Catholics move toward more subjective theology?

[mfbukowski]

This is specifically about Freemasonry, close to our hearts , but has huge implications 

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/pentin-cardinal-calls-for-permanent-dialogue-with-freemasons

 

"Ode to Indifferentism

In an ode to indifferentism — the belief that differences of religion are of no importance and a central tenet of masonry — Bisi said “each man is brother to the other” and the “bond of brotherhood is independent of faith. It is only necessary to believe in the Great Architect of the Universe.” 

“The starry sky is the same for the Buddhist, for the Catholic, for the Waldensian, for the Muslim, for all those who believe in a supreme being,” he continued, adding: “We set our brothers free to adhere to any religion and to practice. Absolute truths and walls of the mind do not belong to us, and for us they must be torn down.” "

 

 

I recall being allowed to speak at my mother's funeral from behind the communion rail, the "sanctruary" our "veil", 10 years ago, when a young priest asked me if I believed in Jesus.

I bore him my testimony.

He said " That' fine- it's all the same anyway ", smiling broadly.

Edited February 22, 2024 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

Hi Mark,

Nobody is wrong about everything. The Catholic Church agrees with those words you cited by Bisi:

"Bisi said “each man is brother to the other” and the “bond of brotherhood is independent of faith."

This bond of brotherhood with all mankind, even to the independence of faith is deeply rooted in the incarnation of Christ, the second Adam, and the first-born of all creatures. Because the Son of God was born as a man, He is the the King and the Head of the human race, for the purpose of uniting all humanity in Him. Note what the noted 19th Century theologian, Fr. Matthias Scheeben carefully says about it:

"...faith and baptism do not establish the simple union of the body with Christ; rather they presuppose its existence. If faith makes this union a living union, some material, lifeless union must already be present as that which is to be vitalized. The Spirit of the head cannot flow into us unless we already pertain to His body in some respect; and on our part we cannot lay hold of Christ our head and clasp Him firmly unless He is already our head in a true sense, and unless we are already joined to Him in some way."

---The Mysteries of Christianity, by Fr. Matthias Scheeben, 1946, B. Herder Book Co., p. 375

This corresponds with the much discussed and often misunderstood truth elaborated by the Second Vatican Council where we read:

"Human nature...has been raised in us also to a dignity beyond compare. For by his incarnation, he, the son of God, has in a certain way united himself with each man."

-Gaudium et Spes, 22

There is much to say about this beautiful truth. Many of the Fathers waxed much more eloquent than I can be about the implications of this truth for all mankind that far exceeds the indifference to all religions that the Freemason would join to that true brotherhood which belongs to all men through Christ incarnate, even before faith. It makes the thoughtful Christian love and long for his brothers in Freemasonry to realize their full potential in Christ their head to make a living union through which the life of God made man, makes men God. We would not start an edifying dialogue about that which separates us, but of the beautiful implications of this brotherhood in which we both believe. 

St. Peter Faber (1506-1546) was the first follower of St. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus, the Jesuits. He gives some healthy ideas on how to reach those who are not visibly attached to the Catholic Church. He is mainly thinking of heretics. The Freemason is not a heretic, but one might start a dialogue in the same way. It seems to me to have informed the logic of the Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium ch. 2, Nostra Aetate 1, Gaudium et Spes, 1 and 2) where it emphasizes that we ought to take a similar approach with all of our neighbors with whom we are brothers "in a certain way": 

"First of all, it is essential that whoever desires to be useful to heretics in our day should both nourish in himself a great affection for them and show it in action, removing from his own mind those unfavourable imaginations which make us think less well of them. The next thing is, to win their goodwill and inclinations to such an extent that they may reciprocate our kind feelings and think well of us. This may easily be done by speaking to them affectionately, and dwelling in familiar conversations on those points only on which they agree with us, avoiding everything like a dispute, in which one side always assumes an air of superiority, and shows contempt of the other. Those subjects should be first chosen in which there is a sympathy and union of wills, rather than those which tend to disunite them by opposition of opinion."

