Church Member in Rochester Going "Sam Young"

[smac97]

Here:

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Rochester Church of Latter-day Saints member speaks out on church's abuse issues

Michael Benjamin said his testimony led local LDS Church leaders to "attempt to silence me from being vocal about the sex abuse case that the local leaders were involved in."

Michael Benjamin on Wednesday, Dec. 7, 2022, in Rochester.  Traci Westcott / Post Bulletin

This is in the "News" section of the website.

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ROCHESTER — Michael Benjamin has been involved with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints most of his life.

Baptized at age 8, he has served in several callings, or leadership assignments, over the years, including branch president, elders quorum president, Sunday school president, ward mission leader, Sunday school teacher, counselor in the bishopric, and stake young men's counselor.

The LDS church has influenced almost every aspect of his life, from how he spent his time, where he could marry, how to raise his children, where he went to college — Brigham Young University — and what foods and drinks he could or could not consume.

"It has helped shape the values I have including service, love, kindness, compassion, hard work, loyalty, honesty, charity, dedication and gratitude," Benjamin wrote in an email to the Post Bulletin. "Ultimately, the LDS Church is at the core of who I am and has made me the person that I am today."

Well, I hope so.

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A two-year proselytizing mission in Guayaquil, Ecuador, was a humbling, challenging, character building experience for him and helped direct him towards his career as a social worker.

In November 2019, LDS church leaders stripped him of his positions within the church after Benjamin began to speak out against various church policies and scandals, including a 2015 church policy that excluded children of same-sex partners from getting baptized, and a rape scandal at the Kasson LDS church branch that concluded with former LDS leader Michael Adam Davis, 38, being sentenced to 30 years in prison. Benjamin's testimony during the trial helped secure a conviction against Davis.

"In my opinion, being released from my assignments was an attempt by my Church leaders to silence me," Benjamin wrote.

I'm curious what "speak out against" means.

On Twitter, for example, he said this on 11/20:

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Michael Benjamin, MSW, LICSW @mbenjamin_msw Nov 20

 

The @Ch_JesusChrist and @HollandJeffreyR have blood on their hands. This is what can happen when violent, homophobic rhetoric is spoken from the pulpit.

 

 

Quote Tweet

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jessie Jensen at Mastodon dot World

 

@jessiejensen

·

Nov 20

If you’re a top leader in a homophobic church and you publicly call for members to use “musket fire” against LGBTQ people and allies, and then a member of your faith goes and guns down a bunch of people in a gay nightclub, are you at all at fault? Asking for @HollandJeffreyR

Show this thread

ip

Michael Benjamin on 12/13 to a pliant reporter: "Ultimately, the LDS Church is at the core of who I am and has made me the person that I am today."

Michael Benjamin on 11/20 on Twitter: "The @Ch_JesusChrist and @HollandJeffreyR have blood on their hands. This is what can happen when violent, homophobic rhetoric is spoken from the pulpit."

Nothing bespeaks affection like blood libel.

Another:

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Michael Benjamin, MSW, LICSW 

@mbenjamin_msw

Nov 3

 

Two years ago today, two local leaders of the @Ch_JesusChrist submitted affidavits to the Dodge County Court in Minnesota to defend a fellow leader, and registered sex offender, per instructions from LDS Church attorneys.

 

 

A few thoughts here:

The affidavit was compulsory.  "I make this declaration in response to a subpoena from Defendant, Michael Davis."

In the linked article above Michael Benjamin is quoted as follows: "I became more vocal in November 2020 when I learned that two local high-ranking church leaders submitted affidavits to the Dodge County Court in defense of Davis. One of these leaders is a prominent doctor at Mayo Clinic. These affidavits contained the same wording as well as, in my opinion, several inaccuracies. I later learned that the affidavits were written by LDS Church attorneys in Utah. In my opinion, this was an attempt by the LDS Church to cover-up the abuse and protect the church's reputation."

Nothing in the foregoing affidavit can be construed as being "in defense of Davis," nor is responding to a lawful subpoena acting "in defense of Davis."

The above affidavit is from Brent Larson, who per this article was the Branch President.  The other affiant was apparently "Rochester Stake President Randall Thomas, who is a medical director at Mayo Clinic."  Both affidavits apparently stated that "Davis was a church leader, but was not in a position of authority over children":

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Davis instructed young men in church 

What Minnesota LDS leaders knew about Davis and his past is unclear.

