scratched everything and started over, he would use women as leaders and as disciples as much as men, because our world today ( outside the church) is ready for that.  
 

 

And I would think that seating as these leaders would arrange them would not be meant to symbolic of who has the power, but a physical means of ministering the power in behalf of the congregation gathered in a particular locale. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Sounds like what has been suggested, have the person conducting up front and only those giving talks and announcements at first.  Let those who are done with such go down and sit in the pews if they want after presentations (some may struggle and prefer to do it when less eyes are upon them).  Either have seats for the chorister and organist there as well or reserve two rows on the appropriate side for them and their companions/family to sit as needed for easy access.  Have a place in the pews reserved for the bishop and his wife and any children that is within line of sight for the priests, so they can get clearance easily for the sacrament prayers.  If needed have a seat up front for the clerk if they prefer to count or take any notes that way (if they still take notes), though I would think walking the aisles is easier to count than from up front).

Whatever works to enable the bishopric or presidency to administer to the congregation gathered in the chapel for sacrament, as Jesus (presiding) and the twelve Nephite disciples did for the multitude. Jesus and the disciples administered other ordinances for the gathered faithful in 3 Nephi, sometimes in their midst and sometimes in front.

I think there is flexibility in other aspects in that some people wait in the pews until it is their turn to talk, and some go sit in the pews immediately after giving their talk. Or performing their musical number, etc. (Jesus seems to have been the only speaker in 3 Nephi, and then He conducted some business in the evaluation and correction of the record, and some leadership training to the disciples with instructions to the multitudes).

I recall as a young branch presidency counselor, a few times, returning to the chairs -- small branch of 30-40 attendees, there might have been 5 rows -- after the sacrament was administered to be with my wife who was struggling with post partum depression.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

And I would think that seating as these leaders would arrange them would not be meant to symbolic of who has the power, but a physical means of ministering the power in behalf of the congregation gathered in a particular locale. 

And yet we have an example of seating priorities at General Conference....  ?

Honestly though, I really have no position or opinion on this.

Suspending chairs from the ceiling in the proper order might be dangerous for old guys though.

Edited March 17, 2024 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Sounds like what has been suggested, have the person conducting up front and only those giving talks and announcements at first.  

But who is PRESIDING needs to at least be on a ladder, clearly.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

And I would think that seating as these leaders would arrange them would not be meant to symbolic of who has the power, but a physical means of ministering the power in behalf of the congregation gathered in a particular locale. 

Obviously that’s the intention.  There is an unintended outcome.  It affects us, as young girls, as young women, and as aging women, and how we see ourselves, our ceiling, our place, our voices, etc in that church context. 
     It’s the only place in my entire existence where I know I don’t have the same potential for participation and involvement and influence as the men.  The *only.*. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

This is partly why I don't think the purpose of the seating arrangement (or in the case of the Nephite visit, where Jesus and the disciples stood in relation to the multitude gathered around the temple) is to be noticed, but to minister/administer the ordinances.

But the Church uses seating arrangement twice a year to make it easier to see leaders even if Christ didn’t do things that way. (Mfb got there first)

Edited March 17, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

But who is PRESIDING needs to at least be on a ladder, clearly.

Why?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

recall as a young branch presidency counselor, a few times, returning to the chairs -- small branch of 30-40 attendees, there might have been 5 rows -- after the sacrament was administered to be with my wife who was struggling with post partum depression.

Excellent choice

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Why?

Sarcasm.  I thought that would be clear.  Sorry.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Sarcasm.  I thought that would be clear.  Sorry.

I read from the bottom up, it was obviously sarcasm with the previous post

[CV75]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And yet we have an example of seating priorities at General Conference....  ?

Honestly though, I really have no position or opinion on this.

Suspending chairs from the ceiling in the proper order might be dangerous for old guys though.

These seating arrangements (or the positions in 3 Nephi) don't seem to be a function of prioritization but of function  .

I would think a General Conference, where the people gather in part to sustain the callings and messages by common consent, would benefit from a "display" -- transparency -- of what they are sustaining. In 3 Nephi, we have the function of ordinances, in General Conference, the function of gathering and sustaining the Lord's callings.

I would sit on the ceiling if that was how I could receive the sacrament peaceable.

Today is St. Patrick's Day -- I propose green water and green bread. There is no scriptural prohibition, no revelation against the color of the sacramental emblems. Thus we recognize out common humanity of all people everywhere.

 

Edited March 17, 2024 by CV75

[CV75]

11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Obviously that’s the intention.  There is an unintended outcome.  It affects us, as young girls, as young women, and as aging women, and how we see ourselves, our ceiling, our place, our voices, etc in that church context. 
     It’s the only place in my entire existence where I know I don’t have the same potential for participation and involvement and influence as the men.  The *only.*. 

I have felt quite apart from others in many instances in my existence, but I know that Christ walks with me no matter what. I find great encouragement and broad perspective in that, and by His grace I find myself knowing and attaining, little by little, my potential. 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

But the Church uses seating arrangement twice a year to make it easier to see leaders even if Christ didn’t do things that way. (Mfb got there first)

Posted 6 minutes ago

Not quite the same context, purpose and function.

 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Excellent choice

In this case, we both put Christ first. She in sustaining my assignment, me in keeping my assignment in perspective.

[Tacenda]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

If the 12 apostles ended up in a sacrament meeting, I don't think they'd have to sit on the stand for the membership to notice them.  Though I'm sure that's where they would be if they were the speakers or were otherwise involved in the meeting, because logistics is a valid reason to have someone placed in front of others.

I believe it's more than just being seen, also it's action as well. I know you asked about the "At Last She Said It" podcast's ladies and their belief or activity something like that. They are both all in for the most part, they just want change. I listened again this morning, and if you want you could listen 13 minutes in to hear the juiciest of the subject, I believe. To get a better picture. And if you do, let me know what you think. I'd like to come back and talk about it.  https://atlastshesaidit.org/episode-168-revisiting-what-women-dont-get-in-our-church/

[MustardSeed]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

And I would think that seating as these leaders would arrange them would not be meant to symbolic of who has the power, but a physical means of ministering the power in behalf of the congregation gathered in a particular locale. 

Of course. As they do now. And as we see, it is the men only.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Of course. As they do now. And as we see, it is the men only.

To put a finer point on it, I see it as only certain men who are called after the holy order of the Son of God.

Believing in a hypothetical reset that would make things work to someone's liking? That may be worthwhile; I also like to try the Chesterton's Fence route, trying to understand more fundamentally how the seating arrangements we see tie to scripture and principle in addition to sociological explanations of oppression.

The specific concerns about who sits on the stand seems to me to tie more to the principle of belonging, and in Sunday School today we saw a video from Elder Christofferson about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmiBgY_w3Rk

And excerpts from this related talk: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/10/28christofferson?lang=eng