---The Life of Blessed Peter Faber, https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfTheBlessedPeterFavre/page/n7/mode/1up?view=theater

Edited February 22, 2024 by 3DOP

[mfbukowski]

33 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Hi Mark,

Nobody is wrong about everything. The Catholic Church agrees with those words you cited by Bisi:

"Bisi said “each man is brother to the other” and the “bond of brotherhood is independent of faith."

This bond of brotherhood with all mankind, even to the independence of faith is deeply rooted in the incarnation of Christ, the second Adam, and the first-born of all creatures. Because the Son of God was born as a man, He is the the King and the Head of the human race, for the purpose of uniting all humanity in Him. Note what the noted 19th Century theologian, Fr. Matthias Scheeben carefully says about it:

"...faith and baptism do not establish the simple union of the body with Christ; rather they presuppose its existence. If faith makes this union a living union, some material, lifeless union must already be present as that which is to be vitalized. The Spirit of the head cannot flow into us unless we already pertain to His body in some respect; and on our part we cannot lay hold of Christ our head and clasp Him firmly unless He is already our head in a true sense, and unless we are already joined to Him in some way."

---The Mysteries of Christianity, by Fr. Matthias Scheeben, 1946, B. Herder Book Co., p. 375

This corresponds with the much discussed and often misunderstood truth elaborated by the Second Vatican Council where we read:

"Human nature...has been raised in us also to a dignity beyond compare. For by his incarnation, he, the son of God, has in a certain way united himself with each man."

-Gaudium et Spes, 22

There is much to say about this beautiful truth. Many of the Fathers waxed much more eloquent than I can be about the implications of this truth for all mankind that far exceeds the indifference to all religions that the Freemason would join to that true brotherhood which belongs to all men through Christ incarnate, even before faith. It makes the thoughtful Christian love and long for his brothers in Freemasonry to realize their full potential in Christ their head to make a living union through which the life of God made man, makes men God. We would not start an edifying dialogue about that which separates us, but of the beautiful implications of this brotherhood in which we both believe. 

St. Peter Faber (1506-1546) was the first follower of St. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus, the Jesuits. He gives some healthy ideas on how to reach those who are not visibly attached to the Catholic Church. He is mainly thinking of heretics. The Freemason is not a heretic, but one might start a dialogue in the same way. It seems to me to have informed the logic of the Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium ch. 2, Nostra Aetate 1, Gaudium et Spes, 1 and 2) where it emphasizes that we ought to take a similar approach with all of our neighbors with whom we are brothers "in a certain way": 

"First of all, it is essential that whoever desires to be useful to heretics in our day should both nourish in himself a great affection for them and show it in action, removing from his own mind those unfavourable imaginations which make us think less well of them. The next thing is, to win their goodwill and inclinations to such an extent that they may reciprocate our kind feelings and think well of us. This may easily be done by speaking to them affectionately, and dwelling in familiar conversations on those points only on which they agree with us, avoiding everything like a dispute, in which one side always assumes an air of superiority, and shows contempt of the other. Those subjects should be first chosen in which there is a sympathy and union of wills, rather than those which tend to disunite them by opposition of opinion."

---The Life of Blessed Peter Faber, https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfTheBlessedPeterFavre/page/n7/mode/1up?view=theater

Wonderful post,thanks both personally and in a scholarly sense.

[manol]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This is specifically about Freemasonry, close to our hearts , but has huge implications 

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/pentin-cardinal-calls-for-permanent-dialogue-with-freemasons

"Ode to Indifferentism

In an ode to indifferentism — the belief that differences of religion are of no importance and a central tenet of masonry — Bisi said “each man is brother to the other” and the “bond of brotherhood is independent of faith. It is only necessary to believe in the Great Architect of the Universe.” 

