My Recent Crash-Course in Modern LDS Thought 🧐

[ZealouslyStriving]

So... Over the last few days I have gotten a crash course on what has been going on in the Church while I have been on my wilderness journey for the last 20ish years. Whoa! 😮

LDS scholars using old anti- claims as authoritative (see "Rough Stone Rolling").

*I never felt led to read that. Now l know why.*

Others using critical theory to re-interpret the Book of Mormon during a visiting lecture at BYU (and in other places- Terryl & Fiona Givens fireside).

I knew something felt... Different. But I am here for the long haul. The Church has the keys and Temple... there's nowhere else to go.

I thankful for the Stoddard Family at Joseph Smith Foundation and other traditionalists for holding fast and providing places of sanity.

*I believe Joseph was and is the head of this dispensation. He didn't just muddle his way through doing the best he knew how- he was taught by God and angels.

*I believe the Book of Mormon is actual history, not "inspired fiction".

*I believe plural marriage was commanded by God and not a product of Joseph's libido. I also believe it is part of the higher order of marriage to be practiced again in the highest degree of Celestial glory.

etc...

Yes, I believe those antiquated ideas that many have "moved past" in their "enlightened" modernity.

 

[rpn]

Welcome home.

[manol]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So... Over the last few days I have gotten a crash course on what has been going on in the Church while I have been on my wilderness journey for the last 20ish years. Whoa! 😮

LDS scholars using old anti- claims as authoritative (see "Rough Stone Rolling").

*I never felt led to read that. Now l know why.*

Others using critical theory to re-interpret the Book of Mormon during a visiting lecture at BYU (and in other places- Terryl & Fiona Givens fireside).

I knew something felt... Different. But I am here for the long haul. The Church has the keys and Temple... there's nowhere else to go.

I thankful for the Stoddard Family at Joseph Smith Foundation and other traditionalists for holding fast and providing places of sanity.

*I believe Joseph was and is the head of this dispensation. He didn't just muddle his way through doing the best he knew how- he was taught by God and angels.

*I believe the Book of Mormon is actual history, not "inspired fiction".

*I believe plural marriage was commanded by God and not a product of Joseph's libido. I also believe it is part of the higher order of marriage to be practiced again in the highest degree of Celestial glory.

etc...

Yes, I believe those antiquated ideas that many have "moved past" in their "enlightened" modernity.

 

My impression has been that this message board is an extraordinarily live-and-led-live environment.  Sometimes it resembles a mosh pit, but ironically a mosh pit is also an extraordinarily live-and-let-live environment. 

[CV75]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So... Over the last few days I have gotten a crash course on what has been going on in the Church while I have been on my wilderness journey for the last 20ish years. Whoa! 😮

LDS scholars using old anti- claims as authoritative (see "Rough Stone Rolling").

*I never felt led to read that. Now l know why.*

Others using critical theory to re-interpret the Book of Mormon during a visiting lecture at BYU (and in other places- Terryl & Fiona Givens fireside).

I knew something felt... Different. But I am here for the long haul. The Church has the keys and Temple... there's nowhere else to go.

I thankful for the Stoddard Family at Joseph Smith Foundation and other traditionalists for holding fast and providing places of sanity.

*I believe Joseph was and is the head of this dispensation. He didn't just muddle his way through doing the best he knew how- he was taught by God and angels.

*I believe the Book of Mormon is actual history, not "inspired fiction".

*I believe plural marriage was commanded by God and not a product of Joseph's libido. I also believe it is part of the higher order of marriage to be practiced again in the highest degree of Celestial glory.

etc...

Yes, I believe those antiquated ideas that many have "moved past" in their "enlightened" modernity.

 

I would say that what is going on in the Church is reflective of what is going on the world, and what is going on within the hearts of the charitable and the sanctified, no matter their differing viewpoints, is not.

There is another new thread that brings up Moral Foundations Theory, and I think this theory (as do the Myers-Campbell, Fowlers, and other personality and psychological development models etc.) offers a good explanation as to why so many holding such a variety of viewpoints still agree in good faith that there is "nowhere else to go."

Edited March 8, 2024 by CV75

[Pyreaux]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So... Over the last few days I have gotten a crash course on what has been going on in the Church while I have been on my wilderness journey for the last 20ish years. Whoa! 😮

LDS scholars using old anti- claims as authoritative (see "Rough Stone Rolling").

