On Representation of the 3 Witnesses in the Media

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

It's mormon doctrine! The gospel of christ was taken back to heaven to be protected from apostate church's, church's like the catholic church. In other words, Christianity was taken from earth and all that was left was apostate church's. Anyone on this forum over 35 years old believes this to be 100% truth, that's the truth! And yes, they will not admit it now that the internet saves everything. 

If you don't believe it why would you accept callings, work your.....whatever off, pay tithing etc?

No one then pays tithing, right?

But the church get rich by some evil plot that none of the members know, right?

This stuff is laughable. 

[mfbukowski]

54 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

I'm in Virginia Beach. 

 

Mormons believe salvation is a free gift. We're not concerned about salvation, we're concerned about exaltation, exaltation is what we desire. 

Who's this "we"? You hate Mormons but you are one?

Interesting in itself.

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

Let me put it this way. Every mormon reading this that's over 35 years old understands exactly what I'm explaining to you and deep down they agree. They're not going to tell u that, but trust me, they agree with me. We were taught catholics are some of the worst Christians on earth. In my area we were taught Baptist are some of the worst Christians on earth and the missionaries would kick the dust from their feet everything they had a Baptist close the front door on them. Every mormon reading this grew up believing we were reserved in heaven because we were rock stars in the war in heaven. God needed us to come yo earth in the last days so we could stand up to the apostate church's like the catholic church. We believe we are the only people on earth with divine power from God. That's very important to understand, we believe we and we alone have power fron on high, no other Christians share that power. That's important to understand because in the past 15 or so years mormonism has tried to wiggle its way inside the tent if Christianity. 

So if Mormons think they're Christians lie every other Christian denomination,  why do they still believe they hold all the power from God in the Mormon church? If catholics are Christians, why don't the missionaries say, "sorry for knocking on your door my catholic friend, we didn't know you're Christian, well walk away?" Because they still want yo convert you because deep down mormonism stills think we are the only true Christians.

I think someone grew up around a lot of fundamentalist McConkieites and is projecting their experience onto everyone in the church. I don’t agree with you. The one time I jokingly suggested to my Mission President that I was dusting my feet off on people he went pale and was probably about to tell me to knock it off before I told him I was joking.

You weird.

[MiserereNobis]

I know that harsh things were said about the Catholic Church by LDS leaders and believers in years past. In years past, most religions had harsh things to say about others, and often those harsh words escalated to violence, such as the Wars of the Reformation that I've mentioned.

We've had discussions here over McConkie's Mormon Doctrine (I googled it to make sure I got the name right) and his claim that the Catholic Church was the church of the devil. I think the explanation is perfectly reasonable that the LDS church had some low-church protestant cultural baggage since most converts, especially in the beginning, were protestants. And it would be easy to find quotes from Catholic leaders and members saying disparaging things about LDS, too.

I'm glad we're all moving beyond that. We can disagree, even on fundamental things like the nature of God and who has God's authority, without having to resort to vituperation. I don't believe LDS restorationist truth claims, just like you don't believe Catholic apostolic succession truth claims, but we pretty much all get along, and that's wonderful. I don't feel a need to have an explanation for what happened with Joseph Smith, because I honestly don't know, and it seems awfully short sighted to try to wave it away by saying he was under the influence of Satan or whatever (same with the Buddha or Muhammad or most founders of a religion).

Smac quoted Daniel Peterson saying the following:

Quote

Daniel C. Peterson said:

A knowledgeable academic friend who does not believe in the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon once asked me, since it seems that the plates were not actually necessary to the translation process and were sometimes not even present in the room, what purpose they served. I responded that I did not know, exactly, except for one thing: They are an indigestible lump in the throats of people like him who contend that there were no Nephites but that Joseph Smith was nonetheless an inspired prophet. If the plates really existed, somebody made them. And if no Nephites existed to make them, then either Joseph Smith, or God, or somebody else seems to have been engaged in simple fraud. The testimony of the witnesses exists, I think, to force a dichotomous choice: true or false? 

I don't really go along with the bold. It's too black and white. I'm choosing to live in the grey of "I don't know what happened" and like I said, I don't feel a need to have to explain the origins of the LDS faith in order to remain Catholic. I've certainly felt edified intellectually, socially, and often spiritually by being on this board, and that works for me.

[InCognitus]

2 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

Please explain this then! What does it mean when it says the gospel was taken from earth? 

Do you understand the difference between "the gospel" and "the fulness of the gospel"?  (Obviously not).

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

Now you're straight up lying! You know for a mormon fact you were taught the true gospel was taken from the earth, why else would Joseph have to restore it?

I'm not lying Mike.  I think your understanding of the gospel is just a little confused so you aren't aware that you are saying we believe things that we actually don't believe.

Joseph Smith had to restore priesthood authority that had been lost because of the choices of men and women.  The restoration was not needed because God took the gospel away to protect it.

