Navidad Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 On 5/8/2022 at 4:55 PM, Saint Bonaventure said: Please share a little (or a lot) in your answer. I probably shouldn't answer because I am not LDS. I would simply say that I have many friends within Catholicism, Orthodox, LDS, and Protestant communities. My best friend in the world is a Jewish convert from Catholicism. In my twenties, my best friend was Muslim. He would probably still be my best friend, but he was tragically killed some years ago in a barge accident. I am not sure I can relate to feeling closer to folks based specifically on religious affiliation. I guess I feel closer to other Christians because of a shared belief in eternal life via the atonement of Christ. However "closer" doesn't mean "close." It matters not to me which branch of Christianity. I believe that no particular branch, group, or denomination is important in the sense of closeness. I would feel closer to a kind diocesan priest than I would to an arrogant Protestant or LDS person. My best friend hates discussing politics, is really smart, very very kind, loves his wife dearly, is a great grandfather, and was with me through many difficult situations in our shared work life in a school district. As a group I probably feel closest to those who have spent their lives in leadership positions in public schools. Anyone who has lived their life in the rigors of public education leadership and has stayed true to its tenets is someone with whom I feel a bond. Their religious faith or affiliation is completely irrelevant to me. I am better at "a lot" than "a little" so I better stop for now! Feeling close to me implies friendship. That happens individually, not with groups. I don't pick my friends based on their faith. I hope that makes sense, but it may not on this forum where so much is predicated on church affiliation. Thanks for a good question. I hope you don't mind my answering with my own thoughts.
Navidad Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, Chum said: Are you ≥105 or have you been hanging out in a chapel since 7:17PM? Either way I may have questions. That is too funny. You got me on that one. I am almost 105 - 73 to be exact! I just changed it to 2017. As I think about it, I am writing my dissertation for my degree in Mexican religious history. My topic generally relates to La Segunda - the second Cristero "War" that occurred in the 1930s. I am so used to keyboarding 19-something that I just probably did that out of habit. Anyway, my wife and I have been faithfully attending an LDS ward since late 2017. The only time we miss is if I am traveling somewhere to speak at a conference, seminar, or workshop on history or education, or at a church, preaching on a Sunday. I will admit I skipped out on Elders Quorum a few weeks ago because we were going to discuss a talk by Brad Wilcox. I really didn't care to be a part of that. Sorry for the typo - sometimes I hit Submit Reply too quickly! 1
Chum Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) On 5/9/2022 at 1:35 AM, Rain said: I have just seen so many [protestants] who give so much of themselves for others in a very Christlike way. I have as well. I spent a decade w/ an agency that cared for developmentally disabled adults; it was started and run by evangelical Christians (inc an AOG pastor). I never felt unwelcome there. I've also been taken into backrooms by protestants for deprogramming and had pastors openly disdain and demonize my family (in pre-Romney times). I think my learned instinct to self-protect will never fully go away. Edited May 10, 2022 by Chum 4
Navidad Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 17 hours ago, The Nehor said: Hmmmm…..gonna go with Adamites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites Like me their movement is almost inherently self-destructive, they like to defy norms just to see what will happen, and they are exhibitionists (though my methods are usually not that blatant…..usually). I always learn something new from you! Thanks!
Chum Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, Navidad said: I will admit I skipped out on Elders Quorum a few weeks ago because we were going to discuss a talk by Brad Wilcox. I really didn't care to be a part of that. I'd probably skip that too. Life is short.
Navidad Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Chum said: I try to be welcoming by default but I think the instinct to self-protect will never fully go away. I think this is very true. I am an example of the other side of the coin to which you are referring. There are times my relationships with LDS folks is a bit of a "go away closer" disease similar to what is seen in dysfunctional families. I don't know whether to put out my hand to block a blow or shake a hand. I wish I could get over that. It is hard. 3
Chum Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, Navidad said: I think this is very true. I am an example of the other side of the coin to which you are referring. There are times my relationships with LDS folks is a bit of a "go away closer" disease similar to what is seen in dysfunctional families. I don't know whether to put out my hand to block a blow or shake a hand. I wish I could get over that. It is hard. We Saints are explicitly taught better in a meaningful and consistent way. From my perspective, that makes this especially damning. I'm probably supposed to say unfortunate instead of damning but it really sucks that we'd mistreat anyone. sidebars: One reason I don't like mono-culture is that minority (& non-isolated) faiths have better behaved adherents. Is there a succinct term for the compulsive resistance to cleaning up one's own house? I could use it in every 3rd conversation.
