Testimony meeting

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I was thinking I spelled bare right, but you spell it different, either way, I doubt I will be bearing or baring my testimony anytime soon in front of a ward I feel miles apart. I think you spelled it correctly now that I see the "ing" on it. I noticed you put the [sic] for me, so you must be right. I am a poorer speller the older I get. 

Both spellings might be appropriate as baring is exposing, as in baring your soul and bearing is carrying the weight of or being responsible for, similar to bearing witness.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/bare-vs-bear

Typically it is spelled “bear” or “bearing” though.

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Calm

[bsjkki]

41 minutes ago, Ambrosia said:

As I am aware, the stated purpose is to share our personal testimony of whatever God has taught us, and to do that we talk about what we think and feel and have experienced, personally.

If you are aware of some other stated purpose of sharing our testimony, I would like to hear it. 

First Presidency Letter: Testimonies in Fast and Testimony Meeting - Church News and Events (churchofjesuschrist.org)

There is a lot of leeway and subjective interpretation. 

"The following is a message from the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The letter—dated February 14, 2013, and signed by the First Presidency—was also read in sacrament meeting:

“In the past the First Presidency has expressed concern that in some instances, members who desire to bear their testimonies in fast and testimony meeting do not have the opportunity to do so. Bishoprics are again encouraged to help all people learn to express a brief, heartfelt testimony of our Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ, and the truths of the restored gospel so that more members may have the opportunity to participate.

”Parents and teachers should help children learn what a testimony is and when it is appropriate for them to express it. It may be best to have younger children learn to share their testimonies at such times as family home evening or when giving talks in Primary until they are old enough to do so in fast and testimony meeting.

We encourage bishoprics to teach these important principles to priesthood and auxiliary leaders and to all ward members."

Edited December 6, 2022 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

"In fast and testimony meetings, our Church leaders invite us to “bear brief, heartfelt testimonies and to relate faith-promoting experiences.”⁵ When guided by the Holy Ghost, we will refrain from sharing lengthy narratives, unloading personal challenges, giving preachments, making repetitious statements, or saying and doing anything that detracts from the Spirit.

Allowing the Holy Spirit to prompt family members to bear testimony, rather than directly or indirectly pressuring them to do so, contributes to the likelihood that each will have a positive experience and also preserves the spirit of the meeting.

Young children should be encouraged to bear testimony in sacrament meeting only when they feel the Holy Ghost prompts them to do so, and when they can do so on their own. By not directing their expressions, we are conveying the important principle that testimonies are not a recitation of words but an opportunity to express sincere feelings related to the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ." When Children Want to Bear Testimony (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[bsjkki]

Bearing Testimony (churchofjesuschrist.org)

“The testimonies we’d heard from all the other missionaries went something like this: ‘I’m grateful to be in the mission field. I’ve learned a lot from it. I have a fine companion. I’ve learned a lot from him. I’m grateful for my parents. We had an interesting experience last week. We were out knocking on doors and …’ Then the missionary would relate an experience. His conclusion would be something like this: ‘I’m grateful to be in the mission field. I have a testimony of the gospel.’ And he would conclude ‘in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.’

“This young elder was different somehow. Anxious not to spend an extra second on his feet, he said simply, in hurried, frightened words, ‘I know that God lives. I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that we have a prophet of God leading the Church. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.’

“This was a testimony. It was not just an experience nor an expression of gratitude. It was a declaration, a witness!

“Most of the elders had said ‘I have a testimony,’ but they had not declared it. This young elder had, in a very few words, delivered his testimony—direct, basic, and, as it turned out, powerful.

“I then knew what was wrong in the mission. We were telling stories, expressing gratitude, admitting that we had testimonies, but we were not bearing them.”²

^...

 

Sometimes we can learn much about a principle by identifying what it is not. I have found that a testimony is:

• Not an exhortation. Individuals who stand and exhort others in a fast and testimony meeting or even try to call others to repentance, even with the best of intentions, are usurping authority and are often offending others and disrupting the spirit of the meeting.

• Not an experience, although experiences may illustrate belief and conviction.

• Not an expression of gratitude or love, although these are often appropriately included in our testimony sharing.

• Not a public confession.

• Not a sermon or a talk on some doctrinal point, although someone may quote a scripture and then testify of it.

• Not a long explanation of how you know but rather what you know.