“The starry sky is the same for the Buddhist, for the Catholic, for the Waldensian, for the Muslim, for all those who believe in a supreme being,” he continued, adding: “We set our brothers free to adhere to any religion and to practice. Absolute truths and walls of the mind do not belong to us, and for us they must be torn down.” "

I recall being allowed to speak at my mother's funeral from behind the communion rail, the "sanctruary" our "veil", 10 years ago, when a young priest asked me if I believed in Jesus.

I bore him my testimony.

He said " That' fine- it's all the same anyway ", smiling broadly.

 

Catholicism is in a unique position to set a far-reaching example.  The holiest place on earth is where an ancient enmity has become a present love.  I wish this generation of Catholics and Masons the very best as they choose to love their neighbor over all other alternatives. 

[3DOP]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Wonderful post,thanks both personally and in a scholarly sense.

Thank you Mark...much appreciated. I had hoped to have a follow up tonight. But instead I had a refrigerator disaster. My good wife is out of town and bachelor boy had just got of the shower and realized that the lever that makes the refrigerator supply drinking water, which had stopped working, had begun to work. Good news that. But only to a point. It is supposed to turn off when the person holding a container releases the lever. Now, instead of never working, it always "works". I finally got it stopped. But not until it had leaked through the floor boards into my wife's craft room downstairs. Ugh.

Anyway, thanks again for your kind words.

Rory

 

[mfbukowski]

On 2/21/2024 at 6:07 PM, 3DOP said:

Hi Mark,

Nobody is wrong about everything. The Catholic Church agrees with those words you cited by Bisi:

"Bisi said “each man is brother to the other” and the “bond of brotherhood is independent of faith."

This bond of brotherhood with all mankind, even to the independence of faith is deeply rooted in the incarnation of Christ, the second Adam, and the first-born of all creatures. Because the Son of God was born as a man, He is the the King and the Head of the human race, for the purpose of uniting all humanity in Him. Note what the noted 19th Century theologian, Fr. Matthias Scheeben carefully says about it:

"...faith and baptism do not establish the simple union of the body with Christ; rather they presuppose its existence. If faith makes this union a living union, some material, lifeless union must already be present as that which is to be vitalized. The Spirit of the head cannot flow into us unless we already pertain to His body in some respect; and on our part we cannot lay hold of Christ our head and clasp Him firmly unless He is already our head in a true sense, and unless we are already joined to Him in some way."

---The Mysteries of Christianity, by Fr. Matthias Scheeben, 1946, B. Herder Book Co., p. 375

This corresponds with the much discussed and often misunderstood truth elaborated by the Second Vatican Council where we read:

"Human nature...has been raised in us also to a dignity beyond compare. For by his incarnation, he, the son of God, has in a certain way united himself with each man."

-Gaudium et Spes, 22

There is much to say about this beautiful truth. Many of the Fathers waxed much more eloquent than I can be about the implications of this truth for all mankind that far exceeds the indifference to all religions that the Freemason would join to that true brotherhood which belongs to all men through Christ incarnate, even before faith. It makes the thoughtful Christian love and long for his brothers in Freemasonry to realize their full potential in Christ their head to make a living union through which the life of God made man, makes men God. We would not start an edifying dialogue about that which separates us, but of the beautiful implications of this brotherhood in which we both believe. 

St. Peter Faber (1506-1546) was the first follower of St. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus, the Jesuits. He gives some healthy ideas on how to reach those who are not visibly attached to the Catholic Church. He is mainly thinking of heretics. The Freemason is not a heretic, but one might start a dialogue in the same way. It seems to me to have informed the logic of the Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium ch. 2, Nostra Aetate 1, Gaudium et Spes, 1 and 2) where it emphasizes that we ought to take a similar approach with all of our neighbors with whom we are brothers "in a certain way": 

"First of all, it is essential that whoever desires to be useful to heretics in our day should both nourish in himself a great affection for them and show it in action, removing from his own mind those unfavourable imaginations which make us think less well of them. The next thing is, to win their goodwill and inclinations to such an extent that they may reciprocate our kind feelings and think well of us. This may easily be done by speaking to them affectionately, and dwelling in familiar conversations on those points only on which they agree with us, avoiding everything like a dispute, in which one side always assumes an air of superiority, and shows contempt of the other. Those subjects should be first chosen in which there is a sympathy and union of wills, rather than those which tend to disunite them by opposition of opinion."

