Live and die by the law

[Ranch2727]

Wife LDS me Born Again but was LDS. I want to start with our marriage is the best and we have only one issue God.  We both love him so very different and we have very exciting conversations.  I’m not posting this in any way to change her mind but to help understand her. She has been LDS all her life but is not knowledge at all so conversation can be a challenge.  
        I’m trying to understand this… I 100% trust the bible and it’s words/teachings. Matthew 5:17 say’s Jesus he didn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. 
As a Born Again I have freedom in knowing that he did all the work for me on the cross.  It was his gift. Now I know I can do whatever I want but I choose not to because of my trust and love for him. 
Could any LDS explain your thoughts on this?

 

 

 

 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Wife LDS me Born Again but was LDS. I want to start with our marriage is the best and we have only one issue God.  We both love him so very different and we have very exciting conversations.  I’m not posting this in any way to change her mind but to help understand her. She has been LDS all her life but is not knowledge at all so conversation can be a challenge.  
        I’m trying to understand this… I 100% trust the bible and it’s words/teachings. Matthew 5:17 say’s Jesus he didn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. 
As a Born Again I have freedom in knowing that he did all the work for me on the cross.  It was his gift. Now I know I can do whatever I want but I choose not to because of my trust and love for him. 
Could any LDS explain your thoughts on this?

 

 

 

 

So you believe that Jesus saves you in your sins (as in, you can commit any sin and still be saved)?  I'm asking because I'm not sure I understand what you've said correctly; I'm not trying to trap you or set you up.

Also, can I ask, how long were you LDS, and were you active during that time?

Welcome to the board.   

[Ranch2727]

I do believe that if I commit a sin and ask Him for forgiveness that it will be forgiven. LDS 30 years and active. However it really didn’t fill right. Mom and dad great loving parents and raised me in the church. After reading the Bible and comparing it to LDS doctrine I realized that they contradict each other way to much, so I felt if I had to choose it would be the Bible. You can’t offend me but thanks for saying that.

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

I do believe that if I commit a sin and ask Him for forgiveness that it will be forgiven. LDS 30 years and active. However it really didn’t fill right. Mom and dad great loving parents and raised me in the church. After reading the Bible and comparing it to LDS doctrine I realized that they contradict each other way to much, so I felt if I had to choose it would be the Bible. You can’t offend me but thanks for saying that.

Ok, sounds good. Do you believe you have to repent?  Or can you choose not to repent and still be saved?  (Still trying to figure out your beliefs on this). 

[Ranch2727]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Ok, sounds good. Do you believe you have to repent?  Or can you choose not to repent and still be saved?  (Still trying to figure out your beliefs on this). 
One does need to go to God and repent I 100% believe that. See my beautiful wife believes that you need to go to a bishop but I can just go to Jesus.  Can you ask God to forgive you? Or do you think you need to go to the church? I’m only trying to find out why my wife feels she has to talk to the bishop. Again she can’t back things up it’s always a feeling.

I do believe that if I commit a sin and ask Him for forgiveness that it will be forgiven. LDS 30 years and active. However it really didn’t fill right. Mom and dad great loving parents and raised me in the church. After reading the Bible and comparing it to LDS doctrine I realized that they contradict each other way to much, so I felt if I had to choose it would be the Bible. You can’t offend me but thanks for saying that.

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

I do believe that if I commit a sin and ask Him for forgiveness that it will be forgiven. LDS 30 years and active. However it really didn’t fill right. Mom and dad great loving parents and raised me in the church. After reading the Bible and comparing it to LDS doctrine I realized that they contradict each other way to much, so I felt if I had to choose it would be the Bible. You can’t offend me but thanks for saying that.

 

6 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

I do believe that if I commit a sin and ask Him for forgiveness that it will be forgiven. LDS 30 years and active. However it really didn’t fill right. Mom and dad great loving parents and raised me in the church. After reading the Bible and comparing it to LDS doctrine I realized that they contradict each other way to much, so I felt if I had to choose it would be the Bible. You can’t offend me but thanks for saying that.

