Simon Southerton

[Hamilton Porter]

Sorry, he's either full of it or he doesn't know what he's talking about.

He claims that during population crashes, such as the one with the Conquistadors, everybody in the population is equally likely to die. 

Perhaps there are no population bottlenecks in plant genetics?

The following is from the Michael Crawford book:

Quote

The Conquest and its sequelae squeezed the entire Amerindian population through a genetic bottleneck. The reduction of Amerindian gene pools from 1/3 to 1/25 of their previous size implies a considerable loss of genetic variability. . . . It is highly unlikely that survivorship was genetically random. . . . Thus, the present gene-frequency distributions of Amerindian populations may be distorted by a combination of effects stemming from genetic bottlenecks and natural selection. . . . This population reduction has forever altered the genetics of the surviving groups, thus complicating any attempts at reconstructing the pre-Columbian genetic structure of most New World groups.

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[2BizE]

Just because science doesn’t match up with your own personal worldview doesn’t mean that the scientist is “full of it”.  

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

Just because science doesn’t match up with your own personal worldview doesn’t mean that the scientist is “full of it”.  

No, it's not the science where he's "full of it", he tries to dictate to us our doctrine, delicately crafts a strawman, and uses the data to knock it down. Is that how you use science?

[LoudmouthMormon]

40 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

he tries to dictate to us our doctrine, delicately crafts a strawman, and uses the data to knock it down. Is that how you use science?

Heh.  In the thousands of interactions with church critics on the subject of DNA, fully half of them are guilty of this.  Half don't understand our truth claims, and the other half are guilty of not understanding the science to start with.  A small portion, perhaps 2% of the folks I've interacted with, will admit DNA science doesn't prove the BoM wrong, but they always, without exception, follow it up with "And it doesn't prove it right either".  And then they spend the rest of their time criticizing the weak claims they've heard where LDS folks say it does.

Edited February 19, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Pyreaux]

51 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Heh.  In the thousands of interactions with church critics on the subject of DNA, fully half of them are guilty of this.  Half don't understand our truth claims, and the other half are guilty of not understanding the science to start with.  A small portion, perhaps 2% of the folks I've interacted with, will admit DNA science doesn't prove the BoM wrong, but they always, without exception, follow it up with "And it doesn't prove it right either".  And then they spend the rest of their time criticizing the weak claims they've heard where LDS folks say it does.

 The evidence of Pre-Columbian Viking and Polynesian contact alone proves DNA can't tell us everything about human migration.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Hamilton Porter]

11 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Just because science doesn’t match up with your own personal worldview doesn’t mean that the scientist is “full of it”.  

 I explained how he's full of it. If you can't engage what I said, then go to another thread.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[Hamilton Porter]

10 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

, it's not the science where he's "full of it",

Actually, he's full of it on the science too.

[sunstoned]

On 2/19/2023 at 1:50 PM, Pyreaux said:

 The evidence of Pre-Columbian Viking and Polynesian contact alone proves DNA can't tell us everything about human migration.

Norse colonization of North America which had the combined population was around 2,000–3,000 cannot even be compared to the supposed population of the BoM peoples with their million men armies.

[Pyreaux]

35 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Norse colonization of North America which had the combined population was around 2,000–3,000 cannot even be compared to the supposed population of the BoM peoples with their million men armies.

And when the BoM people arrived, they were much fewer than the Norse when they arrived. If the Norse had no genetic impact on the natives, how are a boat of BoM people, with unknown genetic markers, suppose to leave any genetic impact? And what are we looking for? Are we assuming the Lehites were genetically different from the natives? You know what happens when you assume?

[Hamilton Porter]

Ugo Perego has an Asian haplotype and he's a multigenerational Italian. This discussion is moot.

[sunstoned]

22 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

And when the BoM people arrived, they were much fewer than the Norse when they arrived. If the Norse had no genetic impact on the natives, how are a boat of BoM people, with unknown genetic markers, suppose to leave any genetic impact? And what are we looking for? Are we assuming the Lehites were genetically different from the natives? You know what happens when you assume?

Well, according to the BoM the land was empty.  They were the only ones.  Moroni and Mormon write on million men armies.  You can extrapolate how much support a army of that size would need.  It is in the neighborhood of the total allied effort in WW2.  That is a huge genetic footprint that would leave a huge impact.  Any yet we had nada.

[JustAnAustralian]

28 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Well, according to the BoM the land was empty

Where does the Book of Mormon say that?