---The Life of Blessed Peter Faber, https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfTheBlessedPeterFavre/page/n7/mode/1up?view=theater

The truly amazing feature about this post is how close it is to LDS doctrine.

We must have a desire to explore baptism before we have faith, and feel the spirit to desire it. We were with him before birth, and thus have a "material, lifeless union must already be present as that which is to be vitalized."

Now THAT is a beautiful way of seeing it!

Christ IS "...the Son of God was born as a man, He is the the King and the Head of the human race, for the purpose of uniting all humanity in Him." - your words- can be seen as direct LDS Doctrine: Christ is the embodied Human God, and therefore one of us, and his perfection makes him our God and "King", as he will be in the Millennium.

His compassion in the At-One-ment truly bonds each and everyone individually with him. He becomes part of us, and we a part of him.

And Joseph Smith, as a Mason, as were all the early church leaders, readily was inspired to "translate", imo, the signs and symbols masons used, or at least the concepts these symbols represented, into true Doctrine of the savior.

And so our Catholic friends teach us more about "our own" doctrine!!

How beautiful is that?! 

"LDS-Catholic-Humanism" ?

Hmmmmm. 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2024 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, manol said:

 

Catholicism is in a unique position to set a far-reaching example.  The holiest place on earth is where an ancient enmity has become a present love.  I wish this generation of Catholics and Masons the very best as they choose to love their neighbor over all other alternatives. 

We must remember that Masonry is not a religion, any more than humanism is a religion.

Unless you see the world as I do, that ALL human constructions are "religious" in some sense, as Alma 32 teaches.

All hope for things unseen, even in the construction of a building, or finding a cure for disease, or sending telescopes into orbit to expand human perception.

Science seeks "sweet beliefs" called "theories" or "paradigms" about their "reality" without understanding that all they are able to find is another mirror of human perception, the world as we see it.

Certainly curing a disease is sweet and good, Alma's definition of Truth.

These all in themselves are "religious" beliefs that we CAN know "reality beyond human perception of it", of things as they "are".

Good luck on that one!

Killing thousands of people you have never seen or known with a missile thousands of miles away, as one might do with an ant hill, all for the sake of politics?

Things unseen, but not exactly "sweet".

Yet that is "realism".?

No thanks.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

On 2/22/2024 at 7:33 PM, 3DOP said:

Thank you Mark...much appreciated. I had hoped to have a follow up tonight. But instead I had a refrigerator disaster. My good wife is out of town and bachelor boy had just got of the shower and realized that the lever that makes the refrigerator supply drinking water, which had stopped working, had begun to work. Good news that. But only to a point. It is supposed to turn off when the person holding a container releases the lever. Now, instead of never working, it always "works". I finally got it stopped. But not until it had leaked through the floor boards into my wife's craft room downstairs. Ugh.

Anyway, thanks again for your kind words.

Rory

 

I hate water leaks, never have had to go through one as bad as yours yet, knock on wood. I hope you got it all taken care of. Your poor wife's craft room and poor you too! But it wasn't your fault. We have issues with our ice maker so we are constantly figuring out what makes it work and stop, work and stop.  

[3DOP]

Thanks Tacenda. It could have been a lot worse downstairs. It didn't get on any of the sewing equipment. My wife took it well and thanked me for the cleanup.

[mfbukowski]

On the other hand, not all Catholics agree that recognizing Freemasonry is a great idea.

But in describing why Catholicism is incompatible with Masonry, he also, I would say, shows incompatibility with LDS doctrine.

Not surprisingly.