Are you a bot?

[Ranch2727]

Why would you ask if I’m a bot? That makes no sense, live in Provo, happy valley and close to BYU. Does that appease you?

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

 

Are you a bot?

Something went wonky in his post and his reply to me actually ended up in the message body next to my post. 

[Ranch2727]

Thanks bluebell! Sometimes I don’t have my glasses lol now I understand the question, my apologies.

[bluebell]

16 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

One does need to go to God and repent I 100% believe that. See my beautiful wife believes that you need to go to a bishop but I can just go to Jesus.  Can you ask God to forgive you? Or do you think you need to go to the church? I’m only trying to find out why my wife feels she has to talk to the bishop. Again she can’t back things up it’s always a feeling.

As you know from being an active member for 30 years, we don't believe that we have to go to the bishop to repent of every sin.  Most sins are just between the person and the Lord, and maybe another person who was harmed and needs to be included in the process.  Only very serious sins require a bishop's help. 

The quotes below give a more complete explanation of when and why.

Quote

 

What things do I need to see my bishop about to be forgiven?

The short answer is that you need to confess “serious transgressions” to your bishop. These include (but are not limited to) serious violations of the law of chastity and acts of violence or dishonesty that cause serious harm or damage to others.

The long answer is that if you feel like you should talk to your bishop, do it. While the Lord is the only person who can ultimately forgive your sins, priesthood leaders play an important role in your repentance.

You might think that a bishop is there to deal with you only when you’ve done something seriously wrong, but a bishop is also there to counsel and help you in other matters. So even if you haven’t committed a major transgression, or if you just need someone to talk to, you can go to your bishop. He can help you.

 

Quote

 

Confession is a necessary requirement for complete forgiveness. It is an indication of true “godly sorrow.” It is part of the cleansing process—the starting anew requires a clean page in the diary of our conscience. Confession should be made to the appropriate person who has been wronged by us and to the Lord also. In addition, the nature of our transgression may be serious enough to require confession to a legal priesthood administrator.

“Not every person nor every holder of the priesthood is authorized to receive the transgressor’s sacred confessions of guilt. The Lord has organized an orderly and consistent program. Every member of the Church is answerable to an ecclesiastical authority. (See Mosiah 26:29 and D&C 59:12.) In the ward it is the bishop; in the branch, a president; in the stake or mission, a president; and in the higher Church echelon of authority, the General Authorities, with the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles at the head.” (Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, Bookcraft, 1969, p. 327.)

Those transgressions requiring confession to a bishop are adultery, fornication, other sexual transgressions and deviancies, and sins of a comparable seriousness. President Kimball reminds us that “one must not compromise or equivocate—he must make a full confession.” (Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 170, 189.) Remember, it is complete deliverance from the tortures of a guilt-ridden soul that we seek. The Prophet Alma says he wandered “through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death,” feeling he was being consumed by an everlasting burning. Repentance is not easy. “Godly sorrow” brings one to the depth of humility. This is why the gift of forgiveness is so sweet and draws the transgressor so close to the Savior with a special bond of affection.

 

 

[Ranch2727]

Yes I do understand that you don’t need to go to the bishop for everything, I don’t think you need a bishop at all. I’m trying to understand why my wife feels she needed to go to the bishop.  I don’t care that she did (it was for drinking) her bishop is a great guy and I talk to him when I go to support my wife at church.  I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law and we are no longer are under Old Testament laws. The law was there to lead us to Christ. He paid the price for us that was his gift. Read Gal 3: 23-25 for example.  The new law is love everyone and only have one God. Paul said those who have the law will be judged by the law. Those without the law won’t be judged by the law. 
      My dad was the bishop and his ward loved him because he was a good man. But I think the only role a bishop should have is to listen and help them.  The bishop should not be there to hear one’s  sins big or little.