Navidad Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I have never met a member of the church that had any opinion either way on calling us a denomination. I've referred to us as one before many times. I wonder why the members that you are familiar with get so bent out of shape about it? It's interesting that they have such a strong reaction. Good question. I have come to realize that as a non-member, there is much I cannot and should not say to my LDS friends, including on this forum. My sense (I may be wrong) is that as someone on the edge of inside (my perspective), I am simply seen as someone on the outside. To many faithful LDS, someone is either in or out. I sense a real concern for "stranger danger." Therefore if I make a comment, it may be seen as criticism, attack, or in some way pejorative towards the LDS church. I see the LDS church as one church among many. One tree in the Christian forest. One branch on the Christian tree. One tributary of the Christian river - use whatever metaphor you want. If I say something like that, I am more often than not corrected. Even on this forum (perhaps especially on this forum) I am assured that the LDS is thee Christian church, theirs is thee Christian gospel, and that they have or are, in some way the only. To be fair, in more "liberal" LDS communities like the MHA, I more often than not hear "I don't believe that" when talking about the LDS and exceptionalism. I have tried to begin using the term "LDS exceptionalism" more than "exclusivity." Perhaps that is less offensive to the faithful. Other than in those settings, there is a clear distinction between "In" and "Out" to which I am not accustomed. I have had to learn to be more careful with my comments and accept that forever and a day I will be an outsider in the LDS community. Having said all that, in my limited interactions with church-wide leaders, I have never been made to feel that way. Not once. I appreciate that. Edited May 10, 2022 by Navidad 1
Chum Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, Navidad said: To many faithful LDS, someone is either in or out. I sense a real concern for "stranger danger." This I have seen. Leaders/parents parents in my last ward frequently stepped in to prevent the youth from having contact with non-members. I'd give a nickel to fully understand why. My current (neighboring) ward doesn't seem to be like that at all.
Navidad Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 29 minutes ago, Chum said: We Saints are explicitly taught better in a meaningful and consistent way. From my perspective, that makes this especially damning. I'm probably supposed to say unfortunate instead of damning but it really sucks that we'd mistreat anyone. sidebars: One reason I don't like mono-culture is that minority (& non-isolated) faiths have better behaved adherents. Is there a succinct term for the compulsive resistance to cleaning up one's own house? I could use it in every 3rd conversation. I don't know if this is such a term, but I find it helpful. In the paradigm known as the "Johari Window," the blind spot is the area that is known to others, but not to the person. I think that the vast majority of folks who say hurtful things may not do so intentionally. I think this is especially true in religious discourse. This is especially especially true in religious discourse involving cocooned (isolated - encysted) groups as described by B Carmon Hardy, the great LDS historian. When someone says to me, "I really enjoyed your prayer but I wish they wouldn't let non-members pray" I don't think they are intentionally unkind. When someone says, "I wish they wouldn't let non-members take the sacrament; they are just pretending." I am not sure they are being intentionally unkind. The fact that such comments might be hurtful is a blind spot for the faithful, regardless of religious affiliation. I blame blind spots for many of the deficits in effective communications. I know I have my own challenges with the same.