AND it's revealing to learn how some Catholics think about their doctrines, and ours as well.

https://www.ncregister.com/cna/bishop-who-participated-in-freemasonry-event-affirms-its-incompatibility-with-catholicism

Edited February 28, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Saint Bonaventure]

Bishop who participated in Freemasonry event affirms its incompatibility with Catholicism | Catholic News Agency

[David Waltz]

Confessions of a Former Freemason Officer, Converted to Catholicism

[Calm]

Is this the actual position of Freemasonry?

Quote

If someone is very involved in Freemasonry’s initiatory step, like I really used to be, and if at the same time, he has a real living and carnal faith, an interior conflict will necessary arise. We cannot think on the one hand that God was made flesh, that Christ is the Son of God and died on the cross to save us, and on the other hand consider, like Freemasons believe, that God is something abstract, an undefined force called the Great Architect of the Universe, which is similar to a cosmic force, to a kind of naturalism. Those two things are doctrinally far too different to be compatible. Some Freemasons believe in the Christian God and think it is compatible with their Masonic activity, but it is a deep theological mistake.

Quote

The second fundamental incompatibility is that one cannot seek the truth through esoterism, resorting to rituals and “magical” processes, to some cosmic elements that are not necessarily divine, and at the same time resorting to the power of God to walk toward the Truth. These are two very incompatible and opposed paths. Such a conflict is true for worldwide Masonry, including that found in America or Europe.

And is this an accurate description?

The board members I remember being masons don’t post anymore.  Are there any others here that are masons and could give their POV?

Also:

Quote

Furthermore, in my two last books, I quoted extracts of a document that is accessible only to high-grade members, so the so-called “blue lodges” [which gather the new members] don’t have access to it. It is taken from Paroles Plurielles — a publication issued by my Masonic order — in which are compiled the best written texts regarding societal issues or Masonic rituals and that are on display in lodges. In this three- or four-page document, there is a text that praises transgression, and the one that allowed it — Lucifer. It is worth noting that Freemasons usually mention Lucifer rather than Satan.

 

Edited February 29, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

Bishop who participated in Freemasonry event affirms its incompatibility with Catholicism | Catholic News Agency

What do you think about his criticisms?

Quote

Staglianò told Vatican News that “Freemasonry is a heresy that is fundamentally aligned with the Arian heresy” since it was Arius “who imagined that Jesus was a great architect of the universe” — the way Freemasons refer to God — “denying the divinity of Christ.”

This idea of the “Architect of the Universe” is incompatible with the Catholic faith because “it is the fruit of human reasoning that tries to imagine a god, while the God of Catholics is the fruit of the very revelation of God in Christ Jesus!”

Quote

For example, in reference to the concept of fraternity, the president of the Pontifical Academy of Theology stated that “our fraternity is established on the sacrament of the love of God in Jesus; it is founded on the Eucharist, not only on the generic idea of being brothers.”

The Italian bishop pointed out that Christian charity “has nothing to do with Masonic philanthropy” because “Christian charity is based on the historical event of a God who died and rose again for us and asks his children not to be merely philanthropic but to be, finally, crucified for love.”

I don’t understand why you can’t have brotherhood and charity for both reasons, why he presents them as if mutually exclusive.

[3DOP]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

On the other hand, not all Catholics agree that recognizing Freemasonry is a great idea.

But in describing why Catholicism is incompatible with Masonry, he also, I would say, shows incompatibility with LDS doctrine.

Not surprisingly.

AND it's revealing to learn how some Catholics think about their doctrines, and ours as well.

https://www.ncregister.com/cna/bishop-who-participated-in-freemasonry-event-affirms-its-incompatibility-with-catholicism

I think you would find no Catholic who "believes everything the Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches" who is in favor of outright recognition of Freemasonry. From Leo XIII in the 19th Century to Francis I in the 21st Century, there is no deviation from the idea that a Catholic cannot join the lodge, nor can a lodge member join the Catholic Church. From the article that you linked at the first:

"And last November, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith reaffirmed that stance, quoting the 1983 document (from the same office) that 'active membership in Freemasonry by a member of the faithful is prohibited, because of the irreconcilability between Catholic doctrine and Freemasonry.'”