[bluebell]

46 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Yes I do understand that you don’t need to go to the bishop for everything, I don’t think you need a bishop at all. I’m trying to understand why my wife feels she needed to go to the bishop.  I don’t care that she did (it was for drinking) her bishop is a great guy and I talk to him when I go to support my wife at church.  I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law and we are no longer are under Old Testament laws. The law was there to lead us to Christ. He paid the price for us that was his gift. Read Gal 3: 23-25 for example.  The new law is love everyone and only have one God. Paul said those who have the law will be judged by the law. Those without the law won’t be judged by the law. 
      My dad was the bishop and his ward loved him because he was a good man. But I think the only role a bishop should have is to listen and help them.  The bishop should not be there to hear one’s  sins big or little.

That's fine that you believe that (and I agree with all the scriptures that you quoted).  Your wife and other active members believe differently about the role of bishops.  We believe that sometimes part of helping someone is to help them repent.   

[Ranch2727]

Fare enough, thanks for your insight and have a great day.

[Calm]

nvm

Edited July 17, 2022 by Calm

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Yes I do understand that you don’t need to go to the bishop for everything, I don’t think you need a bishop at all. I’m trying to understand why my wife feels she needed to go to the bishop.  I don’t care that she did (it was for drinking) her bishop is a great guy and I talk to him when I go to support my wife at church.  I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law and we are no longer are under Old Testament laws. The law was there to lead us to Christ. He paid the price for us that was his gift. Read Gal 3: 23-25 for example.  The new law is love everyone and only have one God. Paul said those who have the law will be judged by the law. Those without the law won’t be judged by the law. 
      My dad was the bishop and his ward loved him because he was a good man. But I think the only role a bishop should have is to listen and help them.  The bishop should not be there to hear one’s  sins big or little.

I wouldn’t consider drinking alcohol a “bishop confession” sin but if someone feels it is necessary then whatever.

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I wouldn’t consider drinking alcohol a “bishop confession” sin but if someone feels it is necessary then whatever.

Confession is often a beneficial behaviour as is other communal behaviour where one person listens while the other talks and then provides feedback. Basic therapy method.

In one sense by confessing you are taking responsibility for your behaviour and putting it on another just as we do with Christ and accepting the atonement, but because the person is visible to us, is directly interacting with us, we are less likely to assume their acceptance of our repentance is our wishful thinking.

[Ranch2727]

Yeah I agree, I think because she was teaching Sunday school she felt she should let her bishop know.  Thanks 

[InCognitus]

On 7/16/2022 at 11:06 AM, Ranch2727 said:

After reading the Bible and comparing it to LDS doctrine I realized that they contradict each other way to much, so I felt if I had to choose it would be the Bible.

I've read the Bible several times now, and read it regularly, and I find LDS doctrine to be completely in harmony with the teachings of the Bible.  In fact, I think it's the only church around that can really account for all the things found in the Bible.

12 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

 I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law and we are no longer are under Old Testament laws. The law was there to lead us to Christ. He paid the price for us that was his gift. Read Gal 3: 23-25 for example.  The new law is love everyone and only have one God. Paul said those who have the law will be judged by the law. Those without the law won’t be judged by the law. 

Since you refer to a few verses in Galatians, I assume you've also read it all the way through to the end of Galatians and that you also believe there is a law of Christ.  Do you believe we will be judged by the law of Christ?  If so, do you believe Jesus gave us commandments other than loving God with all our hearts, and loving our neighbor as ourselves?

Edited July 18, 2022 by InCognitus

[Stargazer]

On 7/16/2022 at 6:06 PM, Ranch2727 said:

After reading the Bible and comparing it to LDS doctrine I realized that they contradict each other way to much, so I felt if I had to choose it would be the Bible.

You are a very interesting poster, and just to cover the greetings angle of this: Welcome to the board! I hope you get what you wish out of your participation!

And now, have you made as serious a study of the Book of Mormon as the Bible?

Also, from your posts in other threads it seems like your understanding of the Bible is definitely colored by the common doctrinal teachings of the Protestant denominations. Which denomination do you prefer, and why?