*I never felt led to read that. Now l know why.*

Others using critical theory to re-interpret the Book of Mormon during a visiting lecture at BYU (and in other places- Terryl & Fiona Givens fireside).

I knew something felt... Different. But I am here for the long haul. The Church has the keys and Temple... there's nowhere else to go.

I thankful for the Stoddard Family at Joseph Smith Foundation and other traditionalists for holding fast and providing places of sanity.

*I believe Joseph was and is the head of this dispensation. He didn't just muddle his way through doing the best he knew how- he was taught by God and angels.

*I believe the Book of Mormon is actual history, not "inspired fiction".

*I believe plural marriage was commanded by God and not a product of Joseph's libido. I also believe it is part of the higher order of marriage to be practiced again in the highest degree of Celestial glory.

etc...

Yes, I believe those antiquated ideas that many have "moved past" in their "enlightened" modernity.

 

We all have our hang ups with the church, apologia or with members, we'll do so while we have the luxury to do so. I love how cavalier the church can be about prophesy and Bible verses, inspired by doctrine or scriptures (like believing in theophanies and theosis), then bewildered by how dogmatically the saints hold on to classic interpretations or stances we don't actually have any revelations about (like using pseudepigrapha). Awkward. I believe in priests, temples, rites and divine authorities, so for me "there's nowhere else to go". Money and social issues are important matters for those interested, but are small matters to me, those who disagree offer me nothing I seek.

[smac97]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So... Over the last few days I have gotten a crash course on what has been going on in the Church while I have been on my wilderness journey for the last 20ish years. Whoa! 😮

LDS scholars using old anti- claims as authoritative (see "Rough Stone Rolling").

Could you elaborate?  What "anti-{Mormon} claims" are you referencing here?

 

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Others using critical theory to re-interpret the Book of Mormon during a visiting lecture at BYU (and in other places- Terryl & Fiona Givens fireside).

I assume you are referencing this stuff that is being discussed (a lot) at CWIC Media.

Some faculty folks at BYU have been getting into this for a while now.

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I knew something felt... Different. But I am here for the long haul. The Church has the keys and Temple... there's nowhere else to go.

I think BYU will need to go through a series of course corrections.  There are some faculty members who want to wed the doctrines of the Church to currently trendy sociopolitical ideologies (such as Ibram Kendi's brand of neo-marxism couched as "anti-racism"), with the former subordinating to the latter.  I don't think it will work.

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I thankful for the Stoddard Family at Joseph Smith Foundation and other traditionalists for holding fast and providing places of sanity.

*I believe Joseph was and is the head of this dispensation. He didn't just muddle his way through doing the best he knew how- he was taught by God and angels.

*I believe the Book of Mormon is actual history, not "inspired fiction".

*I believe plural marriage was commanded by God and not a product of Joseph's libido. I also believe it is part of the higher order of marriage to be practiced again in the highest degree of Celestial glory.

etc...

Yes, I believe those antiquated ideas that many have "moved past" in their "enlightened" modernity.

The Church and its leaders will mess up here and there (and its members will mess up all over the place), but overall I am quite pleased with the trajectory of the Church, the competency of its leadership, and its overall focus on Jesus Christ and the mandates to bring the children of God to Him.

Thanks,

-Smac 

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am quite pleased with the trajectory of the Church, the competency of its leadership, and its overall focus on Jesus Christ and the mandates to bring the children of God to Him.

I fully sustain the General Authorities even IF (not saying it IS) the cart may get a little wobbly. They occupy Joseph's seat.

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Could you elaborate?  What "anti-{Mormon} claims" are you referencing here?

 

I assume you are referencing this stuff that is being discussed (a lot) at CWIC Media.

Some faculty folks at BYU have been getting into this for a while now.

I think BYU will need to go through a series of course corrections.  There are some faculty members who want to wed the doctrines of the Church to currently trendy sociopolitical ideologies (such as Ibram Kendi's brand of neo-marxism couched as "anti-racism"), with the former subordinating to the latter.  I don't think it will work.

The Church and its leaders will mess up here and there (and its members will mess up all over the place), but overall I am quite pleased with the trajectory of the Church, the competency of its leadership, and its overall focus on Jesus Christ and the mandates to bring the children of God to Him.

