Simon Southerton

[Pyreaux]

5 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

2 Nephi 1: 5-11

Millions of people and no DNA or other evidence.  The church needs to modify what the BoM is.  It cannot be a real history.

Being kept secret from Old World Nations doesn't mean New World people weren't already there. The BoM text is far from a problem, our erroneous assumptions are the problem, easily fixed if you aren't like Southernton, who must insist his dogmatic presumptions are the only way to read it, and it's not.

[JustAnAustralian]

19 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations

Doesn't say anything about the land being empty. The text says the Jaredites were already there (or at least one was left over), so it's pretty clear that other groups had already been already there. No reason why other unmentioned groups couldn't be there already.

 

20 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

There were two large families, those of Lehi and Ishmael

Yes. Two families travelled there. It says nothing about who was there already.

[Teancum]

On 2/20/2023 at 11:54 PM, Pyreaux said:

And when the BoM people arrived, they were much fewer than the Norse when they arrived. If the Norse had no genetic impact on the natives, how are a boat of BoM people, with unknown genetic markers, suppose to leave any genetic impact? And what are we looking for? Are we assuming the Lehites were genetically different from the natives? You know what happens when you assume?

There were no BoM people. They are a fiction.

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Where does the Book of Mormon say that?

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/empty.htm

 

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

CFR, please.  Chapter and verse.

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/empty.htm

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Quote

Well, according to the BoM the land was empty.  

CFR, please.  Chapter and verse.

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/empty.htm

Your link points to 2 Nephi 1.  So we have a chapter.  Now . . . the verses.  Which ones state that "the land was empty?"

Even your link (to MormonThink, no less) hedges its bets: "The Book of Mormon seems to claim that the hemisphere was empty at time of Lehi's arrival..."

Quite a bit of wiggle room in phrases like "seems to claim."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Your link points to 2 Nephi 1.  So we have a chapter.  Now . . . the verses.  Which ones state that "the land was empty?"

Even your link (to MormonThink, no less) hedges its bets: "The Book of Mormon seems to claim that the hemisphere was empty at time of Lehi's arrival..."

Quite a bit of wiggle room in phrases like "seems to claim."

Thanks,

-Smac

What does the verse mean:

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

[OGHoosier]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

What does the verse mean:

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

If you take the Old Testament as a precedent (and the Book of Mormon demands that we take the Old Testament as a precedent via all the Moses and Exodus references), a "land of inheritance" doesn't have to be empty in order to be a land of inheritance. The Israelites' inheritance was occupied, if sparsely, by all accounts. The problem in this verse is not the mere presence of other nations, but rather that "many nations would overrun the land" and make inheritance impossible.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

What does the verse mean:

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

I wonder how prophets seers and revelators  have interpreted this passage? And I wonder if modern interpretations are driven more by a close reading of the text, or out of necessity because the evidence for Asian migration is overwhelming. 

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Your link points to 2 Nephi 1.  So we have a chapter.  Now . . . the verses.  Which ones state that "the land was empty?"

Even your link (to MormonThink, no less) hedges its bets: "The Book of Mormon seems to claim that the hemisphere was empty at time of Lehi's arrival..."

Quite a bit of wiggle room in phrases like "seems to claim."

Thanks,

-Smac

Not to mention that it says essentially that the land was saved for the righteous.

That might include thousands, even taking it literally.

Clearly that included the Polish Jews among the Jaredites.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I wonder how prophets seers and revelators  have interpreted this passage? And I wonder if modern interpretations are driven more by a close reading of the text, or out of necessity because the evidence for Asian migration is overwhelming. 

And clearly Asians cannot be righteous? Is that what you are implying?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

And clearly Asians cannot be righteous? Is that what you are implying?

The ones that settled America before Adam and Eve (and the fall) came into the picture? You tell me. 

[Pyreaux]

29 minutes ago, Teancum said:

There were no BoM people. They are a fiction.

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The ones that settled America before Adam and Eve (and the fall) came into the picture? You tell me. 

There you go. A new theory!

Eden was in Missouri right?

So how did all those Jews get to Egypt in the first place?? 😇

[mfbukowski]

2 Nephi 1:5

""But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.""

[mfbukowski]

55 minutes ago, Teancum said:

There were no BoM people. They are a fiction.

Uh oh.

Proving a negative empirically?

Where's your evidence? 

Good luck!

