Universalism

[pogi]

I have been studying some about the history of Universalism in and out of the church and have found it a fascinating topic and wanted to discuss it further with the good folk here.  

The earliest known teachings on universalism date back to Origen.  George De Benneville brought it from Europe to Pennsylvania in 1741.  John Murray made it popular in the 1770's.  Universalism was a hot topic in the area and time of Joseph Smith.   Joseph's own Grandfather, Aesel Smith, his father Joseph Smith Sr. and his Uncle Jesse actually founded a short-lived Universalist Society in Topsfield, Massachusetts in 1797.  Aesel remained an ardent Universalist up until his death, although there is some family tradition suggesting that he renounced it on his deathbed.   While Lucy leaned more Methodist, her father Solom was a Universalist, Martin Harris, Joseph Knight and his family were all Universalists.  Universalism, while hotly debated was a minority view and Joseph Smith Sr. was heavily criticized by his neighbors for his Universalist disposition which was viewed as heresy by many.  It seems that Joseph was surrounded by a Universalist influence as the restoration began to unfold, and seemed to lean toward his father's universal beliefs which allowed him to remain unbaptized even at the age of 12 and felt at liberty to explore and take and incorporate truth from a diversity of beliefs and perspectives and from wherever it may come (an idea he carried over into Mormonism).  Some scholars suggest that the restoration might not have taken place without the fertile soil of his Universalist leaning which allowed him to explore more freely.

In speaking of Universalism, there are two main branches - 1) The Univeral Restorationists (hardly in existence today it seems), and 2) the Ultra-Universalists.  The Ultra-Universalists are those who believe that all will be saved with no punishment.  They do not necessarily believe in the divinity of Jesus or the need for atonement.  The Restorationists on the other hand believe that unrepentant sinners will go through a period of punishment, cleansing, refinement and preparation which could take potentially thousands of years after death before they are prepared to enter God's presence in His kingdom (sound familiar?).  The word "restorationist" is being used in this instance in a different way than we are accustomed to thinking of the word.  Instead of being used to refer to the restoration of the church from apostacy, it is being used to refer to the universal restoration of all souls from the fall.  It erases the effects of original sin through the universal atonement (sound familiar?) and will eventually lead to the salvation of all. 

The more liberal Unitarian Universalist Association/church which decries all creeds and accepts truth from all sources aligns very closely with Joseph's early statements on creeds and liberty of belief.    Many of the sectarian Universalist arguments of Joseph's day make an appearance in the Book of Mormon in Nehor, Amlici, Ammonihah, the Zoramites, Corianton, Mormon address it in Helaman, the satisfaction theory of atonement (a medieval theological development) is addressed in Alma and Amulek's sermons.  Amulek condemns the Ultra-Universalist beliefs of the nature of human soul after death when addressing the Zoramites.   Many point this out as an anachronism.  Mormon scholars like Terryl Givens suggest that they are not anachronism because the audience of the Book of Mormon was people in the modern era, and the book was written to address the problems of our day.   That to me seems to be a weak argument because it doesn't address the existence of the belief in Book of Mormon times.  I think there are probably much better arguments to be made if one holds to a historical approach to the Book of Mormon. 

Despite Joseph's universalist leanings, the Book of Mormon interestingly pretty strongly condemns universalist beliefs with a few exceptions including children.  Many anti-universalists were converted and found a home in the Book of Mormon.   Then came the 1829 revelation to Martin Harris (who was a universalist) who had questions about Universalist doctrine.  In the revelation (Section 19) "eternal damnation" and "endless torment" are used in scripture to "work upon the hearts of the children of men", but the mystery revealed is that "Endless" and "Eternal" are names of God and not in reference to never-ending punishment.  Then later n 1832 came the more comprehensive revelation on the subject called "The Vision" where our beloved degrees of glory are explained.   Despite being a cherished doctrine today, it is interesting to note that at the time it was a sorely received by many, many members who were anti-universalists and felt this a departure from the Book of Mormon which converted them.  "The Vision" was kept hidden/secret from the membership for five months over fear that many would apostatize over it.  