Quick question about this: "But in describing why Catholicism is incompatible with Masonry, he also, I would say, shows incompatibility with LDS doctrine." Did you mean Masonic incompatibility with LDS doctrine or Catholic incompatibility?

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

What do you think about his criticisms?

I don’t understand why you can’t have brotherhood and charity for both reasons, why he presents them as if mutually exclusive.

Cal, hi.

The bishop is emphasizing the superiority, as he sees it, of Christian charity. Philanthropy, love of our fellow human beings, our brothers, is what Christ calls us to. 

I would suggest that without a Christian civilization to illustrate and teach universal Brotherhood, the Marxists, Masons, and the French  enlightenment would not have happened. Those movements extract a good thing, brotherhood, extending to many or all, from Christianity. I agree that we should not be critical of philanthropic fraternity, or even liberty, and equality! These are Christian ideals. They are more elevated when they are not divorced from the religion which revealed them. It is needful that we appreciate what these movements have that is true. Nobody is wrong about everything.

 

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Staglianò told Vatican News that “Freemasonry is a heresy that is fundamentally aligned with the Arian heresy” since it was Arius “who imagined that Jesus was a great architect of the universe”

Interesting 🤔 Because I cut this out of a Catholic devotional booklet precisely because it shows Him as an architect:

[MiserereNobis]

24 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Interesting 🤔 Because I cut this out of a Catholic devotional booklet precisely because it shows Him as an architect:

Can you share the source of that image?

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Can you share the source of that image?

It came out of a monthly devotional booklet from months ago. Looking up devotional booklets I'm fairly certain it came out of "Give Us This Day".⁷

 

Edited February 29, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving
Correction of booklet name

[mfbukowski]

On 2/28/2024 at 4:26 PM, 3DOP said:

I think you would find no Catholic who "believes everything the Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches" who is in favor of outright recognition of Freemasonry. From Leo XIII in the 19th Century to Francis I in the 21st Century, there is no deviation from the idea that a Catholic cannot join the lodge, nor can a lodge member join the Catholic Church. From the article that you linked at the first:

"And last November, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith reaffirmed that stance, quoting the 1983 document (from the same office) that 'active membership in Freemasonry by a member of the faithful is prohibited, because of the irreconcilability between Catholic doctrine and Freemasonry.'”

Quick question about this: "But in describing why Catholicism is incompatible with Masonry, he also, I would say, shows incompatibility with LDS doctrine." Did you mean Masonic incompatibility with LDS doctrine or Catholic incompatibility?

The Masonic view is quite close in many ways, to LDS theology- the emphasis on a humanistic view-it has more of a practical way of getting things done- righteous behavior and emphasizing personal testimony.   They both have a more "immanent" focus for their central paradigm than Catholicism.

Catholicism is more obedience oriented to highly abstract doctrine and seeing God as transcendentally different than mankind- therefore Christ needs two "natures"- while for the LDS paradigm,he needs only one nature: human nature, which has elements of possible transcendence already in place.  As I have said before, human nature can me compared to caterpillars !--- you go from crawling on the earth and then receiving wings!  One nature which allows them to simply develop into a "higher" being.

For us God is embodied- that view is not acceptable in Catholicism.   I have actually asked at least two Catholic priests about what became with Jesus' resurrected body- we know he ascended to heaven- but does he still have a body?   So is that body now transcendent or is it immanent?  Is it physical or something else, and why, either way?    Yes the body of Christ is in the Eucharist and in his "Mystical Body" but is that all we know?

And again-Masonry is actually about human fellowship and is not "technically" a religion in itself, but makes assumptions that encourage honorable religious fellowship.

So if you accept the Dicastery pov, one would reject both the LDS views and the Masonic views, yet again, Masonry is not a religion.  It's more about incorporating humanity with divinity for Masonry and the LDS view, while Catholicism I think opposes both as being virtually blasphemous.  Christ needs to have two natures to make his transcendence compatible with his divinity,  while the LDS view sees the transition as one of BECOMING divine as PART of human nature.  And really Masonry then is similar to the LDS view in its emphasis on moral progression and loving one's brother making man better beings, but it does not approach being a "religion".