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

Well, according to the BoM the land was empty.  They were the only ones.  Moroni and Mormon write on million men armies.  You can extrapolate how much support a army of that size would need.  It is in the neighborhood of the total allied effort in WW2.  That is a huge genetic footprint that would leave a huge impact.  Any yet we had nada.

Did it? This is what I'm talking about, interpreting the BoM for us. America is certainly a big enough place to get lost in. The BoM narrative only describes a 300-mile radius (it took runners 3-days to traverse the lands between the farthest cities). If the Lehites assumed they inhabited an empty landed they were already sorely wrong, for at that same time Zarahemla was already out there inhabited, not too far away and went undiscovered for a long time. The first Generation of adult male Nephites were numbered around 50 when a stranger named Sherem comes looking for Jacob (who doesn't seem to know Jacob) came having mastered their language (not a native Hebrew speaker?) and rejecting their Hebrew religion. Could be an indigenous inhabitant. Lamanites became the name for all non-Nephites, then the Nephites went extinct. There were 80 million natives when the Spanish arrive, they whittled them down to 20 million. We have no idea what race pre-exile Israelites were, Israel was the crossroads of three Contenants. We have no idea what race Lehi was, Lehi himself thought he was not an Israelite until he read his genealogy in a book. Its more than possible Haplogroups A B C D and X2a2 are Lehi's. The BoM is bizarrely unfalsifiable. Some say miraculously.

[Snodgrassian]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:58 AM, Hamilton Porter said:

Sorry, he's either full of it or he doesn't know what he's talking about.

He claims that during population crashes, such as the one with the Conquistadors, everybody in the population is equally likely to die. 

Perhaps there are no population bottlenecks in plant genetics?

The following is from the Michael Crawford book:

 

He is saying that due to disease, he would expect the fatality rate of the native groups to be equal, what is wrong with that assumption? 

[Snodgrassian]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:37 AM, Hamilton Porter said:

 I explained how he's full of it. If you can't engage what I said, then go to another thread.

where did you explain this? 

[Snodgrassian]

On 2/19/2023 at 3:00 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Heh.  In the thousands of interactions with church critics on the subject of DNA, fully half of them are guilty of this.  Half don't understand our truth claims, and the other half are guilty of not understanding the science to start with.  A small portion, perhaps 2% of the folks I've interacted with, will admit DNA science doesn't prove the BoM wrong, but they always, without exception, follow it up with "And it doesn't prove it right either".  And then they spend the rest of their time criticizing the weak claims they've heard where LDS folks say it does.

How many non-critics actually understand the truth claims? We can't even agree on these boards what the truth claims are, same can be said in priesthood and sunday school. 

How many non-critics are guilty of "not understanding the science to start with?" 

For me, can DNA be use dna be used to prove the BoM? It doesn't appear to. Can that be explained away? yes, but that is a different argument.  

[smac97]

13 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Well, according to the BoM the land was empty.  

CFR, please.  Chapter and verse.

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

CFR, please.  Chapter and verse.

They are promised a land with no sense its range or extent (maybe 300-miles)

“a land which [the Lord has] prepared” 1 Nephi 2:20

“a land of thine inheritance” 2 Nephi 10:10

 “preserved” Ether 2:7

“this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land” 2 Nephi 1:8

Indeed, no Old World nation found it or lived to tell of it to the rest of the Old World, like the Vikings. Or there are other nations in the land itself they were isolated from, but could contact.

Nephites can only keep it by keeping the Lord’s commandments, or “they should be swept off” of it (2 Nephi 1:10-11; Ether 2:8). By what force? Other people. The condensed record simply doesn’t mention other people, unless Lamanites are those other indigenous people. You must asume Lamanite must be descendants of Laman when Jacob says a “Lamanite” is a political designation for all non-Nephites (Jacob 1:13–4; also D&C 10:48). Every native is a Lamanite, but not every Lamanite is a descendant of Laman.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Pyreaux

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, Snodgrassian said:

How many non-critics actually understand the truth claims? 
How many non-critics are guilty of "not understanding the science to start with?" 
For me, can DNA be use dna be used to prove the BoM? It doesn't appear to. Can that be explained away? yes, but that is a different argument.  

Not many, not many, and I agree.   I mean, yes, I've heard a small handful of faith-promoting statements from the occasional person at church about this stuff that I disagree with.  There's plenty of ignorance to go around, and folks who base their testimonies on ignorance will occasionally find themselves blown over like a tree with no roots.