Brigham Young Said in relation to The Vision:

 "His plans are to gather up, and bring together, and save all the inhabitants of the earth, with the exception of those who have received the Holy Ghost, and sinned against it. With this exception, all the world besides shall be saved.—Is not this Universalism? It borders very close upon it."

Parley P. Pratt:

"This salvation being universal, I am a universalist in this respect,—this salvation being a universal restoration from the fall"

Joseph Young (Brigham's brother):

"I could not believe it at first. Why the Lord was going to save every body"

I don't have time to develop this OP further right now, but wanted to get this out there to spark some discussion on the topic of universalism, its history in and out of the church and its influence.  It seems that our doctrine aligns very closely with Universal Restorationism with a few subtleties of degrees of salvation and only an almost invisibly tiny fraction who will receive no salvation (although some argue that section 19 aligns with Univeral Restorationist ideas that their suffering will not be "Endless", as that is in reference to God's name and not the duration of suffering - I am thinking of @JLHPROF here, if he is still around).  

If anyone wants to develop the history of Universalism further, please feel free, or if you have any thoughts on the history or topic please share.  I wish I had some questions to better direct the discussion, but will leave it open for now and will let the questions and comments evolve organically. 

My references are on another computer right now, so they will have to wait.  

One interesting final note is that I found it interesting that the only 2 existing Universalist movements of any significance that I am aware of are us and the Unitarian Universalist Association who are more aligned with Ultra-Universalism although they allow any and all beliefs as they refuse to uphold any creeds.  However, it appears that Universalism is making a come-back within Christianity.  While there are not really any churches that I am aware of who uphold the belief, it appears there are many within Protestantism and Catholicism which profess belief in the doctrine and are trying to stimulate more movement towards Universalism from within.  Of the two existing Universalist organizations, for whatever reason we seem to occupy the two far extremes in terms of members who identify as politically conservative or liberal.  One study showed that our church had the highest percentage of republicans while the UU's had the highest percentage of democrats, with everyone else having a more balanced membership between the two extremes.  Not sure why that is, but there you go. 

Sorry for the disjointed and incomplete thoughts, just wanted to quickly get something started on the subject before my next patient. 

 

 

 

  

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by pogi

[InCognitus]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have been studying some about the history of Universalism in and out of the church and have found it a fascinating topic and wanted to discuss it further with the good folk here.  

You mentioned Terryl Givens in your post, so maybe you are using some of his research already.  But in his book, Wrestling the Angel - The Foundations of Mormon Thought: Cosmos, God, Humanity (Oxford University Press, 2015) he discusses the history of Universalism and it's relationship to the restored church in good detail (mostly in his chapter on Salvation).  But the idea of a temporary "hell" and the work of redeeming the dead are at the core of this thinking from a Latter-day Saint point of view, of course.  Others have also noticed that hell is temporary.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

You mentioned Terryl Givens in your post, so maybe you are using some of his research already.  But in his book, Wrestling the Angel - The Foundations of Mormon Thought: Cosmos, God, Humanity (Oxford University Press, 2015) he discusses the history of Universalism and it's relationship to the restored church in good detail (mostly in his chapter on Salvation).  But the idea of a temporary "hell" and the work of redeeming the dead are at the core of this thinking from a Latter-day Saint point of view, of course.  Others have also noticed that hell is temporary.

Yes, the idea that hell is temporary is the central belief of Universal Restorationism, which Joseph was surrounded by growing up.   It's actually quite an old belief:

Quote

Hart observes that “. . . patristic theologians as diverse as Origen, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa, and Isaac of Nineveh saw in the phrase aionios kolasis (typically translated as ‘eternal punishment,’ but possible to read as ‘correction for a long period’ or ‘for an age’ or even ‘in the age to come’) no cause to conclude that hell was anything but a temporary process of spiritual purification.” 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/richardmurray/2020/08/surveying-the-early-churchs-view-of-hell/

Universal restorationists believe like us that one can be redeemed from hell (I have even seen the term "spirit prison" used) through the same process that is required in this life, namely repentance, faith, and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord.  What distinguishes us in our version of universalism is the belief and practice of proxy ordinances of baptism, etc. for the dead as a necessary means to be redeemed from hell.  The other difference is our version of varied degrees of glory.        

