Navidad Posted May 15, 2022 Posted May 15, 2022 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: One usually quotes the post upon which one is replying, without doing so it appears to be avoidance of confronting the actual issue Wow, I didn't know that! 1
mfbukowski Posted May 15, 2022 Posted May 15, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Navidad said: There are no posts that I "refuse to discuss." In fact, I probably discuss too many too much. Perhaps over and over. I recently made a comment here that we all see these issues and subjects through our own filters. I think you agreed with that, but I am not certain. Let me try and clearly say several things about me (not you) that I hope will be helpful to you and perhaps others in understanding me: 1. I don't deal well with mocking, sarcasm, generalizing, normalizing, ranking, and especially with dehumanizing. These are filters with which I find it difficult to interact. I believe they are precursors to a host of isms - racism, ethnocentrism, creedalism, ageism, sexism, etc etc etc that are the causes of most of that which divides us and our communication. Both intellectually and emotionally I don't deal well with them. 2. My faith is not a cognitive, pragmatic, intellectual exercise. It is not a battle or a game to be won. It is not a strategy. It is very affective, emotional, and satisfying just as it is. In that sense it is "the best one for me, that is what I can see" - not because I have assurance of eternal life, but because it gives me permission to explore, seek, and understand things that are very different - kind of like living here in Mexico does. My entire life I have been a flighter, not a fighter. I avoid conflict, mocking, sarcasm, and demeaning forms of expression whenever and wherever I can. If that leads to certain comments that I "refuse to discuss" then so be it. It is not a fault. I am not you. You are not me. You are not superior to me, nor I to you. My faith is not superior to yours, nor is yours to mine. Neither are the best- that is a completely foreign concept to how I think. I am not exceptional; neither is my faith. I am not the only true and living anything; neither is my faith. That is why I left Fundamentalism as a young man. 3. I do not value certainty. I believe my emotions, beliefs, and wisdom grow with uncertainty. Therefore I enjoy engaging in uncertainty. I love visiting places I have never been before, turning down a road I have never traveled, learning about new things, especially that which may expand how I look at life. That is growth to me. I don't spend time on this board to find confirmation of my own faith. The idea of fortifying what I already know, strengthening my existing beliefs or faith, or mounting the bulwark is of no interest to me. Intellectual one-upsmanship is of no interest to me. Three hours of discussion with the Catholic bishop in our region - now that is fascinating and growth-producing. 4. Since 1989 the Mormon faith has been a new world for me - one of great interest in understanding. Recently it has become much less of a shiny object for me. It is a world of generalizing, normalizing, ranking and to a much smaller degree dehumanizing (mocking) those who are not them. That makes me lose interest. They are at the same time kind and loving, but I can't even bathe in that because then someone says something about needing to be worthy, or assures me of what I am not. So that I fear that even the kindness becomes a worthiness exercise instead of a pure (sun-tested) expression of love. I am not going to the ward today. This forum sometimes makes me not go. You sometimes make me not want to go to the ward. I am tired of the constant bickering, debate, and especially the normalizing and generalizing about those who are not popular on this forum. 5. I am not trying to be you. I have no faith crisis. A faith crisis for me would be certainty that I am right, or the best. That would be the end of the road of becoming. That is not a positive outcome. 6. I fell two weeks ago and have struggled with getting over the physical damage (concussion, missing and broken teeth, bruises, inflammation, and infection). That is a finite thing. I hope I will get over it, but it bothers me a lot right now. I acknowledge that. I have my own blind spots. You have yours. I won't write any more. My filters are not yours, neither are yours mine. You once recently said you were praying for my recovery from my fall. I about fell out of my desk chair. That meant a lot. But you quickly went back to your default sarcasm. That hurt a lot, because you took away the gift you had given me. I regret that and any role I played in it. Where have you gotten it wrong? - your last question. You have gotten it wrong by preferring that I be you or that I should respond to things as you would. I understand you much better now, thanks and God bless you. As a good pacifist you have come to a forum in which debate predominates peace making, as I see it, and being a Mennonite then is the best path for you, perhaps My best to you and yours. I have never intended to mock you etc. and I am sorry you see it that way, to me, I am simply having a discussion where argumentation and advocacy is expected. Sorry again, our expectations about this board are quite different. I am here to defend my church, as an apologist, and that is my prime objective, and I relish a good logical debate. Our goals appear to be incompatible, which explains why we don't get along well. Edited May 15, 2022 by mfbukowski 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 16, 2022 Posted May 16, 2022 10 hours ago, Navidad said: You once recently said you were praying for my recovery from my fall. I about fell out of my desk chair. That meant a lot. But you quickly went back to your default sarcasm. That hurt a lot, because you took away the gift you had given me. One can certainly pray -- sincerely and humbly -- for people whom one disagrees with. I do it all the time. The Lord even commanded us to pray for our enemies, which I hope doesn't include you! My sister in America is very sick right now. She caught influenza, which progressed to double pneumonia, and the doctors have discovered that she has serious infection in some of her vital organs as well. Not good. I mentioned this to one of my Muslim friends right before the end of Ramadan, and he offered to fast and pray for her. Awesome! I fully expect God to hear and honour his prayers. None of this compels me to agree with my friend about Jesus not being the Son of God or the Saviour of all mankind. Mercifully, he would never expect that of me. 3
mfbukowski Posted May 16, 2022 Posted May 16, 2022 56 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Powerful and exactly on point!