Below are some excerpts from the book True to the Faith (another book that was considered to be a part of the "missionary library" that missionaries were allowed to take on their missions and read to help them teach better). 

"After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread wickedness, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth."

(we generally refer to this as the Great Apostasy to differentiate it from other times of apostasy throughout the ages).  

"During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel."

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think someone grew up around a lot of fundamentalist McConkieites and is projecting their experience onto everyone in the church. I don’t agree with you. The one time I jokingly suggested to my Mission President that I was dusting my feet off on people he went pale and was probably about to tell me to knock it off before I told him I was joking.

You weird.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  It sounds like Mike grew up in an area that had some "distinct" ideas about our doctrine without realizing that most members wouldn't recognize the church teachings that he is trying to describe.

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

You're a fxxxxxx liar. All missionaries around our age no exactly what I talking about. 

Do you really have to resort to this?

Oh yeah, I almost forgot that you're trolling.

By the way, do you want to help me with my grading? It might be up your alley. See, Polonius believed that the way to find truth was through lies and deception. My students had to find and thoroughly explain an example of this in the play. The obvious one was how Polonius told his servant to lie about Laertes to see what Laertes was really up to. But there's also Polonius hiding behind an arras not once, but twice!

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Truth Teller said:

I knew that was coming🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. That's bullshxx and you know it!! Joseph, Brigham and every other prophet taught the Christian denominations on earth are all of the devil. Brigham taught they were taken over by paganism!!!! Don't try to bullshxx me just so you can save face infront of the non Mormons on the board.

Why would we lie Mike?  If our whole purpose is to have people learn about the church so they can become members, lying wouldn't work.  They would know we were lying as soon as they started attending, and then they wouldn't get baptized (or continue to come if they already had).

 

[Navidad]

15 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

You sir are straight up lying and you know it. You are familiar with the second anointing but you chose to protect the church and its most secret ceremony. 

I know about the second anointing because I have studied LDS history. It may be something that happens in the temple, but its existence and purpose is no secret. Isaac Haight of MMM fame was on his way from Mexico to St. George in the 1880s for his second annointing by either John Taylor or Wilford Woodruff (I forget which) - I think it was President Taylor when he had a heart attack and died in Thatcher, Arizona. I also have been told by LDS scholars that it rarely is practiced anymore, so it is more of a historical ordinance event.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

You're a fxxxxxx liar. All missionaries around our age no exactly what I talking about. 

You haven't found one member in the age group you keep talking about that knows what you are talking about though.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

You're a fxxxxxx liar. All missionaries around our age no exactly what I talking about. 

No wonder you consider the Church to be a cult. You seem to sincerely believe we are all carbon copies of you with the exact same experiences except you are willing to tell the truth. And by the truth I mean venerate folklore teachings and scriptural rationalizations common a few decades back as absolute truth.

So when do you think the Ten Tribes will return from beneath that glacier they have been living underground within?

[Hamilton Porter]

15 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Do you understand the difference between "the gospel" and "the fulness of the gospel"?  (Obviously not).

Qualifiers are going to make his puny brain explode.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Truth Teller said:

What a truly sad individual you are! Please explain the quotes I posted from Joseph and Brigham! That's mormonism for anyone over the age of 35. 

Explain the quotes? They are quotes. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young probably said them.

Good boy for digging them up on some site. Have a cookie.

It would really be Mormonism for anyone over the age of about 170 considering when they were said/written. Of course a couple of random quotes don’t sum up the whole faith and you will find other quotes from both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that are less absolute and you will find a verse in the Doctrine and Covenants talking about how some Christians who are not members are sincere followers of Christ.

I guess you missed those. Not everyone over the age of 35 did though. Why are you so lazy compared to everyone else? So sad.

[Navidad]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think someone grew up around a lot of fundamentalist McConkieites and is projecting their experience onto everyone in the church. I don’t agree with you. The one time I jokingly suggested to my Mission President that I was dusting my feet off on people he went pale and was probably about to tell me to knock it off before I told him I was joking.

You weird.

Hey my friend. If you ever need help dusting your feet off, I have had lots of experience washing people's feet in the Mennonite church! Of course whenever we had a footwashing service, the last thing we did before going to church was to wash our feet so they wouldn't be dirty for the ordinance! 😀

[Navidad]

20 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't really go along with the bold. It's too black and white. I'm choosing to live in the grey of "I don't know what happened" and like I said, I don't feel a need to have to explain the origins of the LDS faith in order to remain Catholic. I've certainly felt edified intellectually, socially, and often spiritually by being on this board, and that works for me.

I am with you! Well said!

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Truth Teller said:

What's wrong ,nehor! The truth of what the prophets said hurt your feelings? Hard to pull the wool over the non Mormons eyes when someone actually brings the facts!

Your condescension comes across as a little pathetic when it comes from someone who hasn’t mastered punctuation and capitalization.