Edited May 26, 2023 by pogi

[Benjamin McGuire]

Universalism has a strange place within Mormonism. Mormonism teaches that everyone who is born into mortality is saved from the affects of the fall. Mormonism teaches that all who are born into mortality will receive a degree of exaltation except for those few who become 'sons of perdition'. The only debate within Mormonism has been over the question of whether or not mortality sets some sort of limit on eternal progression. For some it does not - as Elder Clark (First Presidency) wrote in 1960 in the Church News:

Quote

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.

With the exception of those sons of perdition, this is a reasonably universalist view. On the other hand, Elder McConkie labeled this as one of his great heresies.

Another issue is D&C 137, which suggests that God doesn't necessarily judge us by what we do, but rather by what we might have done under different circumstances. That is, in my opinion, God takes into consideration the fact that we have limited knowledge and limited agency in our lives. This remains in our doctrine of universal opportunity (and is reflected in our work for the dead).

[pogi]

On the subject of Universalism and Mormonism, and just for fun here is a really fantastic sermon by a UU Pastor(?) about how a Mormon (Evan) made him a Unitarian Universalist.   There is some really great introspection and questions on his part and an inspiring message.  I am so happy for all the wonderful and inspiring Evan's we have in our faith. 

His talk begins at the 2:45 mark if you want to skip ahead:

 

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Universal restorationists believe like us that one can be redeemed from hell (I have even seen the term "spirit prison" used) through the same process that is required in this life, namely repentance, faith, and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord.  What distinguishes us in our version of universalism is the belief and practice of proxy ordinances of baptism, etc. for the dead as a necessary means to be redeemed from hell.

It's not surprising to me that others have come up with this, because our view (and the universalist view that you describe) can be derived from a careful reading of the Bible (even terminology like "spirit prison").  But I think the prevailing dichotomy between heaven and hell in modern Christianity hasn't been helped by the conflation of gehenna and hades into our English word "hell", and this has happened even in the Douay-Rheims Vulgate translation of inferi and gehennae into the English "hell".

And add to that the meaning of "everlasting destruction", for which Givens provides an interesting quote from John Murray, where he says, "'it is one thing to be punished with everlasting destruction, and another to be everlastingly punished with destruction.'  The pain of a candle flame, he clarified, is brief, but the pain is still 'of everlasting fire.'" (Wrestling the Angel, p. 244, quoting Murray, Letters And Sketches of Sermons, 2:253).

2 hours ago, pogi said:

The other difference is our version of varied degrees of glory.        

This is another concept that I think can be easily discerned from the Bible.  It's obvious in the parables of Jesus, like the parable of the sheep and the goats (for example), that he's talking about the extremes.  Otherwise, just how much doing "unto the least of these my brethren" does it take to get a person out of the goat category and into the realm of sheep?  And what about the parable of the sower, where we have those who receive the "seed" and bear fruit, some thirty fold, some sixty, and some one hundred fold?  And when talking to the hypocritical Pharisees, Jesus says they will have a "greater damnation".  What's worse than hell?  Or how are some called the "greatest" in the kingdom of heaven?   

It all seems to be implied in the text in my opinion, but it also requires a person to shed some of their preconceptions going into the reading.

Edited May 27, 2023 by InCognitus

[manol]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

... if you have any thoughts on the history or topic please share.

Very interesting!  I didn't realize how strongly universalism figured into Joseph Smith's family. 

I've never really thought of Mormonism as a “universalist” religion, though I suppose compared to most it falls more towards that end of the spectrum. There are teachings within Mormonism which are arguably consistent with a universalist paradigm.

