marineland Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 I'm into lesson 14 of the manual (Religion 275). Page 66 - “Are you battling a demon of addiction—tobacco or drugs or gambling, or the pernicious contemporary plague of pornography? Is your marriage in trouble or your child in danger? Are you confused with gender identity or searching for self-esteem?” How does the church help someone suffering with confusion about their gender identity? Page 67 - Jesus Christ has the power to deliver us from our lost and fallen state and from other challenges in mortality. First, the tests at times will stretch us enough for us to feel the need for help beyond our own. And, second, God in His kindness and wisdom has made the power of deliverance available to us”. What types of testing existed in the pre-mortal life where the spirits needed help so they would not sin there? Or did they progress without testing?
Popular Post pogi Posted April 24, 2023 Popular Post Posted April 24, 2023 2 hours ago, marineland said: I'm into lesson 14 of the manual (Religion 275). Page 66 - “Are you battling a demon of addiction—tobacco or drugs or gambling, or the pernicious contemporary plague of pornography? Is your marriage in trouble or your child in danger? Are you confused with gender identity or searching for self-esteem?” How does the church help someone suffering with confusion about their gender identity? Page 67 - Jesus Christ has the power to deliver us from our lost and fallen state and from other challenges in mortality. First, the tests at times will stretch us enough for us to feel the need for help beyond our own. And, second, God in His kindness and wisdom has made the power of deliverance available to us”. It is strange that they grouped gender identity confusion in with those other issues. I am unaware of any assistance that the church offers in resolving gender dysphoria. It almost looks like they are attempting to take the same strategy that they used with gay people in previous generations where they encouraged people to pray the gay away and that the atonement would resolve all of these issues with enough faith. I truly hope that is not happening here too. 5
smac97 Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 3 hours ago, marineland said: I'm into lesson 14 of the manual (Religion 275). Page 66 - “Are you battling a demon of addiction—tobacco or drugs or gambling, or the pernicious contemporary plague of pornography? Is your marriage in trouble or your child in danger? Are you confused with gender identity or searching for self-esteem?” How does the church help someone suffering with confusion about their gender identity? See the Family Proclamation, and FAIR's treatments here and here, and also Genesis 1:27, and Genesis 5:2, and 2 Nephi 26:33, and Abraham 4:27, and Moses 2:27, and Moses 6:9, and Alma 11:44, and D&C 20:18, also section 38.7.7 of the Handbook. Living prophets and apostles. 3 hours ago, marineland said: Page 67 - Jesus Christ has the power to deliver us from our lost and fallen state and from other challenges in mortality. First, the tests at times will stretch us enough for us to feel the need for help beyond our own. And, second, God in His kindness and wisdom has made the power of deliverance available to us”. What types of testing existed in the pre-mortal life where the spirits needed help so they would not sin there? Or did they progress without testing? We have very little revealed light and knowledge on this. Thanks, -Smac
smac97 Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 1 hour ago, pogi said: It is strange that they grouped gender identity confusion in with those other issues. I think it's understandable. It's a fairly common contemporary point of confusion/concern. 1 hour ago, pogi said: I am unaware of any assistance that the church offers in resolving gender dysphoria. This seems to be faulting the Church for something it has not claimed. Gender Dysphoria is a mental health issue, a serious one. See, e.g., here: Quote If we go strictly by attempted suicide rates, then gender dysphoria is far and away the most debilitating mental condition anyone could suffer. Nearly one in four sufferers attempt suicide at some point in their lives, and “almost half (48.3%) reported suicidal ideation.” Those jaw-dropping numbers are unchanged regardless of whether or not a person has undergone transitioning. The Church does not claim to be able to cure (or, using your terminology, "resolve") this mental health issue. What it can do, however, is provide more spiritual and ontological clarity, stability, guidance, healthy support, etc. 1 hour ago, pogi said: It almost looks like they are attempting to take the same strategy that they used with gay people in previous generations where they encouraged people to pray the gay away and that the atonement would resolve all of these issues with enough faith. I truly hope that is not happening here too. I think the Church has learned and progressed quite a bit, and do not see the similarity you suggest. To the contrary, the Church has become more nuanced and thoughtful in its approach to such matters. Thanks, -Smac
InCognitus Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 2 hours ago, pogi said: I am unaware of any assistance that the church offers in resolving gender dysphoria. Transgender: Understanding Yourself I think that applies. 3
smac97 Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 8 minutes ago, InCognitus said: Transgender: Understanding Yourself I think that applies. From the link: Quote What does “transgender” mean? Does God love me? How does the Church define gender? What is the Church’s position on transitioning? Do I belong as a member of the Church? How can I participate in the Church? If I have already transitioned, am I welcome at church? How can I contribute to the Lord’s kingdom? How do I talk with someone about feeling like I am transgender? If I’m faithful enough, will my experience of gender incongruence go away? Does the Savior really understand what I’m going through? Who am I? Are God’s promised blessings available to me? What should I do if I am depressed or anxious or have suicidal thoughts? Nuanced. Thoughtful. Doctrinal. Authoritative. Applicable. Good stuff. Thanks, -Smac 1
pogi Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 56 minutes ago, InCognitus said: Transgender: Understanding Yourself I think that applies. What specifically applies to resolving gender dysphoria in that link?