Thanks,

-Smac 

This brings up a very interesting point for me: The Church is seen as the individual and collective disciples (members), as BYU, and as the organization administered by the Lord's authorized servants who represent (witness) the testimony of the Lord's resurrection and the "appendages". I think I've quoted Joseph smith enough on this last item not to have to repeat it ... Of course, the #1 reason to stay is that last one. The disciples and BYU faculty are not the kingdom, only "appendages to the appendages." As as such we see a great deal of variability that hopefully the leaders can successfully invite to be more united in their efforts to come unto Christ.

 

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

He didn't just muddle his way through doing the best he knew how- he was taught by God and angels.

Those aren’t mutually exclusive.

[ZealouslyStriving]

A talk I just found that will fit well at this point:

“May the Kingdom of God Go Forth”

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1978/04/may-the-kingdom-of-god-go-forth?lang=eng

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A talk I just found that will fit well at this point:

“May the Kingdom of God Go Forth”

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1978/04/may-the-kingdom-of-god-go-forth?lang=eng

Great talk -- how does it "fit well at this point?"

[Smiley McGee]

22 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I thankful for the Stoddard Family at Joseph Smith Foundation and other traditionalists for holding fast and providing places of sanity.

Just went to their website (and what appears to be their affiliate site ldsanswers.org) and boy was that a trip. Here are a few things learned:

• Joseph Smith only used the Urim and Thummim to translate the BoM; it's the fault of progressive historians (Bushman primarily) that the false narrative of a seer stone in a hat has taken off.
• Our modern culture wrongly seeks to "humanize" Joseph Smith and suggest he's just some "common man" (Bushman's fault because of Rough Stone Rolling)
• "Progressive historians" (Bushman) falsely claim that Joseph Smith dug for treasure. They debunk this with "real data" in a multi-part video series. 
• A little bit of fundamentalist Christian thought:
  • "Darwinism" is destructive to faith and contrary to the Gospel
  • The earth is no more than 7,000 years old
  • Carbon dating is garbage
• Under the section "Culture and Standards" the first two linked articles are "Recommended books on Christian Persecution"  and "5 reasons our family does not celebrate Halloween", tldr:
  • Reason #1: The power of Satan is real.  Never tell your kids witches aren’t real.
  • Reason #2: Satan causes extreme suffering.

  • Reason #3: Halloween and other elements of Satanism mock God & His Priesthood

  • Reason #4: Engaging in Satanic rituals, witchcraft and so forth is condemned in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants & Pearl of Great Price.

  • Reason #5: I know the history of Halloween ("Our righteous forefathers refused to celebrate Halloween and similar festivals originating from Satanic worship")

Such a fascinating collection of ideas. Curious what makes this site a "place of sanity." 

[ZealouslyStriving]

I don't necessarily agree with everything they espouse, but their holding faithful to traditional history and interpretations is much more saner (😁) than reinterpreting things through a modernist, post-moral, critical theory lens.

I rather prefer parts of the earth history theory offered up by Sky Watch TV:

https://www.skywatchtv.com/2023/10/01/before-0/

But I'm still open to other ideas.

Edited March 9, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[pogi]

23 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

*I believe plural marriage was commanded by God and not a product of Joseph's libido. I also believe it is part of the higher order of marriage to be practiced again in the highest degree of Celestial glory.

Is this a personal belief distinct from the “restorationist branches” of the RLDS that you come from?  It kind of surprises me to hear anyone from an RLDS group believe in polygamy. 
Are any of the conservative RLDS groups practicing polygamy?  What distinguishes them from the Brighamite church except on principles of priesthood authority lineage?  It seems like your beliefs already align with traditional orthodox LDS (Brighamite church).

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

Is this a personal belief distinct from the “restorationist branches” of the RLDS that you come from?  It kind of surprises me to hear anyone from an RLDS group believe in polygamy. 
Are any of the conservative RLDS groups practicing polygamy?  What distinguishes them from the Brighamite church except on principles of priesthood authority lineage?  It seems like your beliefs already align with traditional orthodox LDS (Brighamite church).

 

I no longer align myself with the RLDS Restorationists:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75782-the-long-road-home-to-zion

 

Edited March 9, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I no longer align myself with the RLDS Restorationists:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75782-the-long-road-home-to-zion/page/1/

I recognize that, I was asking to be educated a little about where you came from.  I don’t know anything about RLDS restorationists and am curious how they differ from our church, except on claims of lines of authority.  I was wondering if they share similar views as you on polygamy, or was that one of the reasons for leaving? 

