Poll: Opinions on LGBT Issues And The Law Of Chastity

[Maestrophil]

25 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t think it’s the same thing at all. A non-sexual relationship with a man for me would be completely different than a non-sexual relationship with a woman. A non-sexual relationship with a woman for me would be a complete lie, and a degradation of my own sense of self. I imagine that any homosexual would feel the same.
 

This is not about having or not having sex. 

Interesting - shows how different we all are - it wouldn't be the end of the world for me.

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t think it’s the same thing at all. A non-sexual relationship with a man for me would be completely different than a non-sexual relationship with a woman. A non-sexual relationship with a woman for me would be a complete lie, and a degradation of my own sense of self. I imagine that any homosexual would feel the same.
 

This is not about having or not having sex. 

I agree that bonding as a companion would be different even at the platonic level of attraction because of how one sees the relationship as blending of two persons, sharing oneself in ways one doesn’t share with others or just living side by side.  There is a difference in seeing oneself and one’s spouse as roommates, sharing resources and friendship and seeing oneself as a unit, two people becoming one.  Just the intent to do the latter will set up expectations that opens up a relationship to deeper connections, imo.

I have seen some romantic marriages fail because at least one spouse refused to treat the marriage as a reason to share themselves with the other.  They didn’t want to change and become something more together than they were independently, they just wanted the same romantic life as before marriage, only easier because they lived with their playmate and more fun because there was sex.

Edited March 13, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

it wouldn't be the end of the world for me.

What wouldn’t be the end of the world?  What wouldn’t you care about missing out of enough in a marriage that you wouldn’t marry under those conditions.  Are you saying you can imagine yourself bonding in marriage with a man in much the same way you see the purpose of marriage with a woman or were you thinking something else?

Edited March 13, 2024 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

26 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Interesting - shows how different we all are - it wouldn't be the end of the world for me.

 

Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying.
If somehow things got jumbled, and the authority it be God, or whoever was to say OK, I’m mixing things up and meistro needs to be married to a man. 
 

It sounds like you’re saying that wouldn’t be the end of the world for you? OK. If I had to be married to a woman, take me out back and shoot me.🤣

[Maestrophil]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

What wouldn’t be the end of the world?  What wouldn’t you care about missing out of enough in a marriage that you wouldn’t marry under those conditions.  Are you saying you can imagine yourself bonding in marriage with a man in much the same way you see the purpose of marriage with a woman or were you thinking something else?

A sexless relationship with my wife and/or a life of celibacy with no sexual intimacy with any person of any gender. 

If we are trying to relate it to the challenge of SSA - then if I were in that hypothetical situation (having to marry a man or remain celibate) I would be prepared to remain celibate until I learn my fate on the other side of the veil. I can sacrifice my sexuality on the altar if I am required to.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

35 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

it wouldn't be the end of the world for me.

 

4 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

A sexless relationship with my wife and/or a life of celibacy with no sexual intimacy with any person of any gender. 

If we are trying to relate it to the challenge of SSA - then if I were in that hypothetical situation (having to marry a man or remain celibate) I would be prepared to remain celibate until I learn my fate on the other side of the veil. I can sacrifice my sexuality on the altar if I am required to.

I would hate to be in a relationship with a person that described it as “not the end of the world for me”. You do you obviously. 

[MrShorty]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

I was always prepared to go a whole life without sexual fulfillment if that was required of me.

The question, then, is -- How would you know if God required you to go your whole life without sexual fulfillment? Even God were to require you to go your whole life without sexual fulfillment, could we then extrapolate to everyone else and say that God requires everyone in a sexless marriage or other scenario to give up sexual fulfillment? I no longer believe we can generalize these statements to everyone. Sure there may be some individual cases where God will ask someone to forego sexual fulfillment, but there will be other cases where God allows for divorce instead of foregoing sexual fulfillment.

[Maestrophil]

4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

I would hate to be in a relationship with a person that described it as “not the end of the world for me”. You do you obviously. 

 

The relationship can mean everything to me even without sex - what if my wife got in an accident that prohibited her form ever being able to have sex - do I feel I would deserve to leave her?  - of course not.  

Sex is obviously much more important to you than me - you do you as well.  

[MrShorty]

10 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

A sexless relationship with my wife

As others have noted, you can make your own choices. In the marriage and sex help circles I frequent, this often is the big question -- whether or not an individual in a sexless relationship is willing to continue that relationship, and whether God requires them to continue or not. And I find very few who are willing to say that God requires everyone in a sexless marriage to stay married.

Some might say that staying in a sexless marriage is a "higher law," and God only allows divorce in those situations because of mortal weakness. That could be a very interesting discussion, but I find very few willing to go there.

[Maestrophil]

3 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Some might say that staying in a sexless marriage is a "higher law," and God only allows divorce in those situations because of mortal weakness. That could be a very interesting discussion, but I find very few willing to go there.

I would be one of the people who would say that.