I think my own views fall towards the “universalist” end of the spectrum, though I don't know whether they are compatible with any universalist religion(s). For instance I no longer fear for anyone's soul and therefore no longer think the final outcome is in question, though the path home may be a long one. 

I think there is a point of view, a most valid point of view, from which nobody is condemned, and I think this is the point of view held by the Divine.  And I realize this idea may not be compatible with very many religions.

Edited May 27, 2023 by manol

[Kevin Christensen]

I have a long section responding to claims of anachronistic universalism in the Book of Mormon in a 1995 Review if Books on the Book of Mormon 7/2 essay, "Paradigms Crossed", specifically pages 201 to 208.  Among many other things I note that the leader of the Restorationist faction of Universalism had been influenced by de Beneville's near death vision, and Alma had been converted while "nigh unto death." 

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Temporarily vacationing near San Diego

[mfbukowski]

Our universalism has been clear to me since I first "investigated" the church paradigm, and periodically we should all I think, examine that paradigm as if we were new to the church.  

I did not and could not believe that we were all burdened with "original sin", it never made sense to me that I should be punished for something that someone else did that was wrong. 

My parents didn't punish me for what others did so why should God do that?

And burning in hell forever? Really? Maybe for very few.

Purgatory, temporary punishment made sense.

So now, studying Mormonism, you have the idea presented that everyone gets a Kingdom of glory except very very few who have ALREADY achieved the highest level of knowing God and then denying that?  Who would do that??

It is almost logically untenable to me!! 

But for the very few, what is the punishment? Eternal burning? NO!

It's separation from the God they have already denied forever!

Isn't that kind of like never seeing your ex-wife again?

We all need to take the missionary lessons and forget the mixed messages we picked up perhaps from mommy and daddy.

Yes we teach a temporary "hell" aka "spirit prison"

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time! 🧐

 

[mfbukowski]

Error. Link turned out to be suspicious 

Edited May 27, 2023 by mfbukowski

[manol]

4 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

I have a long section responding to claims of anachronistic universalism in the Book of Mormon in a 1995 Review if Books on the Book of Mormon 7/2 essay, "Paradigms Crossed", specifically pages 201 to 208.  Among many other things I note that the leader of the Restorationist faction of Universalism had been influenced by de Beneville's near death vision, and Alma had been converted while "nigh unto death."

Thank you for mentioning de Benneville.  Not being familiar with him, I did a quick google search and found this article, which includes his written account of his fascinating and extensive near-death vision:

https://christianuniversalist.org/resources/articles/nde-debenneville/

For anyone interested in the subject, Kevin Christiansen authored a paper published by BYU in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies entitled "Night unto Death: NDE Research and the Book of Mormon":

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1015&context=jbms

My own universalist views are largely informed by near-death experience accounts and limited personal experience. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by manol

[Nevo]

20 hours ago, pogi said:

Some scholars suggest that the restoration might not have taken place without the fertile soil of his Universalist leaning which allowed him to explore more freely.

Dan Vogel has argued, on the basis of D&C 19, that Joseph Smith was a secret Universalist: "Despite posing as a traditionalist in regard to heaven and hell, Smith privately aligned himself with the Universalists and did not himself fear an eternal, never-ending punishment" (Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, xix). But I'm not convinced that that Joseph had any Universalist leanings in the 1820s (or even in the 1830s).

Grant Underwood has noted that Joseph, like other early Saints, seems to have maintained a traditional Protestant view of heaven and hell until well into the 1840s, notwithstanding D&C 19 and D&C 76.

In his 1838-39 account, Joseph described being attracted to Methodism in his teens: "In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them." This is confirmed by Palmyra acquaintances Orsamus Turner and Pomeroy Tucker. Turner remembered that Joseph had caught "a spark of Methodism in the camp meeting, away down in the woods, on the Vienna road," and later became "a very passable exhorter in the evening meetings." Tucker recalled that "at one time [Smith] joined the probationary class of the Methodism church in Palmyra, and made some active demonstrations of engagedness." Methodists were among the leading opponents of Universalism in western New York in the 1820s.