• Not merely saying the words “I have a testimony.” It is not inappropriate to say this, but hopefully there is an expression following these words about the doctrines, truths, and principles of which you have a testimony.

[bsjkki]

Testimony (churchofjesuschrist.org)

"A testimony of the gospel is not a travelogue, a health log, or an expression of love for family members. It is not a sermon. President Kimball taught that the moment we begin preaching to others, our testimony is ended.¹

I can't tell you home many Bishopric 'testimonies' I've listened to that are talks and not testimonies. A good example would go a long way. I've heard a lot of, "As I was pondering what I would talk about today"...and then give a talk on a gospel principal and never bear testimony of that principle. Maybe, it turns into a mini-talk because they know they will be conducting and sharing. 

[bsjkki]

20 minutes ago, Ambrosia said:

I agree with the gist of what I think you are saying, but I don't think a testimony is or should be limited to some form of saying:  "I know ___________" and "I know ___________", only expressing short statements.

Suppose a witness is called to the stand in a court room and asked to testify of what he knows based on what he has experienced.  Whatever he said would be his testimony of what he was talking about. 

You gave an example of a testimony which was very succinct on the points he was expressing.  Can you offer an example of a more elaborate testimony which shares more ideas than from a hurried, frightened young man?

Apostle Testimony Montage (churchofjesuschrist.org)

Oaks

"I close with my testimony. I know that we have a Heavenly Father, whose plan brings us to earth and provides the conditions and destiny of our eternal journey. I know that we have a Savior, Jesus Christ, whose teachings define the plan and whose Atonement gives the assurance of immortality and the opportunity for eternal life. I know that the Father and the Son appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith to restore the fulness of the gospel in these latter days. And I know that we are led today by a prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, who holds the keys to authorize priesthood holders to perform the ordinances prescribed for our progress toward eternal life. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

Stevenson

 

"My Testimony

I testify that we have a loving Heavenly Father, and we are His children. I have faith in and a testimony of Jesus Christ and of His role as our Savior and Redeemer. I bear witness of the Restoration of the gospel; Joseph Smith is the prophet who stands at the head of this dispensation, and the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I bear testimony that we are the re-established, original Christian church. I bear testimony that the Church is led by a living prophet, who receives revelation for our day."

Edited December 6, 2022 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

More byElder Stevenson:

"Following Christ’s death, Peter stood and testified:

“Be it known unto you all … that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, … doth this man stand here before you. …

“… For there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”¹⁵

Amulek, following Alma’s sermon on faith, stated powerfully: “I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, … and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.”¹⁶

Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, upon witnessing a glorious vision of the resurrected Savior, testified:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father.”¹⁷

Brothers and sisters, I invite you to seek opportunities to bear your testimony in word and in deed. Such an opportunity came to me recently, at the end of a meeting with the mayor of a capital city in South America, in his chambers with a number of his cabinet officials. As we concluded with very cordial feelings, I hesitantly thought I should share my testimony. Following the prompting, I offered a witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and the Savior of the world. Everything changed at that moment. The Spirit in the room was undeniable. It seemed everyone was touched. “The Comforter … beareth record of the Father and of the Son.”¹⁸ I am so grateful I summoned the courage to bear my testimony."

 

[bsjkki]

From Ballard:

Like almost everything else in life, testimonies grow and
develop through experience and service. We often hear some
members, and especially children, bear their testimonies, listing
things for which they are thankful: their love of family, the
Church, their teachers, their friends. For them, the gospel is
something that they are grateful for because it makes them feel
happy and secure. This is a good beginning, but testimonies need
to be much more. They need to be anchored very early to the first
principles of the gospel....
My experience throughout the Church leads me to worry that
too many of our members’ testimonies linger on “I am thankful”
and “I love,” and too few are able to say with humble but sincere
clarity, “I know.” As a result, our meetings sometimes lack the
testimony-rich, spiritual underpinnings that stir the soul and
have meaningful, positive impact on the lives of all those who
hear them.
Our testimony meetings need to me more centered on the
Savior, the doctrines of the gospel, the blessings of the
Restoration, and the teachings of the scriptures. We need to
replace stories, travelogues, and lectures with pure testimonies.
Those who are entrusted to speak and teach in our meetings need
to do so with doctrinal power that will be both heard and felt,
lifting the spirits and edifying our people....

