The Gold Plates

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, JarMan said:

You might not be shocked to learn there was an early modern manuscript. But the traditional Mormon world would be very schocked.

Spelling error

You meant 'schlocked'

[mfbukowski]

33 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’ll take your word for it. Were you in a room lit by candles of lanterns? How did you get light on the papers? How did you disguise the sound of papers rustling and turning?

Joseph lived near am airport, silly. He just waited until a plane was going over.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, JarMan said:

The manuscript was originally created in Europe sometime around 1635-1645. It was copied at some point and came into Joseph's possession. There's no reason the original writer couldn't have been inspired if you believe in that type of thing.

You might not be shocked to learn there was an early modern manuscript. But the traditional Mormon world would be very schocked.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Moroni#:~:text=According to the 2010 United,among White (89.27%) individuals.

Etymology 3Edit

Borrowed from Italian Moroni.

Proper nounEdit

Moroni (plural Moronis)

1. A surname from Italian.

StatisticsEdit

• According to the 2010 United States Census, Moroni is the 39352^nd most common surname in the United States, belonging to 559 individuals. Moroni is most common among White (89.27%) individuals.

Further readingEdit

• Hanks, Patrick, editor (2003), “Moroni”, in Dictionary of American Family Names, volume 2, New York City: Oxford University Press, →ISBN, page 622.

ReferencesEdit

1. ^ Grant H. Palmer (2014), “Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah, and Moroni”, in John Whitmer Historical Association Journal‎^[1], volume 34, issue 1, archived from the original on 16 July 2016, retrieved 24 May 2017, pages 50–57

Edited October 2, 2022 by mfbukowski

[JarMan]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Moroni#:~:text=According to the 2010 United,among White (89.27%) 

You’re clearly confused. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’ll take your word for it. Were you in a room lit by candles or oil lanterns? How did you get light on the papers? How did you disguise the sound of papers rustling and turning?

John Clark talked to Martin Harris contemporary and reported on his interview in 1842. 
 

“Harris was told that it would arouse the most terrible divine displeasure, if he should attempt to draw near the sacred chest, or look at Smith while engaged in the work of deciphering the mysterious characters. This was Harris’ own account of the matter to me.”

 

Joseph isn’t working with a tough crowd here. Cowdry for his part said he didn’t dare look into the interpreters lest he be struck dead by God. 
 

 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

John Clark talked to Martin Harris contemporary and reported on his interview in 1842. 
 

“Harris was told that it would arouse the most terrible divine displeasure, if he should attempt to draw near the sacred chest, or look at Smith while engaged in the work of deciphering the mysterious characters. This was Harris’ own account of the matter to me.”

 

Joseph isn’t working with a tough crowd here. Cowdry for his part said he didn’t dare look into the interpreters lest he be struck dead by God. 
 

 

 

I’m not understanding your point. This is evidence that Joseph was reading from a manuscript? Both Cowdery and Harris saw the plates and the interpreters. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[webbles]

15 hours ago, JarMan said:

The manuscript was originally created in Europe sometime around 1635-1645. It was copied at some point and came into Joseph's possession. There's no reason the original writer couldn't have been inspired if you believe in that type of thing.

How do you explain Words of Mormon and the text of the small plates?

[webbles]

13 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Easy. I’ve tried it. Have you?

What exactly did you try? Putting a manuscript in the hat and reading it?  Or was it pretending to use the hat and instead reading it from your lap?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

I’m not understanding you4 point. This is evidence that Joseph was reading from a manuscript? Both Cowdery and Harris saw the plates and the interpreters. 

It’s my point of view that Joseph was intentionally deceiving those around him. It’s my point of view that he had years of practice doing this sort of thing. He led people on treasure hunts with gold that somehow melted into the earth. He had scribes that feared the wrath of God if they examined the process too closely. That fear is ideal if you want to hide a manuscript. I personally don’t know if he had a manuscript. I rather think it more likely he had notes to reference, but I don’t know. I also don’t know how Derren Brown (an atheist) was able to heal the sick and curse the unbelieving on his Netflix show. I don’t know how David Copperfield made a UFO appear at the Vegas show I attended. But I am reasonably sure these were tricks. 
 