My conflicts and difficulties with the gospel are orders of magnitude beyond juvenile and puerile “gotcha” quotes from a (to quote a wizard) “witless worm”.

 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Truth Teller said:

Going try you dumb fxxx! Keep lying! So now you're trying say mormonism of the 1800s is irrelevant? Of course you are. The quotes I supplied are from the men that built this church, were chosen to restore the gospel apparently,  but because Mormons are trying to become Christian, now the past of Mormonism is relevant? That's fuxxxxx bullxxxx and you know it!! Good try though. 

[MiserereNobis]

9 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

To any catholics or Christians reading this, this is what Mormons truly think about you. This is what I grew up believing and this is what the members of this board grew up believing.

 

That's not what LDS think of me.

Are you really so dense that you think a few quotes from the 1800s describe what my LDS friends think of me? Are you so lacking in critical thinking skills? Or just thinking skills in general?

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am with you! Well said!

Hey, look at us not fighting over the claims of exclusivity!  

[Navidad]

25 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

I knew that was coming🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. That's bullshxx and you know it!! Joseph, Brigham and every other prophet taught the Christian denominations on earth are all of the devil. Brigham taught they were taken over by paganism!!!! Don't try to bullshxx me just so you can save face infront of the non Mormons on the board.

I am still confused because I cannot figure out to whom you are writing? It seems like the LDS faithful on the forum are not in agreement with your statements. It seems as if the Non-LDS on the board aren't bothered by your statements, whether true or not. So are you simply talking to yourself? Whatever you are trying to accomplish, it doesn't seem to be working.

[InCognitus]

23 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

I knew that was coming🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

Ah, you admit to lies and deception (if you knew the difference and knew this was coming, but you said it anyway).  There is a difference between "the gospel" being taken from the earth (what you said) and "the fulness of the gospel" being taken from the earth.

24 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

Joseph, Brigham and every other prophet taught the Christian denominations on earth are all of the devil.

Now you're changing the subject.

Do you also realize that Joseph Smith taught: 

• "Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true "Mormons." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843–44, p.316)

And Brigham Young taught:

Quote

It was the occupation of Jesus Christ and his Apostles to propagate the Gospel of salvation and the principles of eternal life to the world, and it is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error.  Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their elder brother, being at their head,) to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, to mechanism of every kind, to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, and bring it to Zion.

The people upon this earth have a great many errors, and they have also a great many truths.  This statement is not only true of the nations termed civilized--those who profess to worship the true God, but is equally applicable to pagans of all countries, for in their religious rights and ceremonies may be found a great many truths which we will also gather home to Zion.  All truth is for the salvation of the children of men--for their benefit and learning--for their furtherance in the principles of divine knowledge; and divine knowledge is any matter of fact--truth; and all truth pertains to divinity.  (Journal of Discourses, Vol.7, p.283-284, Brigham Young, October 9, 1859)

How do you square your isolated and out of context quotes from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young with those teachings?

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

Hahaha🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 you're pathetic. I showed everyone how Mormons really feel about Christians by supplying quotes from the men that built this church and you can't or won't defend them, so now you're attacking my grammar. That's typical of a mormon male that can't defend or won't defend the church. 

Someone in the 1800s wrote something down along with other things that don’t match your quotes and it is somehow logical that everyone throughout Church history thinks completely in line with these cherry-picked quotes most members have never read?

You’re not very bright are you? You are not even good at trolling. You’re doing the sad “declare victory” in every post approach that was briefly popular in the early internet wars of the early 2000’s and it was tired and hackneyed then. Get some new material so you can be at least mildly entertaining.

C’mon son! Take some pride in your work!

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

Don't worry!! Nemesis will be along any moment to save your miserable *** and delete all this. Then u can go back to being the Mormon dialoge hero you think you are🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. Until then, I'm the swingin dxxx around here and I'll keep supplying the facts that Mormons won't defend because they're to busy trying to make room inside the tent of Christianity. 

Bummer. You've passed the point of being a good troll to play with. Trolls have to operate within certain limits and once those lines are crossed people disengage. The juvenile vulgarity is just too much. It is amusing that you think copy and pasting some quotes is somehow revealing the dark heart of Mormonism and that this quotes are somehow going to surprise me and open my eyes to what the LDS on this board really think of me.

I mean, I've been here for like 10 years. Don't you think this kinda stuff has already been discussed?

But, I will thank you (kinda) for a thread that wasn't about LGBT+ stuff.

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Truth Teller said:

Don't worry!! Nemesis will be along any moment to save your miserable *** and delete all this. Then u can go back to being the Mormon dialoge hero you think you are🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. Until then, I'm the swingin dxxx around here and I'll keep supplying the facts that Mormons won't defend because they're to busy trying to make room inside the tent of Christianity. 

Are you hitting on me? I am a huge slut but even I have standards. Try a different approach next time if you want to win my affections little guy.