[bsjkki]

Church News 2002

But the preparing of one’s testimony and understanding
exactly what a testimony is and how it is best expressed in a
public gathering such as fast and testimony meeting is something
all can apply and appreciate.
It is not a “thank-you-mony” in which individuals focus on
expressing gratitude to others. It is not a “travelogue-mony” to
alert others where we’ve been and what we’ve seen.
A public testimony is not a time for the preaching of sermons or
lengthy narratives, the unveiling of personal challenges and
sacred experiences nor the collection of repetitious statements.
In short, members should avoid anything that detracts from the
spirit of a worship service.
In the same May 2002 letter, the First Presidency—expressing
concern that some expressions in fast and testimony meeting were
precluding the opportunities for all members desirous to bear
testimony—suggested that we “learn to express a brief, heartfelt
testimony of the Savior, His teachings and the Restoration, so that
more members may have the opportunity to participate.”

[bsjkki]

For anyone who wants to read a long dissertation on the topic by Robert L Millet, this article has a lot of thought-provoking content. There are many opinions on testimonies but I think following the example of the apostles and prophets, is the best way to go here. Bearing Pure Testimony | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Both spellings might be appropriate as baring is exposing, as in baring your soul and bearing is carrying the weight of or being responsible for, similar to bearing witness.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/bare-vs-bear

Typically it is spelled “bear” or “bearing” though.

 

I'm going down hill, I knew the spelling but spelled it that way for some odd reason, maybe it's because I "feel" bare naked when doing it, lol.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I'm going down hill, I knew the spelling but spelled it that way for some odd reason, maybe it's because I "feel" bare naked when doing it, lol.

I actually like the “baring” version better as it is parallel to “baring one’s soul”, but habit will keep me using “bearing”.

[Islander]

On 12/5/2022 at 10:07 AM, bsjkki said:

Is it time for testimony meeting to end? Just a question. So many times it lacks any ‘testimonies’ and seems to be a parade of narcissists preaching on pet topics. It doesn’t seem to matter how often we are taught to share a brief, heartfelt testimony of the Savior, human nature seems to fight against this concept. 

I like the quote that goes something like ‘once you begin preaching, your testimony has ended.’ 

I think different personalities react differently to testimony meeting. Open forums can be highly uncomfortable and I’ve heard some terrible, not in harmony concepts and teachings during testimony meeting. Just recently, I heard in my ward a woman got up and named by name all the recently returning members and told them it was ‘about time they came back.’ 

So, do you find testimony meeting valuable? Is it generally more good than bad? I wish Bishoprics would be better at starting the meeting as good examples but often they seem to also feel they must say something more than a testimony.

I tend to agree. Mostly an opportunity for boasting and self promotion.

[MustardSeed]

18 hours ago, Ambrosia said:

Anytime I share what I know I don't think I am boasting or promoting myself.  I know that compared to God neither you or I are fully mature. Do you think you are boasting and promoting yourself when you share what little you know?

I think you cannot help yourself but to continually be seen.  This is ego needs imo.  Much like those who abuse the opportunity given in an LDS testimony meeting, you are not being considerate of your audience.  A significant part of safety in a group setting is trust, and when members break trust by breaking the rules of testimony meeting or a social media site, a sense of emotional safety tanks and the spirit is harder to access.  

I’m growing weary of this.  I’m willing to be banned for saying so.  

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

Sorry, not interested. 

[MustardSeed]

Just now, Ambrosia said:

At least I was here long enough for you to see me extend an olive branch to you.

Olive branches are weak and dusty when they don’t come with honesty and accountability. 

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, Ambrosia said:

Honestly, I'm still agreeing and would always be continuing to agree to be subject to the rules of this board as long as I ever have the ability to post here.  And I am always accountable for my own actions.

When you are banned from the board, YOU are banned.  Not your name.  You are banned because of you.  Your pretense and further insistence on your innocence further leads me not to trust you.  You can fix this easily but you refuse to see your behavior clearly enough to actually provide what is needed to receive the social connection you long for:  honesty, accountability, and the humility required for both.  I can’t help. Take care, I won’t respond again. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Ambrosia said:

We are a people who believe in repentance, and to me that means when I repent then I am cleansed from past offenses.  I essentially become a new person, no longer the one who offended. A new person, with a new name.

As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.

Try that one with your wife…”I am not using my name online so it’s not me having an affair with that woman, but a new man!”  Or the bishop..,”It’s a different alias, so I am not stalking that woman, it’s a new man.”