[manol]

oops double post

Edited May 27, 2023 by manol

[manol]

1 hour ago, Nevo said:

Dan Vogel has argued, on the basis of D&C 19, that Joseph Smith was a secret Universalist: "Despite posing as a traditionalist in regard to heaven and hell, Smith privately aligned himself with the Universalists and did not himself fear an eternal, never-ending punishment" (Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, xix). 

Along with Section 19 ("Eternal" punishment is actually temporary), here are a few other LDS concepts which imo are consistent with universalism:

- All are alike unto God

- Without our dead we cannot be saved (which ultimately includes all who have lived)

- All things shall work together for our good

It seems to me that universalism is incompatible with ideas of "specialness"; my own views in that area were shifted considerably. 

Universalism arguably paves the way for union to replace separation in our mental constructs.

Universalism offers a theoretical foundation for the injunction to "forgive all men", as simultaneously it cuts us some slack if we ourselves are not yet able to do so.  

Edited May 27, 2023 by manol

[Navidad]

8 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

I have a long section responding to claims of anachronistic universalism in the Book of Mormon in a 1995 Review if Books on the Book of Mormon 7/2 essay, "Paradigms Crossed", specifically pages 201 to 208.  Among many other things I note that the leader of the Restorationist faction of Universalism had been influenced by de Beneville's near death vision, and Alma had been converted while "nigh unto death." 

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Temporarily vacationing near San Diego

San Diego, California or San Diego, Chihuahua?

[manol]

6 hours ago, Nevo said:

Dan Vogel has argued, on the basis of D&C 19, that Joseph Smith was a secret Universalist... But I'm not convinced that that Joseph had any Universalist leanings in the 1820s (or even in the 1830s).

Grant Underwood has noted that Joseph, like other early Saints, seems to have maintained a traditional Protestant view of heaven and hell until well into the 1840s, notwithstanding D&C 19 and D&C 76.

This occurs to me:

Universalism doesn't really make a strong "call to action".  Therefore a universalist paradigm arguably would not have helped Joseph Smith to accomplish the work he set out to do, which not only required an enormous amount of action on his part, but also included his calling a great many other people to a great deal of action.  If he was indeed a "secret Universalist" that might explain his optimism, even if it was not one of his overt teachings.

Edited May 28, 2023 by manol

[Kevin Christensen]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

San Diego, California or San Diego, Chihuahua?

California.  We've been visiting zoos with children and granddaughters.

Kevin Christensen

[Nevo]

1 minute ago, manol said:

This occurs to me:

Universalism doesn't really make a strong "call to action".  Therefore a universalist paradigm arguably would not have helped Joseph Smith to accomplish the work he set out to do, which not only required an enormous amount of action on his part, but also including his calling a great many other people to a great deal of action.  If he was indeed a "secret Universalist" that might explain his optimism, even if it was not one of his overt teachings.

I tend to think Joseph inherited some of his mother's Calvinist understanding of God. For example, Joseph interpreted the cholera that struck Zion's Camp as a punishment from God for their lack of unity. Here Richard Bushman notes: "No revelation told Joseph that God had sent the cholera. He read his own ideas about Deity into the event. In the retelling, Joseph called Him Jehovah, whose Old Testament character punished recalcitrants with suffering and death. In the camp's extremity, Joseph seems to have called up a God out of his Puritan past, a God who would destroy His own people if they neglected His commands. This was the God, we must assume, to whom Joseph felt responsible for establishing Zion and preparing his people for exaltation, a God harsh and implacable, inflicting punishment on those who failed" (Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 246; emphasis mine).

This severe, exacting God makes several appearances in the D&C. Section 5, for example, warns that "woe shall come unto the inhabitants of the earth if they will not hearken unto my words . . . . and a desolating scourge shall go forth among the inhabitants of the earth, and shall continue to be poured out from time to time, if they repent not, until the earth is empty, and the inhabitants thereof are consumed away and utterly destroyed by the brightness of my coming" (see also Joseph's letter to N. C. Saxton and its follow-up). 