So I hope that answers your question.  That's how I see it anyway.

Edited March 1, 2024 by mfbukowski
Clarified erroneous wording

[3DOP]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Mormon theology is quite close in many ways, to LDS theology- the emphasis on a humanistic view-it has more of a practical way of getting things done- righteous behavior and emphasizing personal testimony.   The both  "immanence"

Catholicism is more obedience oriented to highly abstract doctrine and seeing God as transcendentally different than mankind- therefore Christ needs two "natures"- while for the LDS paradigm,he needs only one nature: human nature, which has elements of possible transcendence already in place.  As I have said before, human nature can me compared to caterpillars !--- you go from crawling on the earth and then receiving wings!  One nature which allows them to simply develop into a "higher" being.

For us God is embodied- that view is not acceptable in Catholicism.   I have actually asked at least two Catholic priests about what became with Jesus' resurrected body- we know he ascended to heaven- but does he still have a body?   So is that body now transcendent or is it immanent?  Is it physical or something else, and why, either way?    Yes the body of Christ is in the Eucharist and in his "Mystical Body" but is that all we know?

And again-Masonry is actually about human fellowship and is not "technically" a religion in itself, but makes assumptions that encourage honorable religious fellowship.

So if you accept the Dicastery pov, one would reject both the LDS views and the Masonic views, yet again, Masonry is not a religion.  It's more about incorporating humanity with divinity for Masonry and the LDS view, while Catholicism I think opposes both as being virtually blasphemous.  Christ needs to have two natures to make his transcendence compatible with his divinity,  while the LDS view sees the transition as one of BECOMING divine as PART of human nature.  And really Masonry then is similar to the LDS view in its emphasis on moral progression and loving one's brother making man better beings, but it does not approach being a "religion".

So I hope that answers your question.  That's how I see it anyway.

You answered my question, thanks.

Our Lord will always be human. That is the beauty of the Ascension for us! That God has a human body and it resides with the Father in some place we call heaven. There is a lot that is unrevealed about Him preparing a place for us, and His Father's house of many mansions.

It is revealed that The Word became flesh. That means that God is embodied, and being both divine and human He is the mediator between God and man, making it possible for man to be His brother, and call upon our Father. Transcendence was made flesh, and could not be more immanent. Christ invites us to eat his flesh and drink His blood. If you could believe it, that would kind of immanent. Food is by nature immanent. But this heavenly food is extraordinary. Ordinarily the food we eat becomes in a sense, us. It is transformed into our own bodies, pretty immanent. But in holy communion, it is revealed that what we eat does the opposite, we become like the food, taking on the nature of the God-man, which is transcendent as well as immanent.

I would also agree that man is alone ennobled among all the material creation to have elements that are already in place for possible transcendence. How else could we be deified? In what religion is it revealed that any other animal besides man, can become God?

I think we have a lot more common ground than most might imagine. Each camp resolves the Immanence and Transcendence differently. It is good to not give up on having both. We agree that we will have our cake, and eat it too. God is not stingy, He tells us to open our mouths wide, and He will fill it (Ps. 79:11). We need a great faith that is not ashamed to believe in the love of God that desires to elevate human creatures into an enjoyment of the life that is eternal in the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2024 by 3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

You answered my question, thanks.

Our Lord will always be human. That is the beauty of the Ascension for us! That God has a human body and it resides with the Father in some place we call heaven. There is a lot that is unrevealed about Him preparing a place for us, and His Father's house of many mansions.

