rodheadlee Posted July 15, 2022 Posted July 15, 2022 On 7/10/2022 at 8:05 AM, Meadowchik said: Are you saying that anyone who is in a position to save someone's life has the moral and legal obligation to do so? Yes, it's the law of the sea. You can go to jail for not rescuing somebody. https://www.thelog.com/ask-the-attorney/rescue-requirements-spelled-out/ 1
Rivers Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 21 hours ago, longview said: If the church issues guidelines for exceptions allowing for abortions in the case of the mother's precarious condition, then the choice must be made for the mother. However I question how can an abortion be done? By dismemberment? By poisoning the unborn in the womb? In my opinion, I think a C-section is the simplest and most expeditious procedure for ending the mother's pregnancy. At the same time, the child can be retrieved and nurtured with the best medical care. I have read cases of the baby as small as the palm of the hand live to become vibrant and viable. It is VERY rare for a mother to require emergency termination of her pregnancy. You cannot trust the propaganda from the abortionist lobby. My wife had two emergency terminations of a pregnancy. They were C-sections.
Calm Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 (edited) A C section is major surgery. If the woman’s health is already at risk, it might be quite dangerous to require her to get one. Not saying it isn’t the best option at other times, but it requires a recovery time of six weeks and the woman may not be able to drive for that time (a problem if she is the sole support or caregiver of children, needing to lift young children up or her job is at risk if she has to take an extended medical leave. There is also the extended hospital stay of 3 or 4 days (assuming all goes well), which can be expensive. If a woman is forced by law to have a C-section, would you expect her to pay for it as well, teddy? Require employers to save her job no matter what complications occur? Pay for the maternity leave? Edited July 16, 2022 by Calm
bsjkki Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calm said: A C section is major surgery. If the woman’s health is already at risk, it might be quite dangerous to require her to get one. Not saying it isn’t the best option at other times, but it requires a recovery time of six weeks and the woman may not be able to drive for that time (a problem if she is the sole support or caregiver of children, needing to lift young children up or her job is at risk if she has to take an extended medical leave. There is also the extended hospital stay of 3 or 4 days (assuming all goes well), which can be expensive. If a woman is forced by law to have a C-section, would you expect her to pay for it as well, teddy? Require employers to save her job no matter what complications occur? Pay for the maternity leave? I should go back and read the thread more. Isn’t it true, after a certain point the baby has to come out by c section or labor and delivery. In an abortion, isn’t the only real difference between it and a live birth, the fact they stop the heart of the baby first? So, I guess I don’t understand why if you have a viable baby and don’t want them, why people wouldn’t allow others to take on the responsibility for that baby after birth instead of killing it. https://www.oldest.org/people/youngest-premature-baby-to-survive/ Premie survival rates. https://www.healthline.com/health/baby/premature-baby-survival-rate Edited July 16, 2022 by bsjkki 2
Rivers Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 5 hours ago, Calm said: If a woman is forced by law to have a C-section, would you expect her to pay for it as well, teddy? Require employers to save her job no matter what complications occur? Pay for the maternity leave? These are good questions pro-life states would need to figure out. I totally understand there all sorts of ramifications that would come with making abortion illegal. Which is why criminalizing abortion isn’t good enough. We would need create a pro-life culture in which we would all work together to take care of both the babies and the women. 1
Meadowchik Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 15 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Yes, it's the law of the sea. You can go to jail for not rescuing somebody. https://www.thelog.com/ask-the-attorney/rescue-requirements-spelled-out/ From the link you provided: "Yes, you must render assistance to a vessel in distress, and you can go to jail for failing to do so. This is yet another area where boaters and landlubbers face a different set of laws. On land, you generally have no duty to assist a person in distress. The law simply requires that if you choose to render assistance, you do so without acting negligently. A licensed physician is subjected to a different standard, and ’Good Samaritan’ laws in most states provide some protection against civil liability for certain people who render assistance, but for the most part, you will incur no liability if you just ignore the incident." 1