Joseph’s scribe Martin Harris reported that he was afraid to look at Smith while he was translating. And you wonder how he might be able to turn a page? Did they take breaks? How many pages per day were produced? 

Edited October 2, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 minutes ago, webbles said:

What exactly did you try? Putting a manuscript in the hat and reading it?  Or was it pretending to use the hat and instead reading it from your lap?

I put a notecard in the bottom of a stove pipe hat in a room with no windows and no direct light. As long as you don’t seal the hat with your face, it is easy to read. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

15 minutes ago, webbles said:

How do you explain Words of Mormon and the text of the small plates?

This is why I lean towards notes and a mental outline versus a full manuscript. If he had a manuscript (or the actual plates for that matter) reproducing the original would be the obvious thing to do. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[why me]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Unless they were in on it.

There would need to be a conspiracy plot to dupe the world by writing a book. Not knowing if this book would be successful or not. Do you really think that the Smith family had this plot to deceive the world by writing a book with an elaborate story of gold plates and witnesses? And of course, Emma would be in on it. Sounds fantastic. A much easier way would be just to use charisma  and found a new church without all the props.

Edited October 2, 2022 by why me

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 minutes ago, why me said:

There would need to be a conspiracy plot to dupe the world by writing a book. Not knowing if this book would be successful or not. Do you really think that that the Smith family had this plot to decieve the world by writing a book with an elaborate story of gold plates nd witnesses? And of course, Emma would be in on it. Sounds fantastic. A much easier way would be just to use charisma  and found a new church without all the props.

I assume you believe the Voree plates to be the word of God as well? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints_(Strangite)

[webbles]

27 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I put a notecard in the bottom of a stove pipe hat in a room with no windows and no direct light. As long as you don’t seal the hat with your face, it is easy to read. 

A modern note card?  Wouldn't the size be wrong?  Are you thinking he would write down notes of what he wanted to "translate" that day? How do you change pages in the hat without people realizing you are doing that?

[why me]

19 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I assume you believe the Voree plates to be the word of God as well? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints_(Strangite)

We shouldn't move the goal post. I think that it is very clear from those who were involved in the translation process how it was done.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/01/the-translation-of-the-book-of-mormon-a-marvel-and-a-wonder?lang=eng

I think that hundreds of pages of manuscript would have been hard to carry and move around especially during the translation process. Witnesses did not see any manuscript, just the opposite. And I go back to my original post. Where would Joseph buy the paper and the ink without being noticed? He needed at least a thousand of pieces of paper to do so. Not to mention the rough drafts that would need to be taken care of by burning etc. And the paper that was ruined by mistakes and ink blots. Quite a task to write a book with feathered pens back then. But ti could be done, just look at jane austen.

Edited October 2, 2022 by why me

[webbles]

18 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I assume you believe the Voree plates to be the word of God as well? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints_(Strangite)

The voree plates were taking advantage of the beliefs in the golden plates.  Joseph Smith didn't have the same situation.

[why me]

2 minutes ago, webbles said:

A modern note card?  Wouldn't the size be wrong?  Are you thinking he would write down notes of what he wanted to "translate" that day? How do you change pages in the hat without people realizing you are doing that?

I remember when many people left the church over history. They did not know about the hat process. Of courses, in the 1970s we knew about the hat process. It was widely spoken about. But after a while it was forgotten as time went on. However I always found it rather faith promoting. Hard to write a book with your face in a hat. He could have taken that trick on the road and made a fortune. The man who could write a book with his head in a hat gimmick.