[Ranch2727]

I stepped out of the LDS church about 25 years ago. At the time my dad was the bishop and mom very active in relief society.  I was searching for answers that the church couldn’t provide about their own history, doctrines and practices.  Before I decided to leave and go to a different church I studied the BOM, PGP and D&C.  Took me about 5 years to realize there wasn’t anything for me in the LDS church.  I’m nondenominational but I do from time to time go to my wife’s LDS ward.  It’s hard to sit there when I don’t believe in any of it but I do love my wife.  Thanks for the welcome and it has been a positive experience so far.  

[manol]

On 7/20/2022 at 5:56 AM, Ranch2727 said:

I stepped out of the LDS church about 25 years ago. At the time my dad was the bishop and mom very active in relief society.  I was searching for answers that the church couldn’t provide about their own history, doctrines and practices.  Before I decided to leave and go to a different church I studied the BOM, PGP and D&C.  Took me about 5 years to realize there wasn’t anything for me in the LDS church.  I’m nondenominational but I do from time to time go to my wife’s LDS ward.  It’s hard to sit there when I don’t believe in any of it but I do love my wife.  Thanks for the welcome and it has been a positive experience so far.  

I'm also what could be called "non-denominational", with an LDS background.  I get the impression there may be a few others around here, though of course there is an enormous amount of variation under the "non-denominational" umbrella. 

[Ranch2727]

Incognitus, you say the Bible and the LDS doctrine is in harmony?   The church says it needed to be restored, but I don’t see the LDS doctrine in the Bible at all.

Re-store bring back (a previous right, practice, custom, or situation); reinstate.
 

I know the priesthood is a big one for the church and they hand it out to just about every male in the church. I don’t see that in the Bible. What they use to do in the temple according to the Bible sure is different from what is done today in the LDS temple. So maybe I just don’t understand the word restore. Those are just two of many, can you go into a little of detail about the harmony you see? Thanks 
 

 

[InCognitus]

On 7/22/2022 at 10:20 AM, Ranch2727 said:

Incognitus, you say the Bible and the LDS doctrine is in harmony?   The church says it needed to be restored, but I don’t see the LDS doctrine in the Bible at all.

The teachings that there will be an apostasy (Acts 20:28-31, 2 Thes 2:3) and a restoration (Acts 3:19-21, Eph 1:10, Revelation 14:6) are biblical to begin with. 

What doctrines that are unique to the LDS church do you believe aren’t found in the Bible?

The New Testament doesn’t claim to have documented all the teachings of Christ’s church, by the way.  The gospel was primarily preached verbally, from house to house, (Acts 20:20, Acts 18:28, 2 John 1:12, 3 John 1:14, 1 Thes 2:9, 2 Thes 2:15), and the epistles were written by the apostles to those who had already been taught the gospel verbally and were already members of the church.  So, the reader is expected to already have some understanding of the basic teachings regarding what the apostles were writing about.  Consequently, we shouldn’t expect all these teachings to be outlined in the New Testament in detail, but they may be mentioned from time to time.

On 7/22/2022 at 10:20 AM, Ranch2727 said:

Re-store bring back (a previous right, practice, custom, or situation); reinstate.

The restoration is of Christ’s church, his teachings, and priesthood authority, having the same organization of God appointed leaders (led by the apostles and prophets).  Customs aren’t necessarily included in this kind of restoration.

On 7/22/2022 at 10:20 AM, Ranch2727 said:

I know the priesthood is a big one for the church and they hand it out to just about every male in the church. I don’t see that in the Bible.

Actually, it’s very much like the New Testament church, where the apostles and other appointed leaders ordained elders in every congregation and in every city (see Acts 14:23, Titus 1:5). 

On 7/22/2022 at 10:20 AM, Ranch2727 said:

What they use to do in the temple according to the Bible sure is different from what is done today in the LDS temple. So maybe I just don’t understand the word restore. Those are just two of many, can you go into a little of detail about the harmony you see?