According to a harassment order taken out before the latest charges, Kasson Church President Brent Larson was concerned about Davis’ relationship with the victim and thought it was “inappropriate.”  

Davis had given the boy a cell phone, cowboy boots, and a key to his home.

Even after the family ordered Davis to stay away from their son, the mother discovered the two of them in Davis’ car in the church parking lot, according to the harassment order.

In sworn affidavits, church leaders say Davis was a church leader, but was not in a position of authority over children.  

The affidavits were signed by Kasson President Larson, and Rochester Stake President Randall Thomas, who is a medical director at Mayo Clinic.  

Former members of the congregation tell the FOX 9 Investigators that’s not true.

A father provided emails from Davis, in which he was instructing young men on lessons from the Book of Mormon.  

The father told the FOX 9 Investigators Davis was also grooming his son to be a victim.

Benjamin, the Rochester LDS member and former leader, said there was no doubt in his mind that the Elders Quorum President is a position of authority in the church. 

Church leaders declined to comment for this story, instead directing us to a previous statement from three years ago.

Stake President Thomas wrote: “abuse of any kind is not tolerated” in the LDS.  That “anyone who abuses a child is rightfully subject to both criminal prosecution” and “formal discipline from the church, including loss of membership.”  

I think Benjamin is being dissembling here.  Yes, EQP is "a position of authority in the Church," but not with any stewardship or responsibility over children.  For pete's sake, we are up to our ears in "presidents" and counselors and such, all of which can be characterizes as "position{s} of authority in the Church."

Also this Tweet:

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Michael Benjamin, MSW, LICSW

@mbenjamin_msw

Oct 27

 

Preach @jenn_next_door ! The @Ch_JesusChrist does not care about protecting children. Instead, in this case, Church leaders defended the offender in court and were going to testify for him at the trial. And the offender is still a member on church membership records!!

And on and on and on.  

Anyway, back to the original article:

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You've been vocal about the abuses within LDS church. What made you start speaking out?

As a clinical social worker, adolescent therapist and former child protection worker, I am passionate about protecting children. On a daily basis, I work with adolescents who have been abused, and I have personally seen the effects of abuse during my 22 years as a therapist.

Observant and faithful Latter-day Saints are also passionate about protecting children.

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I started speaking out when I realized that Davis was a registered sex offender from Utah and, despite this, he was put in a position of authority in our local congregation.

I'm not sure the "despite this" is warranted.  We would first need to figure out whether the local leadership in Utah was aware of Davis and his status.

That said, I think we have the means to do background checks now.  I think it's worth considering.

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This fact raised two concerns:

The LDS Church teaches that church leaders have the "gift of discernment," "inspiration," and "revelation" from God when they make leadership callings. Local church leaders called Michael Adam Davis to be elders quorum president in the Kasson Branch despite Davis being a registered sex offender and having two felony sex abuse convictions in Utah. If these leaders are truly God’s servants (and were called themselves by inspiration), then they should have discerned that Davis was a sex offender before putting him into a leadership position.

This, ladies and gents, is in a "news" item.

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And the LDS Church has policies about annotating a person's membership record when they are convicted of a crime, especially child sex abuse.

Yes, and Benjamin doesn't credit the Church for that policy.  Funny, that.

Moreover, the local leadership has to be aware of the conviction.

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Therefore, either the church leaders in Utah failed to annotate Davis' membership record or the church leaders in Minnesota ignored the annotation.  Either way, the LDS Church and its leaders were negligent and should be held responsible for the abuse that happened.

Or the third option: The leaders were not aware of his convictions.

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I became more vocal in November 2020 when I learned that two local high-ranking church leaders submitted affidavits to the Dodge County Court in defense of Davis. One of these leaders is a prominent doctor at Mayo Clinic. These affidavits contained the same wording as well as, in my opinion, several inaccuracies. I later learned that the affidavits were written by LDS Church attorneys in Utah. In my opinion, this was an attempt by the LDS Church to cover-up the abuse and protect the church's reputation.

Yeah, no.  This is not accurate.