smac97 Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, pogi said: What specifically applies to resolving gender dysphoria in that link? Where has the Church claimed to be in the business of "resolving" a mental illness like gender dysphoria? Thanks, -Smac Edited April 24, 2023 by smac97 1
pogi Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 1 hour ago, smac97 said: See the Family Proclamation, and FAIR's treatments here and here, and also Genesis 1:27, and Genesis 5:2, and 2 Nephi 26:33, and Abraham 4:27, and Moses 2:27, and Moses 6:9, and Alma 11:44, and D&C 20:18, also section 38.7.7 of the Handbook. Living prophets and apostles. I'm not sure what this is reference to with what I said.
CV75 Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, marineland said: I'm into lesson 14 of the manual (Religion 275). Page 66 - “Are you battling a demon of addiction—tobacco or drugs or gambling, or the pernicious contemporary plague of pornography? Is your marriage in trouble or your child in danger? Are you confused with gender identity or searching for self-esteem?” How does the church help someone suffering with confusion about their gender identity? Page 67 - Jesus Christ has the power to deliver us from our lost and fallen state and from other challenges in mortality. First, the tests at times will stretch us enough for us to feel the need for help beyond our own. And, second, God in His kindness and wisdom has made the power of deliverance available to us”. What types of testing existed in the pre-mortal life where the spirits needed help so they would not sin there? Or did they progress without testing? I don't think this lesson concerns your questions (see below, the bolded questions from the lesson lead to the point): P66: “Are you battling a demon of addiction—tobacco or drugs or gambling, or the pernicious contemporary plague of pornography? Is your marriage in trouble or your child in danger? Are you confused with gender identity or searching for self-esteem? Do you—or someone you love—face disease or depression or death? Whatever other steps you may need to take to resolve these concerns, come first to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Trust in heaven’s promises. In that regard Alma’s testimony is my testimony: ‘I do know,’ he says, ‘that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions’ [Alma 36:3]” (“Broken Things to Mend,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2006, 70). • What did Elder Holland say would help us begin to resolve our concerns and challenges? P67: “I wish to bear witness of God’s power of deliverance. At some point in our lives we will all need that power. Every person living is in the midst of a test. … Two things will be the same for all of us. They are part of the design for mortal life. “First, the tests at times will stretch us enough for us to feel the need for help beyond our own. And, second, God in His kindness and wisdom has made the power of deliverance available to us” (“The Power of Deliverance” [Brigham Young University devotional, Jan. 15, 2008], 1; speeches.byu.edu). • When have you received “help beyond [your] own” during difficulties? But given that you have these questions from studying this chapter, the Church helps by teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and inviting people to come first to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In addition, the doctrines, covenants and ordinances (first baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost) help people with their confusion on any subject. As to your second question, given that the atonement of Jesus Christ was established from before the foundation of the world, and there was a rebellion against it, and this war might be viewed as a test for some, and Jesus did all He could to entice us to join Him and found it necessary to cast down the devil and his angels at the end of it, what type of actions are you describing as sin and progress? Edited April 24, 2023 by CV75 1
InCognitus Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 7 minutes ago, pogi said: What specifically applies to resolving gender dysphoria in that link? I don't believe it is something the church is trying to "resolve", and I think this is made clear in the following item within that link: Quote If I’m faithful enough, will my experience of gender incongruence go away? Experiencing gender incongruence is not a measure of your faithfulness. Many people pray for years and do all they can to be obedient in an effort to reduce the incongruence yet find they still feel conflicts. This is not unusual. The experience varies along a spectrum of intensity for different people and at different times for the same person. The experience may also vary for children, youth, and adults. The intensity and duration of this experience may not be in your control; however, you can choose how to respond. Some people find it helpful to focus on how their experiences help them learn and grow. Aligning our will with God’s will is an important act of faith that brings great blessings now and even greater blessings in the world to come (see Doctrine and Covenants 59:23). I see no attempt here at "resolving" gender dysphoria. I realize your comment was about "resolving" gender dysphoria, so my link doesn't directly address your comment. But it does provide some information on what the church has available for those who have gender dysphoria.