Meadowchik Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 6 hours ago, bsjkki said: I should go back and read the thread more. Isn’t it true, after a certain point the baby has to come out by c section or labor and delivery. In an abortion, isn’t the only real difference between it and a live birth, the fact they stop the heart of the baby first? So, I guess I don’t understand why if you have a viable baby and don’t want them, why people wouldn’t allow others to take on the responsibility for that baby after birth instead of killing it. https://www.oldest.org/people/youngest-premature-baby-to-survive/ Premie survival rates. https://www.healthline.com/health/baby/premature-baby-survival-rate First, I think that many who consider late term abortions and who have to deal with the restrictions even before now were because of a nonviable baby. The restrictions inhibited their ability to release their baby from pain and suffering. Second, I'm really skeptical of claims of women at full term wanting to abort a viable pregnancy. Full-term pregnancy is usually after 34-35 weeks but isn't the same as "late term" in the moniker "late-term abortions" which term is typically used sometime after 21 weeks or so. Those additional months between 21 and 40 weeks are of major impact on a woman's body and can impact her in multiple various ways. But, more specific to your question, fetal size varies a great deal between 21 weeks and 40 weeks. In addition, even women at full term deliver stillborn babies vaginally because it is typically still safer than a cesarean. A C-section is still major surgery with much greater risk and requirements for healing. 2
rodheadlee Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 9 hours ago, Meadowchik said: From the link you provided: "Yes, you must render assistance to a vessel in distress, and you can go to jail for failing to do so. This is yet another area where boaters and landlubbers face a different set of laws. On land, you generally have no duty to assist a person in distress. The law simply requires that if you choose to render assistance, you do so without acting negligently. A licensed physician is subjected to a different standard, and ’Good Samaritan’ laws in most states provide some protection against civil liability for certain people who render assistance, but for the most part, you will incur no liability if you just ignore the incident." Yeah I wouldn't want to expose myself to liability helping anybody out.
Meadowchik Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 59 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Yeah I wouldn't want to expose myself to liability helping anybody out. The point being, your anecdote is rather an exceptional one. And we're not talking about what we would personally do to help someone. We're talking about how we would obligate people by law to help someone.
Popular Post SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 16, 2022 Popular Post Posted July 16, 2022 12 hours ago, Rivers said: These are good questions pro-life states would need to figure out. I totally understand there all sorts of ramifications that would come with making abortion illegal. Which is why criminalizing abortion isn’t good enough. We would need create a pro-life culture in which we would all work together to take care of both the babies and the women. With respect we already know the answer to all those questions. Pro life legislatures have had 50 years to implement a prolife culture that encourages people not to have an abortion. They have yet to do anything of the sort. Why would we expect that to change now? 5
Vanguard Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 9 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: With respect we already know the answer to all those questions. Pro life legislatures have had 50 years to implement a prolife culture that encourages people not to have an abortion. They have yet to do anything of the sort. Why would we expect that to change And you won't acknowledge the considerable push back against entities who encourage women to reconsider an abortion? 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 16, 2022 Posted July 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Vanguard said: And you won't acknowledge the considerable push back against entities who encourage women to reconsider an abortion? I’m sorry, but do you really think there is pushback from those entities when it comes to paying pregnancy care? Paying for child care? Mandating paid parental leave? Mandating an employer hold a job open for a pregnant employee on bed rest? There is push back alright but it isn’t from the pro choice crowd. And in the states we are talking about? Like Texas? That passed a bounty hunter system on those that assist in abortion? You are going to blame the other side that holds absolutely no political power? Really? You say that with a straight face? 3
Rivers Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: With respect we already know the answer to all those questions. Pro life legislatures have had 50 years to implement a prolife culture that encourages people not to have an abortion. They have yet to do anything of the sort. Why would we expect that to change now? With the issue being kicked back to states, I would like to hope that more debate and discussion would change more hearts. Or is that hoping for too much? 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 52 minutes ago, Rivers said: With the issue being kicked back to states, I would like to hope that more debate and discussion would change more hearts. Or is that hoping for too much? It seems to me that especially with abortion legal, creating a pro-life culture that supported the care of women likely to choose abortion (and their children) would have been an extremely viable alternative means of minimizing abortion. Can you point to a state that did this? Why would they have any incentive to do more now? From our very own Dan McClellan: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR1jR21T/?k=1 3