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I have tried to get answers and share my concerns with church leaders: from local leaders to top leaders in Salt Lake City, Utah. My concerns about the church leaders' negligence and involvement in this case have fallen on deaf ears.

Right.  'Cuz only he cares about "the children."  Per his own tweet: "The @Ch_JesusChrist does not care about protecting children."

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In July 2021, when I tried to notify local members about one of the leaders teaching a youth Sunday school class, my church membership account access and privileges were removed without anyone notifying me. Once again, in my opinion, this was an attempt to silence me from being vocal about the sex abuse case that the local leaders were involved in. In February 2022, I filed a civil court case against the local Church leaders in order to regain access to my church membership account. The case was settled in May 2022 with a "joint stipulation of dismissal without prejudice" and I was given access to my church membership account again.

What a guy.  

What a drama king.

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Bottom line, I have been vocal about this case in order to create a safer place for children within the LDS Church. Many consider me speaking out as "anti-Mormon" or "anti-LDS," but I am actually "pro-LDS" and "pro-children" because the church has been my life and I want it to be a safe place for children and youth.

Right.  Who could ever read public statements like "The @Ch_JesusChrist and @HollandJeffreyR have blood on their hands" and "The @Ch_JesusChrist does not care about protecting children" and consider him anything but "pro-LDS."

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Do you think the LDS church has a scandal waiting much like the Catholic Church's abuse scandal?

Yes, definitely. I think the LDS Church will have a "Spotlight" moment very soon just as the Catholic Church did in the early 2000s with the Boston Globe. It is already happening as we have seen with the recent LDS Church sex abuse case in Arizona reported on by Mike Rezendes of the Associated Press. More and more cases of the LDS Church not reporting abuse or covering up abuse are coming out every week.

Time will tell, I suppose.  Personally, I don't think this will happen because the Church has been working very hard to develop resources and procedures for properly addressing allegations of abuse.  Moreover, the Church is situated fairly differently from the Catholic Church, as I have noted previously here:

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"Boots on the ground" local leaders are the ones interacting with the laity and hence the most likely to have opportunities to engage in misconduct.  This is where we substantially differ, in terms of circumstance, with our Catholic and Protestant neighbors.  Having a lay leadership creates some meaningful distinctions:

A) Volunteers, not Remunerated Employees: Local leaders in the Church are volunteers, not employees.  They are not housed or paid by the Church, and therefore are not reliant on the Church to sustain themselves.  And local leaders are not dependent upon the Church for their housing, income, etc., there is no "moving accused {bishops} around pulpits" as we have seen in other denominations.  

B) Asked to Volunteer, Not Self-Appointed: Local leaders, though "volunteers," are not self-appointed, and are instead "called" to leadership positions.  While certainly not foolproof, this does slow down predators from situating themselves into positions where they have better access to victims.

C) Limited Time in Service: Local leaders in the Church typically function in that role for a period of years, as opposed to such a role being an indeterminate or lifelong vocation and lifestyle as in other faiths.  Moreover, local leaders often have "day jobs" and family responsibilities, so they simply do not have the same "face time" opportunities in terms of sheer numbers of hours and years as compared to local leaders in other denominations.

D) Improved Emphasis and Attention: I think the Church has substantially improved its handling of allegations of abuse.  The bishop's hotline, for example, has likely done much to mitigate abuse, detect it earlier, provide for improved response from the Church, etc.

I think the way the local leaders in the Church are situated creates a serious impediment to bad guys who may seek to use clergy positions to find victims.  

Back to the article:

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What type of changes do you think the LDS church needs to make, and has the church been receptive to any changes regarding the abuse of children?

There are five simple changes that the LDS Church can make in order to create a safer place for children within its congregations:

Hoo, boy.  

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1. Complete criminal background checks on all members serving in any leadership or volunteer position. This simple act could have prevented the abuse case in Kasson.

"Complete criminal background checks" for "all members" serving in "any leadership or volunteer position."

The cost of this would be, I think, astronomical.  Perhaps a criminal background check on members with callings where they interact with children/youths would be more feasible.

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2. Follow state-mandated reporter laws.

The Church already does this.

Moreover, there is apparently no empirical evidence that mandatory reporting laws are having any noticeable effect in curbing abuse.  See here.

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Currently, LDS Church leaders (bishops) are not required to call child protection or law enforcement.