pogi Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: This seems to be faulting the Church for something it has not claimed. I was answering his question. Please stop trying to assume the absolute worst in me. 1 hour ago, smac97 said: The Church does not claim to be able to cure (or, using your terminology, "resolve") this mental health issue. What it can do, however, is provide more spiritual and ontological clarity, stability, guidance, healthy support, etc. Ok. 1 hour ago, smac97 said: I think the Church has learned and progressed quite a bit, and do not see the similarity you suggest. To the contrary, the Church has become more nuanced and thoughtful in its approach to such matters. The fact that they grouped this in with those other issues which they state can be healed through the application of faith and the atonement is what confused me. 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: Where has the Church claimed to be in the business of "resolving gender dysphoria"? I don't think they have (which is what I stated), which is why I am confused. It appears he posted the link in answer to my statement where I stated "I am unaware of any assistance that the church offers in resolving gender dysphoria." Like I said, the association and context with those other treatable issues is what confused me. Edited April 24, 2023 by pogi
pogi Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 17 minutes ago, smac97 said: Where has the Church claimed to be in the business of "resolving" a mental illness like gender dysphoria? Thanks, -Smac Sigh. We don't communicate well. 2
pogi Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, InCognitus said: I don't believe it is something the church is trying to "resolve", and I think this is made clear in the following item within that link: I see no attempt here at "resolving" gender dysphoria. I realize your comment was about "resolving" gender dysphoria, so my link doesn't directly address your comment. But it does provide some information on what the church has available for those who have gender dysphoria. Were you posting that link in support of my comment then? If so, then forgive the misunderstanding.
InCognitus Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 Just now, pogi said: Were you posting that link in support of my comment then? If so, then forgive the misunderstanding. I was merely trying to provide information on what the church has on gender dysphoria (and not really anything other than that).
pogi Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 Just now, InCognitus said: I was merely trying to provide information on what the church has on gender dysphoria (and not really anything other than that). Ok. Well, it appears to support what I was saying. 1
smac97 Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 22 minutes ago, pogi said: Quote Quote I am unaware of any assistance that the church offers in resolving gender dysphoria. This seems to be faulting the Church for something it has not claimed. I was answering his question. The OP's original question was: "How does the church help someone suffering with confusion about their gender identity?" I don't see "help someone suffering with" Gender Dysphoria as being rhetorically equivalent to "assistance ... in resolving gender dysphoria." 22 minutes ago, pogi said: Please stop trying to assume the absolute worst in me. I did not assume anything about you, let alone the "worst." 22 minutes ago, pogi said: Quote The Church does not claim to be able to cure (or, using your terminology, "resolve") this mental health issue. What it can do, however, is provide more spiritual and ontological clarity, stability, guidance, healthy support, etc. Ok. Sounds like we may more or less in agreement on this issue, then. 22 minutes ago, pogi said: Quote I think the Church has learned and progressed quite a bit, and do not see the similarity you suggest. To the contrary, the Church has become more nuanced and thoughtful in its approach to such matters. The fact that they grouped this in with those other issues which they state can be healed through the application of faith and the atonement is what confused me. I don't see the Church claiming that the issues cited "can be healed through the application of faith and the atonement." The excerpt in the OP is from a 2006 article by Elder Holland: Quote Are you battling a demon of addiction—tobacco or drugs or gambling, or the pernicious contemporary plague of pornography? Is your marriage in trouble or your child in danger? Are you confused with gender identity or searching for self-esteem? Do you—or someone you love—face disease or depression or death? Whatever other steps you may need to take to resolve these concerns, come first to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Trust in heaven’s promises. In that regard Alma’s testimony is my testimony: ‘I do know,’ he says, ‘that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions’ [Alma 36:3]” (“Broken Things to