[Tacenda]

41 minutes ago, why me said:

There would need to be a conspiracy plot to dupe the world by writing a book. Not knowing if this book would be successful or not. Do you really think that the Smith family had this plot to deceive the world by writing a book with an elaborate story of gold plates and witnesses? And of course, Emma would be in on it. Sounds fantastic. A much easier way would be just to use charisma  and found a new church without all the props.

I was just answering the post. I don't believe it necessarily..

@why me

Edit: I think the way they could have helped Joseph is if they believed in his mission and believed he could help those surrounding them. There were new religions that were started during the "burned over districts". I think Joseph did struggle to listen to those different preachers at those camp meetings especially the preacher that said Alvin his brother that died before baptism would go to hell.

I think there were reasons that Joseph thought there needed to be a restoration of belief that wouldn't be this black and white. Some of his roots were in Universalism plus his mom also went to the grove to pray and received a "dream vision" about her husband not being religious and she was worried. Joseph Sr. didn't believe in organized religion and received several visions about them not being the right way to go. Joseph Smith Jr. also didn't believe in the sects surrounding him and believed that all he needed was the bible. And then he also had visions, so I believe Joseph's parents were his example along with his grandfather's Universalism. I think so much of Joseph's examples led him to want the changes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Smith

Edited October 2, 2022 by Tacenda

[SteveO]

9 minutes ago, why me said:

We shouldn't move the goal post. I think that it is very clear from those who were involved in the translation process how it was done.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/01/the-translation-of-the-book-of-mormon-a-marvel-and-a-wonder?lang=eng

I think that hundreds of pages of manuscript would have been hard to carry and move around especially during the translation process. Witnesses did not see any manuscript, just the opposite. And I go back to my original post. Where would Joseph buy the paper and the ink without being noticed? He needed at least a thousand of pieces of paper to do so. Not to mention the rough drafts that would need to be taken care of by burning etc. And the paper that was ruined by mistakes and ink blots. Quite a task to write a book with feathered pens back then. But ti could be done, just look at jane austen.

What is it now, 250 pages with uniform size, and spacing?  Houses back then were not big, no respect for the modern concept of “personal space”.  
 

Great, you saw a note card at the bottom of a hat.  What about the next one?  And the next one?  And the next one?  And the next one?  For hours every day.  

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, JarMan said:

 

Nevermind 

Edited October 2, 2022 by mfbukowski

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, why me said:

Where would Joseph buy the paper and the ink without being noticed?

Are you saying the Book of Mormon was produced without paper and ink?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, why me said:

We shouldn't move the goal post. I think that it is very clear from those who were involved in the translation process how it was done.

Indeed. According to Clark, Harris was not allowed to look at Joseph or he would arouse “the most terrible divine displeasure”

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

A modern note card?  Wouldn't the size be wrong?  Are you thinking he would write down notes of what he wanted to "translate" that day? How do you change pages in the hat without people realizing you are doing that?

I don’t know how Joseph did it. Having a crib sheet with key points, names, dates, etc makes sense to me (similar to how many give talks), but I’m not married to the idea. If we believe his mother, he was rehearsing stories from the Book of Mormon to his family for years. 
 

Tiktok continually serves me videos of magic tricks. I couldn’t say how a single one is done (because they are intentionally trying to deceive me), but could offer guesses. 

[JarMan]

2 hours ago, webbles said:

How do you explain Words of Mormon and the text of the small plates?

Can you be more specific about the problem you see? The small plates covered roughly the same time period as the Book of Lehi. The bible does the same type of thing with Chronicles, for example. It seems quite reasonable that an author writing in the biblical tradition would follow similar patterns as the bible. As for the Words of Mormon, the best explanation imo was published last year: https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/that-which-you-have-translated-which-you-have-retained/.

[why me]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

What is it now, 250 pages with uniform size, and spacing?  Houses back then were not big, no respect for the modern concept of “personal space”.  
 

Great, you saw a note card at the bottom of a hat.  What about the next one?  And the next one?  And the next one?  And the next one?  For hours every day.  

I think that you responded to the wrong guy. 🤓