Penalties for not being vaccinated?

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, Rivers said:

It should be pretty clear by now to everybody that the vaccine wasn’t very effective at preventing people from catching and transmitting Covid.  If we judge the vaccine by that standard, it was a failure.  

There's also some talk out there about side effects of some of the vaccines, but I don't think much data or analysis of the data has been released about it.

17 hours ago, Rivers said:

But there’s good evidence that it kept lots of people out of the hospital and the morgue by preparing the immune system to fight Covid.  So if you caught Covid and didn’t end up dead or hospitalized,  you should be grateful.

I'm in a couple of "at risk" groups, being obese and 70 years old. A member of my ward who was both obese and 80 years old caught Covid early and died in the hospital -- before vaccination was available. He's actually the only person in my ward who's died from Covid -- as far as I'm aware, anyway. A few young people of my acquaintance (talking under 30s) caught it in the Alpha phase before vaccination was available, and were quite sick but never needed the hospital.

I have no idea if it was the vaccine that made my experience quite mild (I've had worse flu experiences), or if it was the Omicron variant that I caught -- which is significantly less virulent than Alpha -- or if it is my general immune system which seems very robust (despite everything not going for me, I get sick very seldom). I only seem to catch the flu if I get a flu shot -- sounds weird, but I've only caught the flu twice in the past 20 years, and both times I had had a flu vaccine. I can't blame the flu vaccine, I don't think, but the correlation is interesting.

17 hours ago, Rivers said:

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/06/covid-19-vaccines-saved-estimated-20-million-lives-1-year

I don't know how reliable this is. There were claims that some health authorities were reporting deaths as due to Covid when Covid was merely positively tested and not the primary cause of death. This would naturally skew the results.

Because of how politically charged this pandemic has become, we may be seeing things are not actually there, or not seeing what is there. Depending upon who's in charge or bleating the loudest.

[Stargazer]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:25 AM, Calm said:

What you originally said, implying the Covid vaccines don’t work…

Practically everyone I know who has gotten Covid after vaccination became available, and there's quite a few of them, were fully vaccinated. 

I know that it is said that the various vaccines reduced severity of symptoms even if it didn't/couldn't prevent it. I don't know that that is true, that it reduced the severity of the infection, but I suppose that could be true. I suspect that even if it were not true, or not entirely true, there's sufficient motivation to tweak the data to make it seem so, given the political nonsense that you'd rather not discuss. And I would rather not discuss that, either, to be fair. I just don't trust the government much at all any longer. Let alone the media. Enough said about that, I guess.

[Stargazer]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:25 AM, Calm said:

Which is a different question than whether or not the vaccine works and one I am so not interested in getting into at this point.

But the topic of the thread IS penalties for not being vaccinated, is it not? And penalties are necessarily invoked by the government, which inescapably involves politics.

But you and I need not discuss that aspect of the topic.

[Rivers]

55 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

But the topic of the thread IS penalties for not being vaccinated, is it not? And penalties are necessarily invoked by the government, which inescapably involves politics.

But you and I need not discuss that aspect of the topic.

The penalty for not being vaccinated is the greater likelihood of severe Covid pneumonia.  The communal benefit from the vaccine simply isn’t adequate enough to justify penalizing people for refusing it.  The First Presidency never advocated for that approach either.

I don’t know if the vaccine is doing much good in this age of Omicron,  but Covid took a heavy toll on unvaccinated people during the year since the vaccine was available.

 This chart here seems to affirm what I’ve witnessed working in a hospital taking care of Covid patients.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Rivers

[Stargazer]

49 minutes ago, Rivers said:

The penalty for not being vaccinated is the greater likelihood of severe Covid pneumonia.

Oh fer crying out loud.

The penalty for jumping out of airplane with a parachute is possible pancake. The penalty for jumping out without a parachute is definite pancake.

Is that the kind of penalty the OP intended to discuss? Natural consequences of actions/inactions?

Edited August 11, 2022 by Stargazer

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Oh fer crying out loud.

The penalty for jumping out of airplane with a parachute is possible pancake. The penalty for jumping out without a parachute is definite pancake.

Is that the kind of penalty the OP intended to discuss? Natural consequences of actions/inactions?

Well, since there are no other penalties other than natural ones...I suppose you could make up reasons to complain against the government.  Why not?  Everybody else is doing it.

Seriously though, what else is there to discuss?  The OP was about a bishop in a ward, not the government.   There are no penalties from the church or government. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by pogi

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

Well, since there are no other penalties other than natural ones...I suppose you could make up reasons to complain against the government.  Why not?  Everybody else is doing it.

Nothing to complain about with respect to the government, you think? I'm sure that's the case.

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

Seriously though, what else is there to discuss?  The OP was about a bishop in a ward, not the government.   There are no penalties from the church or government. 

Ah, then I probably am off on a tangent. Mea culpa.

[pogi]

58 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Nothing to complain about with respect to the government, you think? I'm sure that's the case.

There are plenty of reasons to complain about the government, and not all are made up narratives. 

[Chum]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

There are plenty of reasons to complain about the government, and not all are made up narratives. 

The actual, objectively evidenced - and ever growing - surveillance state.

[Rivers]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Oh fer crying out loud.

The penalty for jumping out of airplane with a parachute is possible pancake. The penalty for jumping out without a parachute is definite pancake.

Is that the kind of penalty the OP intended to discuss? Natural consequences of actions/inactions?

Nobody should be penalized for not getting the jab.  Forcing people to do things is Lucifer’s plan.  Case closed.

[ksfisher]

9 hours ago, Rivers said:

Nobody should be penalized for not getting the jab.  Forcing people to do things is Lucifer’s plan.  Case closed.

Polio has been in the news is New York lately among people who are not vaccinated.  I'm sure glad those people aren't following Lucifer's plan.

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, Rivers said:

Nobody should be penalized for not getting the jab.  Forcing people to do things is Lucifer’s plan.  Case closed.

And of course Raingirl downvoted this. I upvoted it as compensation.

 

[Stargazer]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:50 PM, Chum said:

The actual, objectively evidenced - and ever growing - surveillance state.

Evidently former presidents are not immune from the surveillance state.

[Chum]

14 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Evidently former presidents are not immune from the surveillance state.

Good. When they're surveilled the same as the most surveilled parts of the US, it'll be enough.

[Chum]

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Evidently former presidents are not immune from the surveillance state.

I am grateful for the possibility of an ex-pres being prosecuted under the Espionage Act.  It's because a bright light is finally shining on a profoundly problematic law, one that has long been used to deploy gov revenge against good people - for the crime of embarrassing US Gov officials.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Chum

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

I am grateful for the possibility of an ex-pres being prosecuted under the Espionage Act.  It's because a bright light is finally shining on a profoundly problematic law, one that has long been used to deploy gov revenge against good people - for the crime of embarrassing US Gov officials.

How did we go from temple recommend questions to a discussion of whether a person should be held responsible for removing TS/SCI documents from a secure facility and storing them at a golf club (which is a felony)? I thought we weren’t supposed to talk about politics. 

[Chum]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

How did we go from temple recommend questions to a discussion of whether a person should be held responsible for removing TS/SCI documents from a secure facility and storing them at a golf club (which is a felony)? I thought we weren’t supposed to talk about politics. 

I'd have to stretch a bit the defend the first part but for the 2nd part, it isn't political - as in the post isn't centered on any person but on a law and Gov's history of misuse.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

How did we go from temple recommend questions to a discussion of whether a person should be held responsible for removing TS/SCI documents from a secure facility and storing them at a golf club (which is a felony)? I thought we weren’t supposed to talk about politics. 

It's my fault. Me culpa.