But then we also have passages like D&C 128:22–23 that are quite optimistic.

 

[pogi]

On 5/26/2023 at 4:57 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

Universalism has a strange place within Mormonism. Mormonism teaches that everyone who is born into mortality is saved from the affects of the fall. Mormonism teaches that all who are born into mortality will receive a degree of exaltation except for those few who become 'sons of perdition'. The only debate within Mormonism has been over the question of whether or not mortality sets some sort of limit on eternal progression. For some it does not - as Elder Clark (First Presidency) wrote in 1960 in the Church News:

With the exception of those sons of perdition, this is a reasonably universalist view. On the other hand, Elder McConkie labeled this as one of his great heresies.

Another issue is D&C 137, which suggests that God doesn't necessarily judge us by what we do, but rather by what we might have done under different circumstances. That is, in my opinion, God takes into consideration the fact that we have limited knowledge and limited agency in our lives. This remains in our doctrine of universal opportunity (and is reflected in our work for the dead).

It seems that Elder McConkie thought it heresy precisely because it led to universalism.  His anti-universal arguments mirrored the same arguments of Joseph Smith's time and are surely derived from the seeming anti-universalist stance of the Book of Mormon.  Elder McKonkie:

Quote

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, 'God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?' It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

This has always been one of the primary arguments of anti-universalists.  Similar statements are seen by the minister John Devotion in 1801, for example:

Quote

If there is no future judgment, they are certainly excusable who say, 'Let us eat and drink, for to morrow we die'. To suppose the future judgment is not a final and unalterable determination of our future state, opens the door to all manner of licentiousness in this life. That the punishment of the wicked will not be eternal, is ... believed by some at this day, to the destruction of vital piety and the morals of them who receive it

We all recognize this same anti universalist argument in the Book of Mormon:

Quote

Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Is this fear that universalism leads to "licentiousness" well grounded in history?  It seems to me that the universalists of history, starting with Origen, seem to be as honorable and moral as the rest.   We have had 5 US presidents that were universalists, including Thomas Jefferson.  Here is a list of notable universalist in Us history including Paul Revere, and Ralph Waldo Emerson, of course, among many others.  From what I can tell of UU members, they are up-right and honest people who subscribe to the values and morals of humanism - they are not about taking advantage of others because it will all be good in the end.  

Did McConkie realize how many people he was throwing under the bus as heretics?  Besides the one you mention, here are several others: 

Quote

•    Charlotte Haven, a contemporary of Joseph Smith, records him as saying that a spirit in the lowest kingdom “constantly progresses in spiritual knowledge until safely landed in the Celestial.”

•    Brigham Young taught that “those who fail to secure exaltation by the conclusion of their earthly probation ‘would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy & advancing to a Celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process.'” [Double quotes here are the Givenses; single quotes are Young.]

•    Lorenzo Snow: “You that are mourning about your children straying away will…get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory.”

•    B.H. Roberts: “The ministry alluded to in each kingdom seemed meaningless ‘unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progress.'” [Again, double quotes here are the Givenses; single quotes are Roberts.]

•    James Talmage, in the first edition of Articles of Faith: “Advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for….Eternity is progressive.”

•    Joseph F. Smith: “There is a time after this mortal life, and there is a way provided by which we may fulfill the measure of our creation and destiny, and accomplish the whole great work that we have been sent to do, although it may reach far into the future before we fully accomplish it.”

•    J. Reuben Clark Jr.: “We do not ‘seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that…if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed.”

•    James E. Faust: “I recognize that now is the time to meet God….If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance?…Perhaps in this life we are not given to fully understand how enduring the sealing cords of righteous parents are to their children….I believe there is a strong familial pull as the influence of beloved ancestors continues with us from the other side of the veil.”

Even if we remove the potential for progression between kingdoms, each kingdom is salvation and thus represents universalism.  Researcher Brian D. Birch calls Mormonism "soft universalism" for that reason.  