It is revealed that The Word became flesh. That means that God is embodied, and being both divine and human He is the mediator between God and man, making it possible for man to be His brother, and call upon our Father. Transcendence was made flesh, and could not be more immanent. Christ invites us to eat his flesh and drink His blood. If you could believe it, that would kind of immanent. Food is by nature immanent. But this heavenly food is extraordinary. Ordinarily the food we eat becomes in a sense, us. It is transformed into our own bodies, pretty immanent. But in holy communion, it is revealed that what we eat does the opposite, we become like the food, taking on the nature of the God-man, which is transcendent as well as immanent.

I would also agree that man is alone ennobled among all the material creation to have elements that are already in place for possible transcendence. How else could we be deified? In what religion is it revealed that any other animal besides man, can become God?

I think we have a lot more common ground than most might imagine. Each camp resolves the Immanence and Transcendence differently. It is good to not give up on having both. We agree that we will have our cake, and eat it too. God is not stingy, He tells us to open our mouths wide, and He will fill it (Ps. 79:11). We need a great faith that is not ashamed to believe in the love of God that desires to elevate human creatures into an enjoyment of the life that is eternal in the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

Another upvote!

[mfbukowski]

On 2/28/2024 at 8:29 PM, mfbukowski said:

The Masonic view is quite close in many ways, to LDS theology- the emphasis on a humanistic view-it has more of a practical way of getting things done- righteous behavior and emphasizing personal testimony.   They both have a more "immanent" focus for their central paradigm than Catholicism.

Catholicism is more obedience oriented to highly abstract doctrine and seeing God as transcendentally different than mankind- therefore Christ needs two "natures"- while for the LDS paradigm,he needs only one nature: human nature, which has elements of possible transcendence already in place.  As I have said before, human nature can me compared to caterpillars !--- you go from crawling on the earth and then receiving wings!  One nature which allows them to simply develop into a "higher" being.

For us God is embodied- that view is not acceptable in Catholicism.   I have actually asked at least two Catholic priests about what became with Jesus' resurrected body- we know he ascended to heaven- but does he still have a body?   So is that body now transcendent or is it immanent?  Is it physical or something else, and why, either way?    Yes the body of Christ is in the Eucharist and in his "Mystical Body" but is that all we know?

And again-Masonry is actually about human fellowship and is not "technically" a religion in itself, but makes assumptions that encourage honorable religious fellowship.

So if you accept the Dicastery pov, one would reject both the LDS views and the Masonic views, yet again, Masonry is not a religion.  It's more about incorporating humanity with divinity for Masonry and the LDS view, while Catholicism I think opposes both as being virtually blasphemous.  Christ needs to have two natures to make his transcendence compatible with his divinity,  while the LDS view sees the transition as one of BECOMING divine as PART of human nature.  And really Masonry then is similar to the LDS view in its emphasis on moral progression and loving one's brother making man better beings, but it does not approach being a "religion".

So I hope that answers your question.  That's how I see it anyway.

This is a restatement and edit of my earlier post, which contained garbled language, and I apologize for the mess it was earlier.

[LoudmouthMormon]

My totally a-religious father was a Mason.  He didn't seem to be much of a practicing one, beyond drinking beer with other Masons.  They gave him a Masonic funeral, and I got to see firsthand where the "Mormons stole temple content from the Masons" stuff came from.  Friendly people, focused on the importance of trades and skilled professions, but as solemn and reverent when involved in their sacred things as the most devout LDS temple worker. 

[Saint Bonaventure]

On 2/28/2024 at 7:25 PM, Calm said:

What do you think about his criticisms?

I don’t understand why you can’t have brotherhood and charity for both reasons, why he presents them as if mutually exclusive.

Catholics have official and unofficial objections to symbolic Free Masonry. These go back to the early 18th century, and were affirmed as recently as St. Pope John Paul II. They condemn secret societies for their undermining both the Church and the State, Masonic notions of God that are highly similar to the Gnostic notions of the Demiurge, and Free Masons' anti-clericalism. 

Unofficially, on some level Catholic objections to Free Masonry are also rooted in the fact that Robespierre and others in the French Revolution were Free Masons. Also, there is a certain framing of the Free Masons in Italy that reminds of the framing of organized crime more generally.