Edited March 9, 2024 by pogi

[ZealouslyStriving]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

I recognize that, I was asking to be educated a little about where you came from.  I don’t know anything about RLDS restorationists and am curious how they differ from our church, except on claims of lines of authority.  I was wondering if they share similar views as you on polygamy, or was that one of the reasons for leaving? 

RLDS Restorationists are the approx. 50% of the RLDS (now Community of Christ) who left in the 80's when the leadership veered left. They have never believed in or taught plural marriage and teach the Joseph never taught or practiced it either :

https://restorationbookstore.org/pages/joseph-smith-fought-polygamy-online

*An example of their thoughts on the subject*

I have returned to the Church because I gained a witness of the supreme importance of Temple ordinances- which they don't believe in or practice.

Edited March 9, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Smiley McGee]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I rather prefer parts of the earth history theory offered up by Sky Watch TV:

https://www.skywatchtv.com/2023/10/01/before-0/

What did I just read?

Quote

We can finally approach Isaiah 45:18 from a more straightforward, “Occam’s Razer” angle, which states God was “not” the One responsible for creating Earth tohu (translated in KJV to “in vain” in this instance). We can at last see the ruins of Earth’s oldest ritualistic serpent-worship structures and other religious phenomena—like Puerta de Hayu Marca, Gobekli Tepe, Karahan Tepe, Baalbek, Catalhoyuk, the Gate of the Sun in Tiahuanaco, “alien-originated” OOPArts (out-of-place-artifacts that should not exist based on the intelligence it took to produce them in an age when humanity couldn’t even create a clay pot), astronomically aligned cart ruts all over the globe, and countless other anomalies—in light of the Luciferian, fallen-angel worldview that the Bible also repeatedly teaches as a fact of our corporate history. And because we know God did not create carnivores (Genesis 1:30), we can, at long last, stop assuming that Genesis 6:1–4 was “the only time” the enemy would have tried to warp God’s Creation and, instead, we can bring bizarre carnivorous beasts into the framework they belong—like dinosaurs, which, according to scientific dating were driven into extinction 66 million years ago and thus dated to before the fall of Adam that wrecked the animal kingdom.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

25 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

What did I just read?

 

Like I said "parts" 😁 obviously I don't agree with the Adam ruined everything Christian motif.

I don't know that anyone knows the exact mechanics or timeline of creation. Probably just parts spread around. Just heard about the "Universal Model" 2 days ago, so can't really comment on that.

Edited March 9, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[pogi]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

RLDS Restorationists are the approx. 50% of the RLDS (now Community of Christ) who left in the 80's when the leadership veered left. They have never believed in or taught plural marriage and teach the Joseph never taught or practiced it either :

https://restorationbookstore.org/pages/joseph-smith-fought-polygamy-online

*An example of their thoughts on the subject*

I have returned to the Church because I gained a witness of the supreme importance of Temple ordinances- which they don't believe in or practice.

Thanks.  Is polygamy a point you always differed with your previous church on?

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Just heard about the "Universal Model" 2 days ago, so can't really comment on that.

If that is the one I think it is, it is very, very poor science.

[ZealouslyStriving]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

Thanks.  Is polygamy a point you always differed with your previous church on?

No. I bought in 99% with their arguments.  Now I've come full circle...

LDS ->"Fundamentalist"->RLDS ->LDS 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Following a rabbit trail 🐇since plural marriage was brought up...

Is it possible that we don't include Heavenly Mother in our prayers because- which one would be be praying to because several Heavenly Mothers were involved in our spiritual creation?

*Random musings I've had*

[ZealouslyStriving]

18 hours ago, CV75 said:

Great talk -- how does it "fit well at this point?"

Because it addresses questions people are asking now like "Are the Apostles aware of what's going on?" and "Why aren't they saying more about this?"

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

because several Heavenly Mothers were involved in our spiritual creation?

And how would several ones be involved in one individual’s creation? Serious question, not rhetorical as I am curious about how you are thinking.

I can see avoiding it in group prayers if one assumes different individuals had different Heavenly Mothers, but why would it be a problem for an individual? It is not like we need to use an exact name to get the prayer paid attention to by God after all.  Surely each Heavenly Mother would know who her spirit children were.

Edited March 9, 2024 by Calm