Chum Posted May 10, 2022 Posted May 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Navidad said: I don't know if this is such a term, but I find it helpful. In the paradigm known as the "Johari Window," the blind spot is the area that is known to others, but not to the person. I think that has bearing on how we treat each other but doesn't strongly address why no one wants to clean up their own house - or why internal armies will spontaneously appear to stop anyone who tries. Clarifying that this is a human thing, not a faith thing. 1
mfbukowski Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 On 5/8/2022 at 3:55 PM, Saint Bonaventure said: Please share a little (or a lot) in your answer. Catholics. We are very very close but we tend to harp on differences BECAUSE we are so close. BOTH: One true church Central organized leadership, believed to represent God's will Only true authority Approved, fairly fixed liturgies Symbology is central "Saints" Importance of Communion Communion of Saints, Council of Gods Marriage important issue for leadership Encyclicals and prophetic statements Purgatory vs Spirit Prison and help by living for progression of dead Temple architecture and Cathedral architecture tied back to Hebrew temples Process of repentance for actual sin- not "salvation" as an event Too many others to enumerate 2
Amulek Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 On 5/8/2022 at 5:55 PM, Saint Bonaventure said: Please share a little (or a lot) in your answer. Catholics, hands down. A good portion of that is likely due to the fact that my Catholic friends growing up were treated similarly poorly by the overwhelming Protestant majority in my home town. That shared suffering ended up pushing us together, and we found that despite our differences we had a great many things in common, just as others have mentioned (e.g., priesthood authority, institutional organization, importance of sacraments / ordinances, etc.). 4
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted May 11, 2022 Popular Post Posted May 11, 2022 In order: 1) Orthodox. There is so little that separates us. The Eastern Catholic Churches are basically Orthodox that acknowledge the Pope's primacy and supremacy. Remember, what most think of as the Catholic Church is really the Latin Church. There are 23 other churches in Catholicism. They are Eastern and follow Eastern rites, organization, etc. 2) LDS. For the reasons most people have listed as feeling closer to Catholicism: priesthood, organization, hierarchy, liturgy (I hear the liturgy is quite awesome in the temple, but Sundays are a little wanting, since it is mainly meetings instead ritual. I haven't been since you went to 2 hours instead of 3.) From my view on the outside, LDS cultural practices lean more protestant, such as no venerations/devotions, simple churches, etc. 3) Protestant. Burn those heretics! (read that in the voice of The Nehor). For the same reason many people have already said: lack of all the things that LDS and Catholics share. 4) Adamites. Running around naked appeals to my Grateful Dead sensibilities. 7
mfbukowski Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 I have posted this from time to time. If you are LDS and haven't seen it, prepare to be amazed. Old Joe must have had a time machine. These are rites from the Coptic Orthodox church, claimed to be among the most ancient remaining rites from early Christianity. There's much more on the website itself. The Roman Catholic church has(/had ? )similar rites in the ordination of priests, RC confirmation, the "Last Rites" and the ordination of priests. I am not sure if it is known generally in the church that the oil used in temple annointings is a special formula- not simple olive oil. https://www.copticchurch.net/introduction-to-the-coptic-church/sacraments/2_confirmation Quote THE ANOINTMENTS The priest places his right thumb on top of the opening of the Myron bottle, and turns it downwards to wet his finger with the Myron. He then anoints the baptized as follows : The first four anointments (eight crosses) are on the senses Firstly, the top of the head, the nostrils, the mouth, and the right ear Then, the right eye, the left eye, an finally the left ear Whilst anointing, the priest says, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The anointment of grace of the Holy Spirit, Amen." NOTES: He anoints The Head to sanctify it. The head contains the brain, where thinking takes place. It is the brain which distinguishes humankind from other creatures. A good mind is of great use and benefit to oneself and to others also. King Solomon praises the mind saying, "When wisdom enters your heart and knowledge is pleasant to your soul, discretion will preserve you, understanding will keep you, to deliver from the way evil" (Proverbs 2: 10-12). Also, the Lord Jesus praised the young man who answered wisely and said to him: "You are not far from the Kingdom of God" (Mark 12:34). And St. Paul our teacher prays for us saying, "And the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:7). The Nostrils contain the sense of smell, and it is an important sense, for if a person is not careful and alert, it is possible for impure thoughts to enter ones heart through this sense. Hence, the priest anoints it to protect it against all sin and