Mend,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2006, 70). Elder Holland is "resolv{ing}" concerns as involving "com{ing} first to the gospel of Jesus Christ" along with "{w}hatever other steps you may need to take." 22 minutes ago, pogi said: Quote Where has the Church claimed to be in the business of "resolving gender dysphoria"? I don't think they have (which is what I stated), which is why I am confused. It appears he posted the link in answer to my statement where I stated "I am unaware of any assistance that the church offers in resolving gender dysphoria." Like I said, the association and context with those other treatable issues is what confused me. I see Gender Dysphoria as being a temporal - and therefore temporary and transient - affliction or struggle. And inasmuch as there seems to be a pretty strong "social contagion" aspect to it, I could see why the Church would want to address it. It's part of the societal discourse. I apologize if I gave offense. I did not intend to. Thanks, -Smac 1
smac97 Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 59 minutes ago, pogi said: Quote Quote How does the church help someone suffering with confusion about their gender identity? See the Family Proclamation, and FAIR's treatments here and here, and also Genesis 1:27, and Genesis 5:2, and 2 Nephi 26:33, and Abraham 4:27, and Moses 2:27, and Moses 6:9, and Alma 11:44, and D&C 20:18, also section 38.7.7 of the Handbook. Living prophets and apostles. I'm not sure what this is reference to with what I said. I did not post in response to what you said, but to what Marineland had said/asked. Thanks, -Smac
Calm Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 (edited) From the original talk by Elder Holland: Quote “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.” In this promise, that introductory phrase, “come unto me,” is crucial. It is the key to the peace and rest we seek…. So how does one “come unto Christ” in response to this constant invitation? The scriptures give scores of examples and avenues. You are well acquainted with the most basic ones. The easiest and the earliest comes simply with the desire of our heart, the most basic form of faith that we know. “If ye can no more than desire to believe,” Alma says, exercising just “a particle of faith,” giving even a small place for the promises of God to find a home—that is enough to begin. Just believing, just having a “molecule” of faith—simply hoping for things which are not yet seen in our lives, but which are nevertheless truly there to be bestowed—that simple step, when focused on the Lord Jesus Christ, has ever been and always will be the first principle of His eternal gospel, the first step out of despair. Second, we must change anything we can change that may be part of the problem. In short we must repent, perhaps the most hopeful and encouraging word in the Christian vocabulary. We thank our Father in Heaven we are allowed to change, we thank Jesus we can change, and ultimately we do so only with Their divine assistance. Certainly not everything we struggle with is a result of our actions. Often it is the result of the actions of others or just the mortal events of life. But anything we can change we should change, and we must forgive the rest. In this way our access to the Savior’s Atonement becomes as unimpeded as we, with our imperfections, can make it. He will take it from there... Following these most basic teachings, a splendor of connections to Christ opens up to us in multitudinous ways: prayer and fasting and meditation upon His purposes, savoring the scriptures, giving service to others, “succor[ing] the weak, lift[ing] up the hands which hang down, … strengthen[ing] the feeble knees.” Above all else, loving with “the pure love of Christ,” that gift that “never faileth,” that gift that “beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, [and] endureth all things.” Soon, with that kind of love, we realize our days hold scores of thoroughfares leading to the Master and that every time we reach out, however feebly, for Him, we discover He has been anxiously trying to reach us. So we step, we strive, we seek, and we never yield. My desire today is for all of us—not just those who are “poor in spirit” but all of us—to have more straightforward personal experience with the Savior’s example. Sometimes we seek heaven too obliquely, focusing on programs or history or the experience of others. Those are important but not as important as personal experience, true discipleship, and the strength that comes from experiencing firsthand the majesty of His touch. Are you battling a demon of addiction—tobacco or drugs or gambling, or the pernicious contemporary plague of pornography? Is your marriage in trouble or your child in danger? Are you confused with gender identity or searching for self-esteem? Do you—or someone you love—face disease or depression or death? Whatever other steps you may need to take to resolve these concerns, come first to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Trust