There are "judgment call"-type situations, in which I think the Church should consider erring on the side of caution and contacting law enforcement.  I think this is already happening.

There are also instances in which the Clergy/Penitent Privilege can and ought to be preserved.  Calls to circumvent it are, I think, rooted in prejudice against religious groups.  By way of evidence for this: Nobody is calling for doctors or lawyers to have their communication privileges circumscribed.

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Instead, they are instructed to call a special leader abuse hotline, which is answered by LDS Church attorneys.

Yes.  Attorneys who are familiar with the law.

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3. End one-on-one worthiness interviews. Children and youth are regularly interviewed by adult male church leaders in private during which very personal and explicit sexual questions are sometimes asked. These one-on-one interviews lay the foundation for children and youth to be desensitized to being alone with adult males and talking about private matters.

What a load of crapola this has become.  

Bishops are frequently instrumental in detecting and intervening in abuse situations.

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4. Discontinue the special leader abuse hotline. LDS Church leaders should be required to call child protection and/or law enforcement whenever there is suspicion of abuse. We should leave it to these experts to investigate cases of abuse.  It is very likely that the local leaders called this special help line instead of law enforcement as evidenced by LDS Church attorneys getting involved in the Kasson case.

Another load of crapola.

The laws pertaining to Clergy/Penitent Privilege, mandatory reporting, ets., can be quite complex, can change over time, etc.  It makes no sense at all to punish the Church for providing a valuable resource to boots-on-the-ground leaders who need legal guidance.

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5. Provide more training to church leaders. All of the leaders within the LDS Church are volunteer lay people who have other full-time jobs. They receive very minimal training about how to handle abuse cases. The LDS Church has sufficient assets to fully fund training, abuse prevention programs, and victim services among other things.

Ah, the shibboleth of the relentless faultfinder: "More."

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If someone in the LDS church is facing abuse or is being discouraged from speaking out about it, what are some places they can go for help?

Unfortunately, there are no resources or places within the church that someone could go for help. As I have experienced, people are silenced when they try to speak out. If someone is facing abuse, I would recommend contacting law enforcement, child protection, victim services or an attorney. There is also a grassroots organization called Protect Every Child that offers support, advocacy and resources.

Wow.  He just careened across the border into "Patent Falsehood Land" with this one.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JustAnAustralian]

In regards to the court case, the case number is 55-CV-22-1139 and can be accessed via https://publicaccess.courts.state.mn.us/CaseSearch

[carbon dioxide]

"3. End one-on-one worthiness interviews. Children and youth are regularly interviewed by adult male church leaders in private during which very personal and explicit sexual questions are sometimes asked. These one-on-one interviews lay the foundation for children and youth to be desensitized to being alone with adult males and talking about private matters."

Does he propose two on one interviews.  I think the more people involved might make it more difficult for youth.   Perhaps having the cone of silence in bishops office could be used where the bishop and person being interviews is in the cone of silence while another person is outside observing.  If the person being interviewed feels uncomfortable about the questioning, they can push a button and lift the cone of silence so it will not be a one on one interview.

 

 

 

[pondering]

I've personally experienced much of what is described in this article.

Abused kids watching as the congregation all raises their hands in support to sustain their abuser, who is supposedly "called by god".

 

Years of abuse ignored, sushed, hidden.  

 

6.  Addiction recovery support groups need to stop.  Untrained volunteers do more harm than good - make abusers feel they are getting help and handling the problem when they are not.

 

Abuse is not reported by the church, this is true.

 

Abuse hotline are there to protect church, NOT victim, this is true.  

 

There is no discernment.  There is no protection.   The "spirit" is nothing more than herd bonding instincts, nothing more than elevation, is not from God, no different from what all those in cults experience.

Mindsets of polygamous pedophiles live on in the main lds church.  Child abuse is common, with cycles that have continued generation after generation.

 

BITE model, freedomofthought has good resources for those trying to escape.

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, pondering said:

I've personally experienced much of what is described in this article.

Abused kids watching as the congregation all raises their hands in support to sustain their abuser, who is supposedly "called by god".

 

Years of abuse ignored, sushed, hidden.  

That is tragic.  I'm sorry to hear that you have experienced this. 

2 hours ago, pondering said:

6.  Addiction recovery support groups need to stop.  Untrained volunteers do more harm than good - make abusers feel they are getting help and handling the problem when they are not.