lust. The Mouth with the tongue is the most dangerous organ in a person... "If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless" (James 1:26). "If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2). "The tongue is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison, it defiles the whole body and sets on fire the course of nature, and it is set on fire by hell" (James 3:8,6), if it is not controlled. The Psalmist prays, 'set a guard O Lord, over my mouth. Keep watch over the door of my lips. Do not incline my heart to any evil thing" (Psalm 141:3,4) And the wise King Solomon said: "Whoever guards his mouth and tongue keeps his soul from troubles" (Proverbs 21:23), and, "Put away from you a deceitful mouth, and put perverse lips far from you" (Proverbs 4:24. We ought to keep our tongue from sins such as swearing, insulting, lying, judging, and gossiping. Our words should always be graceful. The Ears provide us with the important sense of hearing, which should also be controlled, and the anointing of the Myron is a strong weapon in control what we hear. We protect our ears from hearing such things as gossip, and other conversations which may poison our hearts with revenge and hatred. We also protect our ears from hearing certain songs which may poison our hearts with lustful thoughts. The Eyes are the most important sense, through which enters more than 80% of information which may affect our hearts. If the information is holy, it sanctifies the heart, and vice versa. For this reason, we should control what we see so that we may keep ourselves pure. The tenth commandment says, "Do not covet". The Psalmist prays, "Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things" (Psalm 119:37), and, "Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from Your law" (Psalm 119:17). The second group of four anointments are as follows : The priest wets his right thumb with the Myron another time and anoints, The heart (chest) The navel The back The lower back Whilst anointing the priest prays : "An anointment as a token for the kingdom of heaven," as this holy anointment makes the Holy Spirit works in us and prepares us for the inheritance of the Kingdom of heaven. NOTES: Anointing the heart is very important as it is the organ which pumps blood to all the body. A healthy heart is important for a healthy body, and its spiritual welfare is required, as the wise King Solomon advises us saying, "Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it spring the issues of life" (Proverbs 4:23). The Navel is the place to which was joined the umbilical cord when a person was a fetus in his mother's womb. Through it the fetus is nourished and nurtured, and so by anointing it, the holy Myron is protecting it against Satan. The Back supports the body and is the place of the spine. If the spine is infected or damaged, severe pain may occur and even lead to paralysis. So it is important to protect it through the anointing of the Myron. The Lower Back is the area of sexual lusts, and so the anointing of the Myron sanctifies it and protects it by the power of the living Cross. This area also includes the kidneys. This group of anointments include the anointing of the heart, which must be cared for and renewed, as the Psalmist prayed, "Create in me a pure heart O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me" (Psalm 51:10), and, "Examine me O Lord and prove me. Try my mind and my heart" (Psalm 26:2). The third group of anointments are on the six joints of the arm: The priest wets his thumb with the holy Myron, and anoints, The right shoulder joint The right underarm The right elbow joint The inner elbow joint The right wrist joint The back of the right wrist Whilst anointing, the priest prays, "An anointment for the community of eternal life, Amen". The fourth group of anointments are on the other six joints: The left shoulder joint The left underarm The left elbow joint The left elbow joint The left wrist joint The back of the left wrist Whilst anointing, the priest prays, "A holy anointment of our Lord Jesus Christ, an imperishable seal, Amen." Anointing the hands is important, as they are instruments of work and contain the sense of touch. We should keep our hands pure from all things that may defile; from touching things that are impure, from partaking in ungodly deeds, from taking part in murder, stealing, and so on. The fifth group of anointments are on the six joints of the leg: The priest wets his thumb with the Myron and anoints, The right hip joint The right ureter (inside of the hip joint) The right knee joint The inner knee joint The right ankle joint Above the right ankle joint The priest anoints them saying, "Perfection of the grace of the Holy Spirit, Amen." These are sensitive parts of the body, for near the inner hips lies the reproductive organs, and the church anoints this area so that the child may lead of life of purity. The sexual organs are called the holy of Holies of the body, and so keeping them pure is required. Through the anointing of the Myron, these organs are being protected from sexual immorality, which greatly angers God. God destroyed the old world because of their profanity, through wiping them out by the flood. Likewise, He burnt the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, and judged them to become an example of the fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries, "Those who died in the plague were twenty four thousand" (Numbers 25:9). For this reason, St. Paul our teacher advises every youth saying, "Keep yourself pure" (1 Timothy 5:22), for without holiness no one can see the Lord. The sixth group of anointments are on the other six joints: The priest wets his thumb with the Myron and anoints, The left hip joint The left ureter (inside of the hip joint) The left knee joint The inner knee joint The left ankle joint Above the left ankle joint The priest anoints them saying, "I anoint you (...name) by a holy anointment. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit Amen." Anointing the feet is to protect them from walking in the way of sin, and from going to corrupt places. Avoiding the way of sin will enable us to live a virtuous life, and finally gain eternal life. After finishing the anointments, the priest places his hand on the child's head, saying, "May you be blessed by the blessings of the heavenly, and the blessings of the angels. May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you in His name." NOTES: We notice that the priest anoints the child's right arm, then the left, and the right leg before the left. He gives priority to the right side because it is the center of power in the human body, for example, most work is done by the right hand. Also, when he enters the altar, he must enter with his right foot first. Blessing of the Heavenly: signifies the blessings of all the heavenly hosts, whether they be saints or angels. Blessing of the Angels: signifies their care, watchfulness, assistance and intercession for the baptized person, and how they accompany us and keep us from all evil. Here we are assured of the idea of a guardian angel. As the ruler of devils appoints a demon for every born child in order to delude and seduce them, so too does the Lord appoint every person after Baptism and anointment by the Myron, an angel to watch, accompany, care and keep them. The existence of guardian angels are clearly mentioned in the Lord's words (Matthew 18:10 and Acts 12:15). Blessing of the Lord Jesus Christ: signifies His gifts and providence for each believer to live with God. In His Name: implies that the believer is blessed by the name of the Lord Jesus through which, "There is no name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). The Baptized person is now a Christian, having been called by the glorified name of the Lord Jesus Christ. NOTES: The 36 anointments are on all the joints and senses of the human body, and the anointment protects them against Satanic warfare, so that the devil does not abide in this person by any means. A Christian who is possessed by a demon, is said to be "Myron deficient, which means that he was not anointed by the Myron as required, and so the devil was able to penetrate into his body and dwell there. The child is anointed by the Myron only once in life, so we always ask the priests to take care in administering the Myron after Baptism, lest neglect may bring harm to the child. The priest anoints the new white garments of the child with three signs of the cross, then dresses the baby with the undergarment first saying, "The garment of eternal life to enable them to enter to the Kingdom of heaven."
mfbukowski Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: 2) LDS. For the reasons most people have listed as feeling closer to Catholicism: priesthood, organization, hierarchy, liturgy (I hear the liturgy is quite awesome in the temple, but Sundays are a little wanting, since it is mainly meetings instead ritual. I haven't been since you went to 2 hours instead of 3.) From my view on the outside, LDS cultural practices lean more protestant, such as no venerations/devotions, simple churches, etc. Howdy mi amigo! Yeah, we make up for the "ritual" and "liturgy" part in the temple, but it too is becoming simplified. Our very own "Vatican II" is underway and some are reacting in the same way the old timers reacted to Vatican II. You have probably figured that out from this board alone. Yay! I get to go through it twice in different churches! Yet another similarity!! 1
MiserereNobis Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: These are rites from the Coptic Orthodox church, claimed to be among the most ancient remaining rites from early Christianity. There's much more on the website itself. Just for those reading: this same liturgy is in the Catholic Church, too. There is a Coptic Catholic Church that uses the same Coptic rite. 2
MiserereNobis Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Howdy mi amigo! Yeah, we make up for the "ritual" and "liturgy" part in the temple, but it too is becoming simplified. Our very own "Vatican II" is underway and some are reacting in the same way the old timers reacted to Vatican II. You have probably figured that out from this board alone. Yay! I get to go through it twice in different churches! Yet another similarity!! Yes, I've noticed the discussions of the changes in your temple liturgy. It's an interesting comparison. Could it be possible to have two temple liturgies? The old and the new? That's how it is now -- those of us who want to attend the traditional Latin mass can, and those who want the new mass can go there.