Navidad Posted May 16, 2022 Posted May 16, 2022 On 5/14/2022 at 10:47 AM, The Nehor said: Enjoy it while it lasts. I don’t think it will much longer. Why is that? What do you think is going to happen?
Navidad Posted May 16, 2022 Posted May 16, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: None of this compels me to agree with my friend about Jesus not being the Son of God or the Saviour of all mankind. Mercifully, he would never expect that of me. I like your post. Let me opine on one small thing. I agree with this statement from you. I do believe that the situation you described does perhaps compel you to respond in kind and with kindness. That response might entail a refusal to mock, denigrate, or generalize your friend or his faith because it isn't yours and you don't agree with it. His truth may not be your truth; but his kindness can certainly be your kindness. You may in your heart or mind believe you are the "only," but I don't think that belief has to translate into denigration. Disagreement and denigration are not synonyms. And of course, not all disagreement is denigration. I would say the same whether your friend were Muslim, Protestant, Evangelical, Catholic, or of any other faith. Referring to your Emerson quote, I am not sure of its application in this situation. Being "contradicted" is not a synonym for being mocked. Contradiction may move into mocking; it then becomes something else that honors neither party. Just my two cents. Take care and best wishes. Edited May 16, 2022 by Navidad
Navidad Posted May 16, 2022 Posted May 16, 2022 (edited) On 5/15/2022 at 3:08 PM, mfbukowski said: I understand you much better now, thanks and God bless you. As a good pacifist you have come to a forum in which debate predominates peace making, as I see it, and being a Mennonite then is the best path for you, perhaps My best to you and yours. I have never intended to mock you etc. and I am sorry you see it that way, to me, I am simply having a discussion where argumentation and advocacy is expected. Sorry again, our expectations about this board are quite different. I am here to defend my church, as an apologist, and that is my prime objective, and I relish a good logical debate. Our goals appear to be incompatible, which explains why we don't get along well. Thanks for the reply. Communication if of course, a two way process. I could, with equal sincerity say to you that I have never intended to mock or denigrate you or the LDS faith in any way. You may indeed have received my words differently. I honor and respect you so I must honor and respect how you receive my comments, understanding that I have my own blind spots. If you view this forum as a place with argumentation and advocacy is expected; then it is only logical that you will respond with the same. I view it as a community to which I would like to belong. Even within communities there are disparate perspectives. I understand that. I can only offer that there is no need for you, as an apologist, swordsman, or bulwark-mounter to defend your church against me. Over the years that I have been on this forum, I have strongly and I believe, effectively defended the LDS church to those who would attack it. I cannot defend every aspect, belief, and doctrine of the LDS Church, but then neither do most of the church members on this forum! I cannot defend every aspect, belief, and doctrine of the broader Christian community, the Evangelical community, or the Mennonite church either. It is interesting (to me at least) that my issues with the LDS church are not nearly as doctrinal as much as they are sociological. The beliefs really don't matter to me since I find a commonality (especially in our ward) on the atonement. We can "debate" the sufficiency of the atonement perhaps, but I wouldn't enjoy that. The principal issues I have with those in the LDS church are most often identity and in-group/out-group related. I think those are more cultural than doctrinal. The curious thing is that they are quite similar to the identity of the Anabaptists (Brethren, Mennonite, and Amish). I would like to "get along" better with you. That is a worthy goal. It is one that would please the Savior. Just Edited May 16, 2022 by Navidad 1
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