[Pyreaux]

14 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I wonder how prophets seers and revelators  have interpreted this passage? And I wonder if modern interpretations are driven more by a close reading of the text, or out of necessity because the evidence for Asian migration is overwhelming. 

Irrelevant, why shouldn't a living church evolve and allow modern information to inform our reading of the text? Who is going to flinch if a prophet calls the forbidden fruit an apple? Must we reject the Bible as fiction for mentioning apples, as there were no apples. The Bible never said it... Well, except in Latin; malum means both apple and evil.

[Teancum]

44 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

If you take the Old Testament as a precedent (and the Book of Mormon demands that we take the Old Testament as a precedent via all the Moses and Exodus references), a "land of inheritance" doesn't have to be empty in order to be a land of inheritance. The Israelites' inheritance was occupied, if sparsely, by all accounts. The problem in this verse is not the mere presence of other nations, but rather that "many nations would overrun the land" and make inheritance impossible.

"The Lord took every precaution to see that nothing might interfere with this posterity of Joseph in working out their God-given destiny and the destiny of America. He provided, and so told Lehi at the very beginning of his settlement, that: . . it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations ; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (2 Nephi 1:8.) The Lord so kept the land for a thousand years after Lehi landed. He so kept it in His wisdom for another thousand years after the Nephites were destroyed, perhaps to give the Lamanitish branch another chance."

- Apostle J. Reuben Clark, "Prophecies, Penalties, and Blessings," Improvement Era, 1940, v. xliii., July 1940. no. 7

[OGHoosier]

Just now, Teancum said:

"The Lord took every precaution to see that nothing might interfere with this posterity of Joseph in working out their God-given destiny and the destiny of America. He provided, and so told Lehi at the very beginning of his settlement, that: . . it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations ; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (2 Nephi 1:8.) The Lord so kept the land for a thousand years after Lehi landed. He so kept it in His wisdom for another thousand years after the Nephites were destroyed, perhaps to give the Lamanitish branch another chance."

- Apostle J. Reuben Clark, "Prophecies, Penalties, and Blessings," Improvement Era, 1940, v. xliii., July 1940. no. 7

Therefore, what?

Earlier Church leaders interpreting the BoM as hemispheric is not a problem in my worldview. And in any case, Clark is saying that nobody came to the Americas between Lehi and the conquistadores. Problem?

[Teancum]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Uh oh.

Proving a negative empirically?

Where's your evidence? 

Good luck!

What is your evidence for BoM People?  The burden of proof is on those making the claim. But you know this anyway.

[Teancum]

1 minute ago, OGHoosier said:

Therefore, what?

Earlier Church leaders interpreting the BoM as hemispheric is not a problem in my worldview. And in any case, Clark is saying that nobody came to the Americas between Lehi and the conquistadores. Problem?

Nothing prior leaders said that conflict with things we know now is a problem for most the believers here.  They just move the goal posts constantly.

[OGHoosier]

29 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Nothing prior leaders said that conflict with things we know now is a problem for most the believers here.  They just move the goal posts constantly.

Yeah, I'm not a fundamentalist.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

What does the verse mean:

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

Seems pretty self-evident.  Surely you are familiar with what happened to the Americas after they came to "the knowledge of other nations."  Columbus was not the first to discovery the Americas, but he was the genesis of the Americas coming to "the knowledge of other nations."  Is this even a point in dispute?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Pyreaux]

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

"The Lord took every precaution to see that nothing might interfere with this posterity of Joseph in working out their God-given destiny and the destiny of America. He provided, and so told Lehi at the very beginning of his settlement, that: . . it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations ; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (2 Nephi 1:8.) The Lord so kept the land for a thousand years after Lehi landed. He so kept it in His wisdom for another thousand years after the Nephites were destroyed, perhaps to give the Lamanitish branch another chance."

- Apostle J. Reuben Clark, "Prophecies, Penalties, and Blessings," Improvement Era, 1940, v. xliii., July 1940. no. 7

Irrelevant. What is "The land", a 300-mile plot? Even if "the land" is both Contenants, how does keeping the entire New World secret from Old World nations, which is true, mean "the land" is empty of people that never told whatever former nation they might have come from. If a foreigner discovers your secret land but never returned home, your land is still secret, and there are other people there. So, what on earth do you think you proved? Nothing. 

[Teancum]

3 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Yeah, I'm not a fundamentalist.

Clearly.  But your leaders are.