mfbukowski Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Just for those reading: this same liturgy is in the Catholic Church, too. There is a Coptic Catholic Church that uses the same Coptic rite. Good, forgot that way of seeing it. So you guys ARE LDS afterall! Get yourself baptized LDS for pete's sake and get to the temple so we can really have some GOOD talks!! I used to chat with a fellow temple worker who was a former Catholic priest, in our temple. - Absolutely true!! MAN!!!! The talks we had!! Those dang Greek philosophers messed up EVERYTHING! Just because they could not define "substance" or "essence" and "nature"!! Who can!?? Yes it's all a mystery- so then why not keep it that way and admit it and quit trying to define mysteries! Love you guys- but MAN that just seems so contradictory- We leave it at "It's a mystery no one understands but God can confirm it in your heart" But then some on our side want to know the scientific details of the incarnation. Give me a break!!! Humans- can't live with them and can't live without them!! Just declare me as emperor of the world and I will dictate religious beliefs and make all bow down before me and everything will be fine! 👹 1
mfbukowski Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 23 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Yes, I've noticed the discussions of the changes in your temple liturgy. It's an interesting comparison. Could it be possible to have two temple liturgies? The old and the new? That's how it is now -- those of us who want to attend the traditional Latin mass can, and those who want the new mass can go there. It could kinda work but not really. It ain't gonna happen! A portion of the endowment is "theatrical"- it is the story of Adam and Eve- as played originally by "actors"= temple workers- but ordinary regular human temple workers, who at home were Barbers or factory workers or farmers etc- volunteer members. But when the technology made it possible, a set of films with the same words spoken by different "actors"- again temple workers but this time on film/video tape- were developed. But some temples, primarily SLC kept the old "live actor" form of the endowment for years, as a kind of historical presentation of "how it used to be". It was pretty cool actually to see "Adam" and "Eve" being played by an 87 year old man and Eve by a similarly aged woman! Think about that one! And I guess I have to say here- of course no nudity. Some might actually go there.... sadly. It really brought home the "Everyman" understanding that we are ALL "Adam and Eve" symbolically. But being old AND memorizing vast scripts by volunteers- and the ease with which technology solved the problem won out- and I am sure other factors. BUT- the words stayed the same.!!! Hence the similarity with Vatican II- the words stayed the same- for a while anyway- but spoken in the local language rather than "universal" Latin- the original language for so many others, and therefore more easily translated into any language. But language IS a context and contexts ARE meanings, so that could not hold. Translation of nuances is impossible- there is always something "lost in translation" But THAT is not the same as changing the wording and therefore context- as eventually happened with Vatican II. But I do like the fact that our more simplified rites are easier to understand and more explicit- instead of being taught symbolically they are pretty much now in explicit and more easily definable which makes things more clear with less ambiguity but then also less opportunity for spiritual interpretation. Naw, it ain't going back, not in my opinion. 1
jkwilliams Posted May 11, 2022 Posted May 11, 2022 10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: It could kinda work but not really. It ain't gonna happen! A portion of the endowment is "theatrical"- it is the story of Adam and Eve- as played originally by "actors"= temple workers- but ordinary regular human temple workers, who at home were Barbers or factory workers or farmers etc- volunteer members. But when the technology made it possible, a set of films with the same words spoken by different "actors"- again temple workers but this time on film/video tape- were developed. But some temples, primarily SLC kept the old "live actor" form of the endowment for years, as a kind of historical presentation of "how it used to be". It was pretty cool actually to see "Adam" and "Eve" being played by an 87 year old man and Eve by a similarly aged woman! Think about that one! And I guess I have to say here- of course no nudity. Some might actually go there.... sadly. It really brought home the "Everyman" understanding that we are ALL "Adam and Eve" symbolically. But being old AND memorizing vast scripts by volunteers- and the ease with which technology solved the problem won out- and I am sure other factors. BUT- the words stayed the same.!!! Hence the similarity with Vatican II- the words stayed the same- for a while anyway- but spoken in the local language rather than "universal" Latin- the original language for so many others, and therefore more easily translated into any language. But language IS a context and contexts ARE meanings, so that could not hold. Translation of nuances is impossible- there is always something "lost in translation" But THAT is not the same as changing the wording and therefore context- as eventually happened with Vatican II. But I do like the fact that our more simplified rites are easier to understand and more explicit- instead of being taught symbolically they are pretty much now in explicit and more easily definable which makes things more clear with less ambiguity but then also less opportunity for spiritual interpretation. Naw, it ain't going back, not in my opinion. My first day in the MTC, I was in line in the cafeteria behind an elderly couple. They looked really familiar to me, but I couldn’t figure out where I had seen them. Then I realized they were Adam and Eve when I attended the Salt Lake Temple a few weeks before. Growing up, I got the “Catholic church is the church of the devil” stuff, and we were taught that the Reformation was a necessary precursor to the Restoration. And I was told many times that we had a lot in common with Jews. Growing up in a largely Jewish neighborhood, I never saw that supposed affinity.