What a lame excuse for lying.

A new name does not make you a new person.  It is not a magic spell changing you into a different person.  It is the desire to become new, different, better when one accepts the new name that changes one.  

If a man gets robs a bank, flees and changes his name, goes back and robs another bank, has he robbed only one bank as a new person or two?  Bet when he gets arrested he will be charged with two offenses, not one.
 

Somehow I don’t see God accepting repentance when one intends to sin again vs a true desire to stop sinning. 
 

It is repulsive to see someone using forgiveness as a weapon.  Great finish. Tells me all I need to know about the allegedly new Ahab.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Calm

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is repulsive to see someone using forgiveness as a weapon. 

And to try to make another feel guilty or imply they are sinning for not responding to their "repentance" the way they believe they should.

[Calm]

“Some may regard the quality of character known as honesty to be a most ordinary subject. But I believe it to be the very essence of the gospel. Without honesty, our lives … will degenerate into ugliness and chaos” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “We Believe in Being Honest,” Ensign, Oct. 1990, 2).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/repentance?lang=eng

You need to review the steps of repentance. You missed “sorrow for sin” and “abandonment of sin”.  Instead you are choosing to revel in your sin by intentionally returning to it over and over. 
 

Repentance is not repentance if not sincere.  What was a minor, trivial issue becomes major when self righteous, false justification is piled on. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

If Ahab truly believed his ridiculous justification, he would be upfront and inform the board that he had returned with a new name and not try and hide who he was from the first post of the new man.  By hiding who he is, he shows awareness he is breaking board rules yet again. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Calm

[Arthur Vandelay]

I would be remiss if I did not post a reply to this topic today.  I hadn't planned on posting but as I was doomscrolling my Twitter timeline and occasionally checking in here, the Spirit weighed heavy on my heart and I knew I must add my own witness that what brother bsjkki has written is true. 

One of the most wonderful things about the Church is that is the same everywhere you go.  Our family recently traveled to China to volunteer at a charity that advocates for the rights of invasive species in southern Mongolia. On our return home, we had the chance to vacation a few days at a lovely resort in Pyongyang and attended d a small testimony meeting with the small branch there.  Even then, I could tell that Brother Kim was droning on about a fertilizer shortage at the collective farm.

This experience really reminded me how lucky our family really is. Here we are with a home garden, plenty of fertilizer and lots of compost. We throw our leaves away in the big green bin every other week.  How blessed would Brother Kim feel with the leaves we so freely throw away?  It is so easy to become self-centered and selfish.  To make everything about yourself and to always experience other's suffering as some sort of personal growth project. 

When I was a young man serving in the Provo South mission, one of my favorite companions and I would often knock doors in the East Bay area.  Tracting was one of the most rewarding experiences of my mission.  Not surprisingly, most people we ran into were members, ex-members, or those who had been hit-up so many times they could have taught me the first discussion!! But one day, we did run across a special young man.  Remember that movie Memento? This guy had the same condition as the character in the movie.  He only had the capacity for very short-term memory.  After leaving, this brother would completely have forgotten we had been there within 15-20 minutes.  What a blessing on weeks our teaching numbers were low.  On some days, we could fit in 3 first discussions. 

Let me close by saying I know that testimony meetings have become boring and repetitive travel logs.  They enable narcissistics to indulge their worst tendencies.

Amen

Oh, and I love my mom and dad.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Arthur Vandelay said:

One of the most wonderful things about the Church is that is the same everywhere you go.  Our family recently traveled to China to volunteer at a charity that advocates for the rights of invasive species in southern Mongolia. On our return home, we had the chance to vacation a few days at a lovely resort in Pyongyang and attended d a small testimony meeting with the small branch there.  Even then, I could tell that Brother Kim was droning on about a fertilizer shortage at the collective farm.

LOL

[Islander]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:33 PM, Ambrosia said:

Anytime I share what I know I don't think I am boasting or promoting myself.  I know that compared to God neither you or I are fully mature. Do you think you are boasting and promoting yourself when you share what little you know?

Yes, if the opportunity is used to talk about what happens "in my practice"....or "in my recent trip to...." or the endless recounting of their pioneer history. In sum, nothing to do with our own fallen and broken nature and the grace and mercy of Christ that brought us into His kingdom. How about talking about how He provide us with daily strength and sustains our fragile lives? If it is not that, I don't care, it does nothing for me or anybody else.