Addiction recovery groups are focused on addiction recovery, not abuse.   They don't pretend to be the one and only tool of recovery, but I can tell you from personal experience that they are incredibly helpful. 

2 hours ago, pondering said:

 

 

I love the video you post because it is a perfect example of the following parable:

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There is no discernment.  There is no protection.   The "spirit" is nothing more than herd bonding instincts, nothing more than elevation, is not from God, no different from what all those in cults experience.

Everyone sure that their experience, perspective, and interpretation is the correct one.  All may be partially in the right, but ALL ARE IN THE WRONG.  This doesn't show that there is "no discernment", but that there is limited perspective, that we see through a "glass darkly", and that we should not be closed-minded about what we think we know.  When perspectives expand, so does our interpretations of what we thought we once knew.  That is the process of eternal progression and further enlightenment. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by pogi

[pondering]

50 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is tragic.  I'm sorry to hear that you have experienced this. 

Addiction recovery groups are focused on addiction recovery, not abuse.   They don't pretend to be the one and only tool of recovery, but I can tell you from personal experience that they are incredibly helpful. 

I love the video you post because it is a perfect example of the following parable:

Everyone sure that their experience, perspective, and interpretation is the correct one.  All may be partially in the right, but ALL ARE IN THE WRONG.  This doesn't show that there is "no discernment", but that there is limited perspective, that we see through a "glass darkly", and that we should not be closed-minded about what we think we know.  When perspectives expand, so does our interpretations of what we thought we once knew.  That is the process of eternal progression and further enlightenment. 

 

He was in the addiction recovery group for years.  The group enabled him.

I've never seen an active member admit being wrong about something they felt the so-called spirit for.  I was tbm.  I'm personally experienced with the so-called spirit, and now know it is not from god.  Testimonies born of that sensation lead to false security, and continued abuse.  

 

I now believe women, not men, are the real protectors.

Women provide.  

No one has authority from God over anyone else.

No church is "true".

God doesn't exist.  

It's much better to believe it's just the laws of nature, than to believe, from experience, god doesn't protect children.

 

I guess you have to experience it.  Your mind snapping, the detectives repeating themselves because your mind is literally unable to process it.  Squeezing your arms because there is nothing left inside.  Death.  It's a living death.  Lies, false hope, false security, false authority - better to kill all of it than put children into this hell.

 

[pogi]

4 hours ago, pondering said:

He was in the addiction recovery group for years.  The group enabled him.

How do you know they enabled him?  Addiction recovery groups are about addiction - not abuse.  The Church's 12 step recovery program is anything but enabling from my experience - it is all about accountability and restitution.  So, I would be careful not to generalize here please.  Also, the group is not clergy so anyone in the group can report active abuse to law-enforcement, so it is not likely that anyone would confess active and ongoing abuse to a group of people who could turn them in to the police.   I certainly would have.

4 hours ago, pondering said:

I've never seen an active member admit being wrong about something they felt the so-called spirit for.  I was tbm.  I'm personally experienced with the so-called spirit, and now know it is not from god.  Testimonies born of that sensation lead to false security, and continued abuse.  

Well, let me be the first active member you know to admit that I have been wrong many times in how I interpreted the spirit.  My understanding is ever-evolving.

4 hours ago, pondering said:

I now believe women, not men, are the real protectors.

That is unfortunate that you believe this way.  There are many boys and men who are victims of women.  

4 hours ago, pondering said:

Women provide.  

Not always.

4 hours ago, pondering said:

No one has authority from God over anyone else.

No church is "true".

God doesn't exist.  

4 hours ago, pondering said:

It's much better to believe it's just the laws of nature, than to believe, from experience, god doesn't protect children.

4 hours ago, pondering said:

I guess you have to experience it.  Your mind snapping, the detectives repeating themselves because your mind is literally unable to process it.  Squeezing your arms because there is nothing left inside.  Death.  It's a living death.  Lies, false hope, false security, false authority - better to kill all of it than put children into this hell.

Clearly you have been traumatized.  I am truly sorry for that.   I hope that you can find healing.  