There’s a very good reason for the differences you see if you are comparing it to the temple and the priesthood in the Bible as it functioned under the law of Moses.  And there are other differences between Old Testament and New Testament times in general, because in the old covenant they had rituals like animal sacrifices that looked forward to the atonement of Christ, but in the new covenant Jesus took “away the first, that he may establish the second” through the offering of his body once for all, and the law was only “a shadow of good things to come” (Hebrews 10:1-12).  And it wasn’t until Jesus paved the way for the preaching of the gospel to the dead (1 Peter 3:18-20, 1 Peter 4:6) that ordinances on behalf of the dead could be performed, like baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:29).  So there is good reason that we don’t see some of those things prior to that.

But prior to the law of Moses, there were “priests” and a priesthood among the people that had nothing to do with the Levitical priesthood (Gen 14:18, Exod 2:16, Exod 3:1, Exod 18:10-12, Exod 19:22), and Moses and the LORD were preparing the people to be “a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation” (Exod 19:6), and to go up to the mountain (Sinai), which was the temple (or “Sanctuary”) that the LORD had prepared for himself to dwell (Exod 15:17).  In Exodus 19 and 24, the elders of Israel agreed to keep the LORD’s covenant (Exod 19:5-8, Exod 24:3), cleansed and sanctified themselves (Exod 19:10-11) and prepared to go up to the mountain (the temple at that time) with Moses, and they “saw the God of Israel” (Exod 24:9-11).  This was what God had in mind for all the people, that there would be general access to his presence in the temple.

But all of that changed when the people of Israel broke their covenant by worshiping the golden calf (Exodus 32), and the tabernacle was moved out from their midst and put outside the camp of Israel (Exod 33:7), and the Levite priests became the only priesthood among them. 

However, Isaiah foretells of a time when, in the last days that the Lord’s house would be “established in the top of the mountains” and all nations shall flow into it (Isa 2:2-3) and even the Gentiles would participate in all the blessings of the temple (Isaiah 56:6-8), and that God would work among the Gentiles and “take of them for priests and for Levites” (Isa 66:19-21).  So the old covenant would be changed and there would be a new way of doing things in times to come.

And in the New Testament we see the importance of the temple extended into the Christian era.  The gospel of Luke both begins and ends in the temple (Luke 1:67-75, and Luke 24:52-53), and while in the old covenant there were animal sacrifices, under the new covenant we are to offer ourselves as living sacrifices (Rom 12:1-2), even “spiritual sacrifices” acceptable to God offered up by “an holy priesthood” (1 Peter 2:5).  And among the great promises to those who “overcome”, it is said they shall be made pillars in the temple of God (Rev 3:12).

There's a lot more than what I've included above, but the other stuff would get into specifics of the temple that I won't share here.  But that’s the basic idea of how these things are taught in the Bible. 

[Ranch2727]

Let’s look at New Testament Acts 7:48

And so it was that in order to broaden their myopic perception of God and His redemptive plan for the world, that Stephen explained something that both Solomon and the prophets of old had understood for generations - that the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands; as scripture says: Was it not My hand which made all these things? for the heaven of heavens is God's throne and the earth is His footstool. What sort of house will you build for Me? or what can You make for My resting place?

But this was not what the blind leaders of Israel wanted to hear, and they charged Stephen of speaking against the Law and of seeking to destroy the Jewish Temple. They did not see that the entire history of the nation of Israel had been in opposition to God as they systematically broke His Laws and went against everything He had said - until they were finally dispersed.

The blind leaders of Israel did not realise that the Law had been given to point them to Christ and Stephen rightly accused them of being stiff-necked people, who were uncircumcised in heart and who resisted the Holy Spirit - for they had killed the Lord of glory and refused to be convicted of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Stephen was slowly unfolding God's redemption plan in order to bring them to repentance for the terrible travesty that had recently been carried out.. the execution of their Messiah King - the Lord Jesus Christ.

If the story had ended at this point it would have been a sad state of affairs.. but following in the footsteps of the Master we hear Stephen's gracious prayer of forgiveness being offered up to His God and Saviour - and falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them!' and having said this, Stephen fell asleep.