[MrShorty]

4 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

what if my wife got in an accident that prohibited her form ever being able to have sex

A common rebuttal. I'm reminded of Barbara Walters' interview with Christopher and Dana Reeve after his accident that left him paralyzed from the neck down. As delicately as she could, Walters broached the topic of sex, and the Reeves answered without detail that they still found ways to be sexual together. Sex therapists frequently address this question with lots of possibilities for nurturing a sexual relationship after illness, injury, or just age gets in the way.

[MrShorty]

6 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

I would be one of the people who would say that.

It's probably a lot to ask, so answer as much or as little as your feel inclined, but how did you come to the conclusion that God universally prefers staying in a sexless marriage to divorce and remarriage? When I look at the fruits of both scenarios, I find a nuanced and difficult balance of good fruits and bad fruits. Sometimes it seems that the good fruits of staying married and foregoing sexual fulfilment is the best balance of the good and bad fruits. Other times, it seems that the good fruits of divorce and remarriage suggest that path is the better balance. And I find people in both situations will to say that they believe God approves of their choice. In my attempts to find a universal answer to this question, I cannot find a universal "stay married at all costs" answer to the question.

[MustardSeed]

33 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

A sexless relationship with my wife and/or a life of celibacy with no sexual intimacy with any person of any gender. 

 

What if that person you were married to loved you and longed for sexual intimacy? what if people didn’t know that you were not attracted to your spouses gender? If you felt ashamed? These things are hallmarks of gay people who marry straights. 

I do not think these two scenarios even almost match up. 

Plenty of people people have marriages that don’t engage sexually. I have plenty of them in my therapy office.
 

 

Edited March 13, 2024 by MustardSeed

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

A sexless relationship with my wife and/or a life of celibacy with no sexual intimacy with any person of any gender. 

But that is not what MustardSeed was referring to. She stated a sexless marriage relationship with a woman would be fundamentally different for her than a sexless marriage relationship with a man would be. I am translating that and what else she said to mean she could not bond with a woman in  a way she could honestly label marriage. Instead it would feel like a sham for her and any attempt to act like it was equivalent for her would be a lie and therefore feel degrading. 

Edited March 13, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

A sexless relationship with my wife and/or a life of celibacy with no sexual intimacy with any person of any gender. 

If we are trying to relate it to the challenge of SSA - then if I were in that hypothetical situation (having to marry a man or remain celibate) I would be prepared to remain celibate until I learn my fate on the other side of the veil. I can sacrifice my sexuality on the altar if I am required to.

For me living with a roommate rather than a marriage partner wouldn’t be the end of the world for me, but trying to live as a marriage partner with someone I only saw in my heart as a roommate would break my heart and mind and I assume would diminish my spirit as well, male or female. 

I don’t know if I could learn to perceive a woman to be my marriage partner. I can see myself as romantically involved with women but that is the easy part of marriage in my view (at least till kids come along), but the idea of sharing souls (which is what marriage means to me) has been deeply programmed into me as meant to be male and female, so I am not sure I could shift that expectation and learn to communicate and take risks and make the necessary sacrifices in order to create the relationship I see as appropriate for a marriage with a woman.

Edited March 13, 2024 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

For me living with a roommate rather than a marriage partner wouldn’t be the end of the world for me, but trying to live as a marriage partner with someone I only saw in my heart as a roommate would break my heart and mind and I assume would diminish my spirit as well, male or female. 

I don’t know if I could learn to perceive a woman to be my marriage partner. I can see myself as romantically involved with women but that is the easy part of marriage in my view (at least till kids come along), but the idea of sharing souls (which is what marriage means to me) has been deeply programmed into me as meant to be male and female, so I am not sure I could shift that expectation and learn to communicate and take risks and make the necessary sacrifices in order to create the relationship I see as appropriate for a marriage with a woman.

Thank you for understanding what I wasn’t communicating effectively apparently.  

[Maestrophil]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

It's probably a lot to ask, so answer as much or as little as your feel inclined, but how did you come to the conclusion that God universally prefers staying in a sexless marriage to divorce and remarriage? When I look at the fruits of both scenarios, I find a nuanced and difficult balance of good fruits and bad fruits. Sometimes it seems that the good fruits of staying married and foregoing sexual fulfilment is the best balance of the good and bad fruits. Other times, it seems that the good fruits of divorce and remarriage suggest that path is the better balance. And I find people in both situations will to say that they believe God approves of their choice. In my attempts to find a universal answer to this question, I cannot find a universal "stay married at all costs" answer to the question.

Mostly because I believe Christ when he said save for adultery divorce is not good.  Also, because I just think we humans are too obsessed with sexual needs in general and while I find sexuality as a wonderful gift from God in the right context, I don't feel it as a right - but rather a privilege.

 

But I definitely don't claim to know the actual will of God on the matter - far beyond my pay grade!  🙂

[Maestrophil]

41 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Thank you for understanding what I wasn’t communicating effectively apparently.  