Please note however that you experience as a victim is not the only valid one.  Many victims of abuse claim to have found healing through faith in God.  They claim to have found hope, healing, and strength through a perspective of faith - will you try and take that source of strength and healing from them?  That doesn't seem right.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by pogi

[pondering]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

Please note however that you experience as a victim is not the only valid one.  Many victims of abuse claim to have found healing through faith in God.  They claim to have found hope, healing, and strength through a perspective of faith - will you try and take that source of strength and healing from them?  That doesn't seem right.

 

 

The only other victims I know who found "healing" through god are those who allowed the cycle to continue.

 

His mother was a victim.  She allowed the cycle to continue.

His 2nd wife was a victim.  She allowed her children to be abused.  

Victims who stay devoted to god victimize others.

Athiests saved me, that's who I trust.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, pondering said:

Victims who stay devoted to god victimize others.

So all the victims who are telling their stories at this link are victimizers themselves?  I don’t think it is wise to assume their situation is identical to the one you have experienced.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/get-help/abuse/help-for-victims?lang=eng

It is not surprising that you would distrust believers in your situation and trust atheists.  It is reasonable if you assume people are all the same everywhere, but is that your experience in other things?

What protects atheists from being victimizers?  If I were to find a number of abusers who happened to be atheists, would you then see it as more based on the individual or would you assume that all who found healing through atheism will eventually be victimizers themselves?  I would hope it would be the first.

[pondering]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

So all the victims who are telling their stories at this link are victimizers themselves?  I don’t think it is wise to assume their situation is identical to the one you have experienced.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/get-help/abuse/help-for-victims?lang=eng

It is not surprising that you would distrust believers in your situation and trust atheists.  It is reasonable if you assume people are all the same everywhere, but is that your experience in other things?

What protects atheists from being victimizers?  If I were to find a number of abusers who happened to be atheists, would you then see it as more based on the individual or would you assume that all who found healing through atheism will eventually be victimizers themselves?  I would hope it would be the first.

Athiests are not protecting any church as their #1 priority.  Athiests don't believe problems are solved with prayer and temple attendance- they believe problems are solved by going to the police.  Athiests have escaped being brainwashed.

I applaud this site for not xing me yet as my ward and others have.  Perhaps the conversation is productive if anyone here will escape, even a little, from group-think, conformity bias, being a bystander, relying on "spirit" or other futile practices.  

Perhaps a few might start to realize, those offshoot groups?  Who also feel "the spirit", aren't so different from the tree they are connected to.  We're all social herd animals, North Korea to polygamous groups, just herds trying to stay together, nothing more.  Fir children, and females,vsome herds are better than others - but you have to get a job, you have to claim authority for yourself, you have to be self-reliant first.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pondering said:

they believe problems are solved by going to the police. 

Given the low rate of arrests for rape and other sexual assaults, if one only depends on the police, I fear many problems are not going to be solved.

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I applaud this site for not xing me yet as my ward and others have.  Perhaps the conversation is productive if anyone here will escape, even a little, from group-think, conformity bias, being a bystander, relying on "spirit" or other futile practices.  

If you are seriously claiming posters or church members in general are protecting pedophiles when you don’t know them in real life and how they personally respond to abuse situations, do you expect to not be banned eventually?  You have made some very serious accusations, even if it is understandable why you have given your experience.

If I have misunderstood your comments below, could you clarify please?

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The video, and this thread, illustrates the main lists culture around child abuse.  

Sympathy for the abuser over concern for the well being of the victims.

From "get off my property" to "we have to teach an English lesson" the reaction to ignore, avoid, change the subject, protect the pedophile is clearly shown.  

I do not see the culture of pedophile-prorecting victim-ignoring / victim-blaming going away anytime soon as the lds church still embraces 132.  Still has a prophet with multiple wives.  Still has mindset that heaven = polygamy.   

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

The apples do not fall far from the tree.  It takes a village to abuse children.  Founded on pedophiles, the fruits of pedophiles.  

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Calm

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, pondering said:

Athiests are not protecting any church as their #1 priority.  Athiests don't believe problems are solved with prayer and temple attendance- they believe problems are solved by going to the police.  Athiests have escaped being brainwashed.

If they think law enforcement is skilled at detecting, arresting, and prosecuting cases of abuse they have just been brainwashed by propaganda.