For 2000 years God has stayed his hand of judgement on a Christ-rejecting sinful world.. and God has been answering that prayer of Stephen - as down through the centuries.. Jew and Gentile alike have been offered the free gift of salvation by grace through faith in Christ and brought into the family of God.

Our God is far to big to be confined into houses made of stone or restricted to the finite imagination of fallen man. Let us seek to broaden our own perception of God and see Him for Who He is - for He is the eternal, infinite, holy God of love, justice and grace - Whose mercy is everlasting and Whose Word stands fast forever and ever - Who set aside His heavenly glory to reside on the earth for a season so that He could freely lay down His own precious life - so that we might live.. by faith in Him.

I understand that you can’t speak about what goes on in your temples made of stone and by man and I would respect that and not ask.  When the Bible speaks of salvation it does not include going to temple. It does not speak of his people needing the priesthood that was held by only a certain bloodline. It does speak of worshiping the ONE and only God, his son and love your neighbor.  God made it pretty simple but men always want to make things difficult.  I am a sinner and I do not deserve what Jesus did for us on the cross. The only thing I can do is trust Him and only Him.  Jesus is my Lord, my Savior, my final priest and prophet.  By Him everything was made on earth, he is from above we are from below. I’m thankful today for my pioneer ancestors and for my LDS up bringing. The church does many good things but the church, prophets and apostles cannot save people.  God bless all of you tonight that search for the answers in your own way.  God bless us today on this Pioneer Day and my God bless all that might read this. In Jesus name Amen!!

[InCognitus]

7 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Our God is far to big to be confined into houses made of stone or restricted to the finite imagination of fallen man. Let us seek to broaden our own perception of God and see Him for Who He is - for He is the eternal, infinite, holy God of love, justice and grace

But as you pointed out, this is exactly what Solomon already knew (i.e. God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands - see 1 Kings 8:26-29, 2 Chr 2:3-6) even though God commanded Solomon to build the temple to begin with and said he would dwell there among the children of Israel (1 Kings 6:11-14).  And Solomon declared the temple to be for God "a place for thy dwelling for ever" (2 Chr 6:1-10).  So obviously Acts 7:48 isn't a New Testament reversal for the need to have a temple, since the same understanding about God and his nature existed in Old Testament times.

The purpose of the temple is not to provide a place for God to dwell, but to create a sacred space that excludes the world and is kept holy.  It is prepared for God's presence, in the same way God prepared Sinai as the place to meet with Moses and the elders of Israel, or in the same way God commanded Moses to build the tabernacle, or later Solomon's temple.  

Why do you believe God commanded Moses and the elders of Israel to go to Sinai?  Why not somewhere else?  Why do you believe God commanded Moses to build the tabernacle?  Why did God command Solomon to build the temple?

37 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

When the Bible speaks of salvation it does not include going to temple.

Going to the temple is not for salvation.  Going to the temple is for exaltation and for the education of God's children, although saving ordinances are performed in the temple (like baptism for the dead - 1 Cor 15:29).  And while the Bible doesn't speak directly about such things (for the reasons I described in my prior post - the people were taught the gospel verbally), it does indicate that the temple is an essential destination for those who "overcome".

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

It does not speak of his people needing the priesthood that was held by only a certain bloodline.

If the Levitical priesthood is only for a certain blood line in the New Covenant, then why does God say he will work among the Gentiles in the last days and “take of them for priests and for Levites” (Isa 66:19-21)?  And the Melchizedek priesthood was not by blood line.

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

The church does many good things but the church, prophets and apostles cannot save people.

Prophets and apostles don't save people, but Jesus did put high importance on receiving the prophets and individuals he sent out.  Jesus even said that to despise one of them is the same as despising him and his Father (that's pretty serious).   Do you believe what Jesus said about "receiving" or "despising" the people that Jesus sends out in Matthew 10:40 (the apostles) and Luke 10:16 (the seventy)?

I respect your right to believe as you choose, but you did ask me, and the Bible and LDS doctrine are in complete harmony.