Meadowchik Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 9 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: With respect we already know the answer to all those questions. Pro life legislatures have had 50 years to implement a prolife culture that encourages people not to have an abortion. They have yet to do anything of the sort. Why would we expect that to change now? Exactly. The pro-life "solution" has always been simple-minded and forceful. Never realistic and certainly never considering a whole approach. 2
smac97 Posted July 17, 2022 Author Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: With respect we already know the answer to all those questions. Pro life legislatures have had 50 years to implement a prolife culture that encourages people not to have an abortion. I'm curious what you mean here. How can a state legislature "implement a prolife culture?" Thanks, -Smac Edited July 17, 2022 by smac97 1
smac97 Posted July 17, 2022 Author Posted July 17, 2022 7 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Exactly. The pro-life "solution" Would you explain what this "solution" is? 7 hours ago, Meadowchik said: has always been simple-minded and forceful. With respect, I disagree. I think there have been substantial efforts to persuade (some of which efforts, involving "gross out" pictures of aborted babies, I find questionable). 7 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Never realistic and certainly never considering a whole approach. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "a whole approach?" Thanks, -Smac
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: I'm curious what you mean here. How can a state legislature "implement a prolife culture?" Thanks, -Smac https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR1jR21T/?k=1 Start fixing this for a start. See also here: 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 33 minutes ago, smac97 said: I'm curious what you mean here. How can a state legislature "implement a prolife culture?" Thanks, -Smac https://www.texastribune.org/2022/03/21/texas-medicaid-insurance/amp/ “Texas has more uninsured people than any other state, whether you count in raw numbers (about 5.4 million) or in the uninsured percentage of the total population (18.4%). But it’s one of only a dozen states that hasn’t expanded its Medicaid program.” Yay pro life! 3
smac97 Posted July 17, 2022 Author Posted July 17, 2022 20 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: https://www.texastribune.org/2022/03/21/texas-medicaid-insurance/amp/ “Texas has more uninsured people than any other state, whether you count in raw numbers (about 5.4 million) or in the uninsured percentage of the total population (18.4%). But it’s one of only a dozen states that hasn’t expanded its Medicaid program.” Yay pro life! This seems like a substantial non sequitur. I asked about how a state legislature can "implement a prolife culture," and you respond with . . . insurance statistics? Thanks, -Smac
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, smac97 said: This seems like a substantial non sequitur. I asked about how a state legislature can "implement a prolife culture," and you respond with . . . insurance statistics? Thanks, -Smac That you view insurance statistics as irrelevant and a non sequitur tells you everything you need to know about conservative supposedly “pro life” people. How in the world would a mothers ability to pay for pregnancy and delivery and upbringing of a child possibly impact her abortion decision?? 🤔 Edited July 17, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding
smac97 Posted July 17, 2022 Author Posted July 17, 2022 1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Quote This seems like a substantial non sequitur. I asked about how a state legislature can "implement a prolife culture," and you respond with . . . insurance statistics? That you view insurance statistics as irrelevant and a non sequitur tells you everything you need to know about conservative supposedly “pro life” people. That you are repeatedly dodging straightforward questions and resorting to ad hominem is . . . to be expected, I guess. Thanks, -Smac
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, smac97 said: That you are repeatedly dodging straightforward questions and resorting to ad hominem is . . . to be expected, I guess. Thanks, -Smac How in the world would a mothers ability to pay for pregnancy and delivery and upbringing of a child possibly impact her abortion decision?? 🤔 1
smac97 Posted July 17, 2022 Author Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: How in the world would a mothers ability to pay for pregnancy and delivery and upbringing of a child possibly impact her abortion decision?? 🤔 And now sarcasm. You could explain what you mean here. "A mother's ability to pay for pregnancy" relates to state legislative action to "implement a prolife culture" . . . how? Thanks, -Smac Edited July 17, 2022 by smac97 -2
Meadowchik Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 1 minute ago, smac97 said: And now sarcasm. You could explain what you mean here. "A mother's ability to pay for pregnancy" relates to state legislative action to "implement a prolife culture" . . . how? Thanks, -Smac Access to medical care, which the state can provide, can help the mother afford pregnancy. Anything the state does becomes an element of our culture. 2
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