in heaven’s promises. In that regard Alma’s testimony is my testimony: “I do know,” he says, “that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions.” This reliance upon the merciful nature of God is at the very center of the gospel Christ taught. I testify that the Savior’s Atonement lifts from us not only the burden of our sins but also the burden of our disappointments and sorrows, our heartaches and our despair. From the beginning, trust in such help was to give us both a reason and a way to improve, an incentive to lay down our burdens and take up our salvation. There can and will be plenty of difficulties in life. Nevertheless, the soul that comes unto Christ, who knows His voice and strives to do as He did, finds a strength, as the hymn says, “beyond [his] own.” The Savior reminds us that He has “graven [us] upon the palms of [His] hands.” Considering the incomprehensible cost of the Crucifixion and Atonement, I promise you He is not going to turn His back on us now. When He says to the poor in spirit, “Come unto me,” He means He knows the way out and He knows the way up. He knows it because He has walked it. He knows the way because He is the way. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2006/05/broken-things-to-mend?lang=eng It comes across to me as more teaching to connect to Christ for the healing of despair itself rather than the removal or resolution of the trials, troubles, and afflictions that might cause us to despair, as in he will support us as we live through these experiences of even dying and death. We are meant to seek his peace for spiritual healing. Edited April 24, 2023 by Calm 2
CV75 Posted April 25, 2023 Posted April 25, 2023 8 hours ago, marineland said: I'm into lesson 14 of the manual (Religion 275). Page 66 - “Are you battling a demon of addiction—tobacco or drugs or gambling, or the pernicious contemporary plague of pornography? Is your marriage in trouble or your child in danger? Are you confused with gender identity or searching for self-esteem?” How does the church help someone suffering with confusion about their gender identity? Page 67 - Jesus Christ has the power to deliver us from our lost and fallen state and from other challenges in mortality. First, the tests at times will stretch us enough for us to feel the need for help beyond our own. And, second, God in His kindness and wisdom has made the power of deliverance available to us”. What types of testing existed in the pre-mortal life where the spirits needed help so they would not sin there? Or did they progress without testing? It seems that all who have posted here agree that the Church helps those suffering with confusion about their gender identity by inviting them to apply the gospel of Jesus Christ. Fewer have posted about testing, sin and progress in the pre-mortal life. Would you provide some context from your own assumptions to help draw more posters into that conversation? For example, in what ways can you envision there was testing/sin/progress, and in what ways there was not?
marineland Posted April 28, 2023 Author Posted April 28, 2023 On 4/24/2023 at 5:07 PM, CV75 said: As to your second question, given that the atonement of Jesus Christ was established from before the foundation of the world, and there was a rebellion against it, and this war might be viewed as a test for some, and Jesus did all He could to entice us to join Him and found it necessary to cast down the devil and his angels at the end of it, what type of actions are you describing as sin and progress? How did Jesus entice us to join him? Types of actions as sins and progress in the pre-mortal? I don't know. I suppose they were either disobedient or obedient to God more than one time in all those years in the pre-existence. I heard they had progressed as far as they could so they had to come to Earth to progress more.
CV75 Posted April 28, 2023 Posted April 28, 2023 1 hour ago, marineland said: How did Jesus entice us to join him? Types of actions as sins and progress in the pre-mortal? I don't know. I suppose they were either disobedient or obedient to God more than one time in all those years in the pre-existence. I heard they had progressed as far as they could so they had to come to Earth to progress more. Excepting the elements of His incarnated history, I think He enticed us to join Him then in much the same way as He does now. I suppose we similarly made rebellious, repentant and righteous choices in relation to the light of Christ, including rebellion and repentance, as we do in this life along the continuum from birth to death. We were less intelligent than He, but that did not separate us from His love, work and glory. 2
Jaydes Posted April 29, 2023 Posted April 29, 2023 It's hard for me to tell if when they say "gender confusion" they mean actually being confused about your gender identity, or if they just mean knowing your gender identity does not correspond with your assigned sex.
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