[bsjkki]

There have been a lot of wicked men called to positions in the church. It is very difficult to not lose some trust when confronted first hand with this. I do not believe God inspires our leaders to call wicked men to these positions but rather it is the failings of men. 
 

 

[Kenngo1969]

For what little this may be worth coming from me (since, "Hallelujah and praise the Lord!" I will never be called to one of these positions [and probably wouldn't even if that whole "husband-of-one-wife" thingy weren't such a hang-up]), I think one of the reasons the Lord allows His fallible servants to extend certain callings to men who are not worthy is to give those men an opportunity to "come clean."  If they don't take that opportunity, that failure cannot, I do not think, be laid at the feet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or at the feet of the person who extended (or who approved) the call.  

That said, there have been times in my life when I have looked upon certain callings being extended to me as a sign of the Lord's favor.  I hope I haven't been wrong.    (Curiously, although this instance has not involved a calling being extended to me, the most recent instance I've had in which I've felt at least a faint ray of hope that the Lord sees me as something more than completely useless is a blessing I received recently under the hands of my Ministering Brother.)  Please believe me when I say, also, however, that I'm much, much more prone to wield the whip of self-flagellation with all the fervor of an ascetic and of a flagellant than I am to give myself the benefit of any deserved or needed doubt.

Crrrrrrrrrack!!!!!  Owwww!  Hurts so good!!!!!    

Edited December 18, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[gav]

6 hours ago, pondering said:

Athiests saved me, that's who I trust.

Not to trivialise the topic, but can we put that on a coin?

[gav]

5 hours ago, pondering said:

Perhaps a few might start to realize, those offshoot groups?  Who also feel "the spirit", aren't so different from the tree they are connected to.  We're all social herd animals, North Korea to polygamous groups, just herds trying to stay together, nothing more.  Fir children, and females,vsome herds are better than others - but you have to get a job, you have to claim authority for yourself, you have to be self-reliant first.

I'm curious, in your new world view, how does a spirit derived of social herding give specific and clear instructions to an individual one-on-one?

[pogi]

20 hours ago, pondering said:

The only other victims I know who found "healing" through god are those who allowed the cycle to continue.

 

His mother was a victim.  She allowed the cycle to continue.

His 2nd wife was a victim.  She allowed her children to be abused.  

Victims who stay devoted to god victimize others.

Athiests saved me, that's who I trust.

Your perspective and life-experience is your own, but I hope that you can accept that it is not representative of the enormous diversity of life experience.  There are SOOO many victims of abuse who have found healing through faith in God.  Because you have not met them, doesn't mean they don't exist in great bounty.  If someone is enabling abuse, then they have not found true healing - they are still stuck in the enabling co-dependency that often accompanies victims of abuse.  

I am glad you found some good atheist people who helped you, but your troubling views of men and religion in general tells me that there is more work to do.  You are associating abuse with those things, when the vast majority of men and religion is not abusive, but is the antithesis of such things.  In other words, you are just as much as a "blindman" as the rest of us.  Might as well add your absolute certain testimony that religion is evil and atheism is good to that video you posted.  You are no different then one of them.   

 As a victim of a religious man or men, it is understandable why you might feel this way.    But, to think that healing can only come through atheism is really extremely dogmatic and blind-man of you.  Welcome to the blindness of life!  You are not better or different then the rest of us.  The safest approach is to relax the extreme dogmatism that we often espouse and palpate around beyond what we currently perceive with openness to the experience of others - which you seem unwilling to consider at this point. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

On 12/17/2022 at 11:45 AM, pondering said:

I now believe women, not men, are the real protectors.

Women provide.  

No one has authority from God over anyone else.

No church is "true".

God doesn't exist.  

It's much better to believe it's just the laws of nature, than to believe, from experience, god doesn't protect children.

Thanks for your testimony!

As I said, might as well add your testimony to the video you provided, you fit in perfectly! 

[pondering]

14 hours ago, gav said:

I'm curious, in your new world view, how does a spirit derived of social herding give specific and clear instructions to an individual one-on-one?

Why don't you ask everyone else who drank the kool-aid... oh wait, you can't ask them, they followed the voice to kill themselves....

[pondering]

36 minutes ago, pogi said:

Thanks for your testimony!

As I said, might as well add your testimony to the video you provided, you fit in perfectly! 