I think my point stands: Lots and lots of church critics have engaged in the silly tactics of Southerton.  "he tries to dictate to us our doctrine, delicately crafts a strawman, and uses the data to knock it down. Is that how you use science?"

[LoudmouthMormon]

28 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

They are promised a land with no sense its range or extent (maybe 300-miles)

“a land which [the Lord has] prepared” 1 Nephi 2:20

“a land of thine inheritance” 2 Nephi 10:10

 “preserved” Ether 2:7

“this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land” 2 Nephi 1:8

This is evidence that the land was empty?  I hardly think so.  Notions that "God has given us this land" fueled westward expansion of the US.  We seem to quickly forget that such notions were held to various extents by lots of Americans, all happily marching to the banner of Manifest Destiny as they warred and treatied and relocated the native population to reservations. No empty land necessary.

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Well, according to the BoM the land was empty.  They were the only ones. 

Guess again.

How does one prove an empty set is empty?

So they flew over every square inch, and didn't see anyone?

What about that family living in a cave?

The idea itself is absurd

Edited February 22, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

This is evidence that the land was empty?  I hardly think so.  Notions that "God has given us this land" fueled westward expansion of the US.  We seem to quickly forget that such notions were held to various extents by lots of Americans, all happily marching to the banner of Manifest Destiny as they warred and treatied and relocated the native population to reservations. No empty land necessary.

Well, I'm sure at least whatever piece of land they lived on was vacant. I just thought I'd try to find a scriptural the basis for the myth that both Contenants were vacant. However, broad the assumption one would have to make, we've made those assumptions ourselves. We all pay a price when we assume too much. We can easily become Southerton.

[Islander]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:54 PM, Pyreaux said:

And when the BoM people arrived, they were much fewer than the Norse when they arrived. If the Norse had no genetic impact on the natives, how are a boat of BoM people, with unknown genetic markers, suppose to leave any genetic impact? And what are we looking for? Are we assuming the Lehites were genetically different from the natives? You know what happens when you assume?

We do know to what hap group they belong to and what markers Semites have. The arguments set forth by the church genetic apologists is "possible" but statistically improbable. Given the fact that there were 6 million Native Americans when the Europeans arrived and, there were sufficient in numbers left for any sampling methodology to find genetic markers. With 3.2 billion base pairs in the human DNA, the theories used to justify the absence of middle eastern DNA in Native Americans is pretty weak. The debate is long and exhausting and people will believe what they want, regardless of the evidence. I suggest that the Y chromosome research by Nathaniel Jeanson is very persuasive in this area. 

[Pyreaux]

13 minutes ago, Islander said:

We do know to what hap group they belong to and what markers Semites have. The arguments set forth by the church genetic apologists is "possible" but statistically improbable. Given the fact that there were 6 million Native Americans when the Europeans arrived and, there were sufficient in numbers left for any sampling methodology to find genetic markers. With 3.2 billion base pairs in the human DNA, the theories used to justify the absence of middle eastern DNA in Native Americans is pretty weak. The debate is long and exhausting and people will believe what they want, regardless of the evidence. I suggest that the Y chromosome research by Nathaniel Jeanson is very persuasive in this area. 

No. We don't know the markers of Israelites from before the Babylonian exile, particularly lost tribes. It's the exact reason there are Black Jewish movements and those who think Jesus was black, because we don't really know. 

[sunstoned]

17 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Where does the Book of Mormon say that?

2 Nephi 1: 5-11

Quote

7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
 

Quote

"The Lord took every precaution to see that nothing might interfere with this posterity of Joseph in working out their God-given destiny and the destiny of America. He provided, and so told Lehi at the very beginning of his settlement, that: . . it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations ; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (2 Nephi 1:8.) The Lord so kept the land for a thousand years after Lehi landed. He so kept it in His wisdom for another thousand years after the Nephites were destroyed, perhaps to give the Lamanitish branch another chance."

- Apostle J. Reuben Clark, "Prophecies, Penalties, and Blessings," Improvement Era, 1940, v. xliii., July 1940. no. 7

And with regards to DNA:

"About twenty-five centuries ago, a hardy group left the comforts of a great city, crossed a desert, braved an ocean, and came to the shores of this, their promised land. There were two large families, those of Lehi and Ishmael, who in not many centuries numbered hundreds of millions of people on these two American continents."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 601

Millions of people and no DNA or other evidence.  The church needs to modify what the BoM is.  It cannot be a real history.