I get it - that is why I added the part about celibacy - I could not have that kind of a meaningful relationship with a man, I could not see myself bonding in the same intimate way, sex or not, with a man.  That is why I said, if I did have to choose to 'fake it' in a relationship like that, I would likely chose to remain celibate and sexless until I died and discovered how the Atonement would remedy things on the other side.  

[MustardSeed]

11 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

I get it - that is why I added the part about celibacy - I could not have that kind of a meaningful relationship with a man, I could not see myself bonding in the same intimate way, sex or not, with a man.  That is why I said, if I did have to choose to 'fake it' in a relationship like that, I would likely chose to remain celibate and sexless until I died and discovered how the Atonement would remedy things on the other side.  

I too would prefer to be alone and without any type of intimacy than to have to fake it with a gender that doesn’t appeal to me.  
 

Im not convinced that we have to do either one.  
 

 

[Maestrophil]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I too would prefer to be alone and without any type of intimacy than to have to fake it with a gender that doesn’t appeal to me.  
 

Im not convinced that we have to do either one.  
 

 

do we 'have' to do anything?  🙂

 

[MrShorty]

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Mostly because I believe Christ when he said save for adultery divorce is not good.

So those who leave abusive marriages maybe should have stuck it out?? Of course not! It has long been known that we have added to that one, sole justification that the scriptural record gives for divorce to add others. Some who want to force their additional justifications into this one scripture will declare that their reason (abuse, sexual refusal, etc.) is a form of adultery/infidelity and therefore within the limits of the Savior's recorded statement.

 

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

because I just think we humans are too obsessed with sexual needs in general

I agree that some of us overvalue sex. I would also argue that some of us (often conservative religious types or those with "good girl syndrome" as Laura Brotherson calls it) undervalue sex. I might say that a major part of my deconstruction/reconstruction around sex was trying to figure out how to "right-value" sex in marriage -- neither undervaluing it nor overvaluing it. That has been hard, and I find that my best sense of the "right-value" for sex does not leave me believing that LGB people should be forced into celibacy or marriages with someone they are not sexually and romantically attracted to.

[10THAmendment]

Seek understanding from the Spirit as with everything else. 

[Maestrophil]

41 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

So those who leave abusive marriages maybe should have stuck it out?? Of course not! It has long been known that we have added to that one, sole justification that the scriptural record gives for divorce to add others. Some who want to force their additional justifications into this one scripture will declare that their reason (abuse, sexual refusal, etc.) is a form of adultery/infidelity and therefore within the limits of the Savior's recorded statement.

 

I agree that some of us overvalue sex. I would also argue that some of us (often conservative religious types or those with "good girl syndrome" as Laura Brotherson calls it) undervalue sex. I might say that a major part of my deconstruction/reconstruction around sex was trying to figure out how to "right-value" sex in marriage -- neither undervaluing it nor overvaluing it. That has been hard, and I find that my best sense of the "right-value" for sex does not leave me believing that LGB people should be forced into celibacy or marriages with someone they are not sexually and romantically attracted to.

And thank goodness we have our right to choose and to be judged by a perfect judge one day!  🙂. 

[california boy]

On 3/12/2024 at 9:53 AM, Anonymous Mormon said:

All polls are inherently limited in what they try to accomplish, and mine is no different. I tried to make the poll flexible enough for the kind of sentiment you are expressing. If I understand your sentiment, I think the following would work:

You could mark 'No' to #1 since it my understanding is you to believe that 'God would consider a same-sex marriage as not a sin for them'

Then for #2, you could mark your opinion on whether or not the rest of the law of chastity exists. It sounds like you would be a 'Yes' on that since you are referring to 'God's intention' with the Law of Chastity.

Then for #3, you can mark your own opinion as well.

 

Or if you want to boycott the survey you could choose to not answer, but then your opinion won't be reflected in the results and thus they would be skewed against your viewpoint. I would love to get more opinions and not less, so I would hope you don't choose this option.

Or you can create your own poll with better questions. If you do, I would be happy to take it.

I have tried a couple of times to take your survey.  But I feel like my answers distort exactly how I feel about the questions, so I haven't taken the survey.  I am not blaming you.  I appreciate your effort.  But I think this issue is more complicated than the options given for answers.  Given the format you have to use, I don't really think I could come up with a survey that would yield the results you are looking for either.  So good effort, but doesn't work for me.

[manol]

27 minutes ago, california boy said:

I have tried a couple of times to take your survey.  But I feel like my answers distort exactly how I feel about the questions, so I haven't taken the survey.  I am not blaming you.  I appreciate your effort.  But I think this issue is more complicated than the options given for answers.  Given the format you have to use, I don't really think I could come up with a survey that would yield the results you are looking for either.  So good effort, but doesn't work for me.

Well said.  I too have been unable to take it, but not because of any fault of @Anonymous Mormon or his efforts.  I am simply not comfortable making these sorts of claims about what God expects of anyone other than myself.