Pyreaux Posted May 12, 2022 Posted May 12, 2022 On 5/10/2022 at 9:35 AM, Navidad said: Welcome to the forum from a veteran who is currently a "non-denominational Christian" attending an LDS Ward since 2017. I grew up in a non-denominational Christian church and pastored one for some years. I also taught psychology, theology, and homiletics in a non-denominational Christian college. Perhaps I would offer to you that looking down on someone is rarely a good position from which to have a dialogue. Should I be "looking down on" my LDS friends because most of them deny being in a denomination? In fact, when I have called the LDS a denomination I am usually met with a flurry of denials. You use the term Mormon or Mormonism six times in your post. Are you LDS or a Fundamentalist Mormon? The Community of Christ? Just asking. I have lots of friends in each of those communities. Welcome to the forum. We might be a more diverse community than your realize! I am LDS, but I'm really more LDS+ with a deep love of the Royal Israelite Cult and Non-Canonical Books and beliefs that I believe align with Mormonism but I could never say in church. I actively attend Jehovah's Witnesses, Messianic Jews, and non-denominational churches and study groups. I'm opinionated but I'm not a bad guy to dialog with. I try to talk to people on their own terms, I never interrupt lessons but rather I contribute whenever I can and agree. The JWs don't even know I'm not one of them. I may role my eyes when they tell me their church is true because of such pointers as non-pay ministers, missionaries and rapid church growth... Sure, guys, I agree, but I don't tell you that the Saints beat you by a hundred years... Only privately or in discussion groups do I express my true self, I know I can never change the religion, I never try to do that. I argue...er, rather openly disagree... (need to be careful about how I say things) with the ideas put forward by my non-denominational and my Apostolic Oneness friends all the time. They sometimes throw my Mormonism in my face when I do so, like it has something to do with it. Even though everything I say is usually Bible-based, Dead Sea Scrolls this and that, they come out of left field, "err, didn't Joseph Smith practice polygamy?"... Now what does that have to do with the price of whips in Denmark? Just because you know I'm right about one thing doesn't mean all my Mormon beliefs are true. I never tear down anything without building up faith. Whenever I disparage the Bible's transmission errors, I never bring it up without taking time to explain why that its not detrimental to my faith. We generally have an understanding. I poke at my Messianic friends about their Constantine conspiracy theory about Sunday. I poke at my Apostolic Oneness people who have this theory of God is "one" because he is Omnipresent and can be in two places at once. I have to explain that just because its a probable explanation, that doesn't mean its the only possible explanation. And I poke at my non-denominational friends when they talk against divisions, when they are the most divided of all groups... Its a different argument than merely not accepting the denominations that currently exist and those who want to avoid the label. Actually, I despise this "no labels" trend, which ironically itself has become a label, via the “No Labels” centrist movement. I mean, whats not to like about the incoherent thinking of the inarticulate masses, who's goals seems to be to have no clue who your enemy is, except people who use labels. Dare to call someone a socialist and stand accused of exacerbating problems rather than solving them. As if labels are the reason for disagreement, it isn't. Differences in philosophies are real and a middle ground is an illusion. Please tell me the middle position on abortion or the death penalty? There will always be a label on something. Labels arise because people believe in something in common, believe in it wholeheartedly, and want their ideas to prevail. They don’t believe in swapping out some of them for others in order to make nice to the other side. They want the other side to lose and their side to win because they believe their ideas are good and the other side’s ideas are bad. We all do it, and it will never stop, and if it ever does, I guess I'll have to endure more vagueness and incoherence than I do already. So... Yes, look down on (err, openly disagree with) those denominational Saints, but tell them what-fore. Tell them if the truth hurts, get a helmet.
mfbukowski Posted May 12, 2022 Posted May 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Pyreaux said: On 5/10/2022 at 7:35 AM, Navidad said: diverse community than your realize! I am LDS, but I'm really more LDS+ with a deep love of the Royal Israelite Cult and Non-Canonical Books and beliefs that I believe align with Mormonism but I could never say in church. Welcome! I am actually a humanist and true blue member of the COJCLDS. How can we follow a Human God and NOT be a humanist? Aren't we trying to be perfect humans too? I think we're gonna get along just fine!
Recommended Posts