Edited May 28, 2023 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

California.  We've been visiting zoos with children and granddaughters.

Kevin Christensen

I used to live on the edge of the park in which the zoo is located.  We could hear the animals sometimes even though they were about a mile away as the crow flies.

That is if the crows had gotten out, of course.  😳

[Sara H]

On 5/26/2023 at 11:44 PM, manol said:

Very interesting!  I didn't realize how strongly universalism figured into Joseph Smith's family. 

I've never really thought of Mormonism as a “universalist” religion, though I suppose compared to most it falls more towards that end of the spectrum. There are teachings within Mormonism which are arguably consistent with a universalist paradigm.

I think my own views fall towards the “universalist” end of the spectrum, though I don't know whether they are compatible with any universalist religion(s). For instance I no longer fear for anyone's soul and therefore no longer think the final outcome is in question, though the path home may be a long one. 

I think there is a point of view, a most valid point of view, from which nobody is condemned, and I think this is the point of view held by the Divine.  And I realize this idea may not be compatible with very many religions.

According to the definition of universalism, it indicates that all of humanity will be saved in the end. To compare the LDS faith to universalism, we must first define what "saved" means. "Saved" means aaved from sin and its consequences, which include death and SEPARATION from God, according to a Christian. Isn't the Christian definition of salvation different from the Mormon definition? I believe the church teaches that even after salvation, a person might be estranged from God. Only exaltation can bring us back into his presence. 

 

I don't believe our teachings are even close to universalism's beliefs. The majority of the teachings we follow teach that after mortal death, most will be separated from God. 

 

[Jaydes]

I would consider myself along the lines of a Restorationist Universalist.

 

 Here is another relevant quote from Joseph Smith:

 

"All sins and blasphemy, were to be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost. God has made provision for every spirit in the eternal world, and the spirits of our friends should be searched out and saved, Any man that has a friend in eternity can save him if he has not commit the unpardonable sin, He cannot be damned through all eternity, there is a possibility for his escape in a little time, If a man has knowledge he can be saved, if he has been guilty of great sins he is punished for it, when he consents to obey the gospel whether, Alive or dead, he is saved, his own mind damns him. I have no fear of hellfire that dont exist, No man can commit the unpardonable sin, until He receives the Holy Ghost, All will suffer untill they obey Christ himself, even the devil said I am a savior and can save all rose up in rebelion against God and was cast down. Jesus Christ will save all except the sons of perdition. "

[JLHPROF]

It seems to me the whole question of Universalism requires a belief in a binary judgement.  Saved or lost, heaven or hell, sinners and saints, everyone or just specific people.

I'm not convinced that our theology accepts such a limited view.

Christ says all will be saved except perdition.  But not all among the saved will be in identical situation. If we confuse salvation from perdition into eternal life to be the only end then sure, I'm a universalist.

But our scripture indicates that eternal judgement will bring about anything but a universal result.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Sara H said:

According to the definition of universalism, it indicates that all of humanity will be saved in the end. To compare the LDS faith to universalism, we must first define what "saved" means. "Saved" means aaved from sin and its consequences, which include death and SEPARATION from God, according to a Christian. Isn't the Christian definition of salvation different from the Mormon definition? I believe the church teaches that even after salvation, a person might be estranged from God. Only exaltation can bring us back into his presence. 

 

I don't believe our teachings are even close to universalism's beliefs. The majority of the teachings we follow teach that after mortal death, most will be separated from God. 

 

LDS folks ARE Christians!

I think you are speaking of "Creedal Christians" who accept the Nicene Creed.

All who do not go to outer darkness will receive a Kingdom of glory, at least the telestial Kingdom after Spirit Prison

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by mfbukowski

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

LDS folks ARE Christians!

I think you are speaking of "Creedal Christians" who accept the Nicene Creed.

All who do not go to outer darkness will receive a Kingdom of glory, at least the telestial Kingdom after Spirit Prison

 

Other than the Christian term, everything she said is accurate.  if we are not exalted, we will be separated from God.  This is not taught by other Christian churches.