I've changed my beliefs after being given new evidence, and am open to changing my beliefs again.  

How many here have completely changed their beliefs?

Funny, if someone converts to your faith, rhe are praised, if not - apostate.  

Too little time, I know it's Sunday and all, but I'm buried in work - productive work.  

 

Keep up the victim-blaming everyone, your words condemn you more than anything I could say.

 

I'm done here.  You can remove my account.

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by pondering

[pogi]

1 hour ago, pondering said:

I've changed my beliefs after being given new evidence, and am open to changing my beliefs again.  

Me too.

1 hour ago, pondering said:

Funny, if someone converts to your faith, rhe are praised, if not - apostate.  

You seem to be the same way - demeaning those of faith (your secular version of apostate shaming), and praise those who "convert" to atheism.  Black and white dogmatic mindset. 

You  don't seem to appreciate the diversity of perspectives in religion.  If you had any idea of who you are talking to, you might reconsider such broad generalizations.  You are as black and white as the super orthodox conservatives, just on the other end of the spectrum.  You are of the exact same spirit and mindset.  Super polarizing and disrespectful of the experience of others. 

1 hour ago, pondering said:

Keep up the victim-blaming everyone, your words condemn you more than anything I could say.

I don't think you understand what victim-blaming means.  I have never suggested that you brought this on yourself.  No one here has.   

1 hour ago, pondering said:

I'm done here.  You can remove my account.

Best wishes.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, pondering said:

Keep up the victim-blaming everyone, your words condemn you more than anything I could say.

Are you not victim blaming if we are victims of brainwashing?

”I'm done here.  You can remove my account.”

You are an adult, you don’t need anyone to remove your account to leave the board. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Calm

[gav]

7 hours ago, pondering said:

21 hours ago, gav said:

I'm curious, in your new world view, how does a spirit derived of social herding give specific and clear instructions to an individual one-on-one?

Why don't you ask everyone else who drank the kool-aid... oh wait, you can't ask them, they followed the voice to kill themselves....

Mine was a genuine question...

[pondering]

"If it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse one."

 

It took a village to raise hands and sustain him in calling after calling after calling... year after year after year... around 20 years of videotaped abuse.  Some abuse happening in church buildings. He served with kids.  In scouts.  He was 1st councilor on bishopric.   

 

It took a village to sustain his wife through the same time period.  She worked with kids too, brought them home to baby sit.  RS president.

 

It took a village to teach lies.  Lies that the temple protects.  Lies that callings come from god. Lies that prayers and reading scriptures, and church attendance guide and protect.

Many of the kids have eating and cutting disorders.

One kid is now lgbtq

One had surgery, cut off their breasts.

One has been called "autistic", they wear a winter coat in the summer,  stays quiet, and will not stand next to anyone.

This is who everyone raised their hands in front of, made them sing about how great their dad was - not so great when daddy comes home.

No.  Their prayers were not answered.  They lived 0-18 with it.

Prayers are a lie.  The spirit is a lie.  It is all a lie.  Brainwashing is real, easy to recognize brainwashing in others, difficult to see it in yourself.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by pondering
Sp

[pondering]

On 12/18/2022 at 12:59 AM, gav said:

I'm curious, in your new world view, how does a spirit derived of social herding give specific and clear instructions to an individual one-on-one?

I'm sorry, it is triggering to be around those still caught in the lie.

 

I was tbm, have also heard a "voice".  I was thinking in the shower, pondering what direction to go, grad school or not, if I would make it.  A voice in the room said "you'll make it" - scared the #%$*! Out of me, I was naked in the shower  -grabbed a towel, ready to fight.  That one came true.

Another experience,  general conference,  thought it was the talk I was supposed to listen too - turns out the talk was a lie, it was taken down.  

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/23233-auditory-hallucinations

Our minds play tricks on us.  Visual and auditory hallucinations are not uncommon.  To feel the presence of a person (or even animal) you were used to having around after they die,  just memories,  like an old scar acting up.  Our minds see what they remember, get confused.  

 

Google Harvard implicit bias test - we are all programmed, all have deep bias. 

Japan - it took a nuke for them to realize their emporer wasn't half God.

 

It took child abuse to convince me - no one has authority

 

Those in cults - feel "the spirit" hear voices - Mark Twain — 'The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.'

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by pondering