JAHS Posted April 22, 2022 Posted April 22, 2022 Sounds like the start of a joke, but the article itself is no joke. It is long but if you have the time and interest it is written by an Orthodox Jewish person who attended the Washington DC Temple tour that was led by Elder Gong. His observations include some comparisons between the Church and the Jewish faith regarding beliefs and structures of worship. An Orthodox Jew Goes Into an LDS Temple… 2
bluebell Posted April 22, 2022 Posted April 22, 2022 10 hours ago, JAHS said: Sounds like the start of a joke, but the article itself is no joke. It is long but if you have the time and interest it is written by an Orthodox Jewish person who attended the Washington DC Temple tour that was led by Elder Gong. His observations include some comparisons between the Church and the Jewish faith regarding beliefs and structures of worship. An Orthodox Jew Goes Into an LDS Temple… It was an interesting article. I thought the end was a little ironic. How he made a big to-do about how the Jewish temple was for everyone and that the LDS temple is only for some. Did he forget that there were many parts of the ancient Jewish temple where not everyone could go (where no one could go except at a specific time), and even a whole section where Jewish women were never allowed? I'm sure he didn't, so I'd love to ask him how he squares that with his perception that the ancient Jewish temple open to everyone, no matter sex or religion. He also has an obvious lackluster understanding of our religion, but that is to be expected and I don't fault him for it. I have a lackluster understanding of his (and of everyone's that I'm not a part of). Plus, he doesn't understand that members of our church have very different views about things (in fact, he stated that we don't ever really disagree), so his understanding of how his friend explains our beliefs is probably to him, the only explanation needed. Another kind of ironic thing is that the Jewish author goes on about how we have an infantile relationship with God (because of our beliefs that we are His children) and this week's Follow Him podcast with Smith and Bytheway talked about that. The scholar of the week (who I can't remember off of the top of my head) actually went out of his way to mention that we need to remember that God does not treat us like children in His relationship with us, but that He treats us like partners. He also mentioned how we don't believe that we need to have a personal relationship with God and said that we believe we are just "nameless children". And also implied that we don't believe in having an honest messy relationship with God, where we can be angry at Him or question Him. So our theology agrees with this author more than he is aware on that regard. Again, examples of his limited understanding of our theology-a limited understanding that he doesn't sound like he's aware of but I don't hold that against him at all. Finally, near the beginning of the article he mentions that his friend told him that we aren't supposed to attempt to convert practicing Jews because part of our theology is that we need them to stay practicing Jews so they can eventually "offer a sacrifice" during the second coming. Now, I know that in many places we are not allowed to proselytize among Jews, but I had also thought that that was because the Jewish leaders did not want us to and we wanted to honor that request. I had never heard that it was a part of our theology that we not. Did I miss that somewhere? 2
JAHS Posted April 22, 2022 Author Posted April 22, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, bluebell said: I thought the end was a little ironic. How he made a big to-do about how the Jewish temple was for everyone and that the LDS temple is only for some. Did he forget that there were many parts of the ancient Jewish temple where not everyone could go (where no one could go except at a specific time), and even a whole section where Jewish women were never allowed? RIght. He is simply referring to the word "temple", but our definitions of what a temple is and the purpose of them are quite different. 6 hours ago, bluebell said: Finally, near the beginning of the article he mentions that his friend told him that we aren't supposed to attempt to convert practicing Jews because part of our theology is that we need them to stay practicing Jews so they can eventually "offer a sacrifice" during the second coming. He got this directly from his friend who may not have explained himself very well. As far as I know there are no restrictions against baptizing Jews. And regardless of how many Jews convert to the Church there will be plenty more left to offer those sacrifices in the new temple. Edited April 22, 2022 by JAHS 1
rpn Posted April 23, 2022 Posted April 23, 2022 We don't proselytize Jews because the scriptures put them in a separate and distinct group with specific promises and timing. At least that is my understanding. The jews as a people (though not necessarily any of the Judaic versions or culture or groups), are already God's people (though the state of Israel doesn't act like it in its interaction with Palestinians much). 1
Calm Posted April 23, 2022 Posted April 23, 2022 (edited) Pretty sure we do proselyte Jews except in Israel, though I suppose the Jewish converts I have known I personally know could have all sought out the Church themselves and had the missionaries sent to them. Quote "Missionaries are allowed to proselytize, although the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) voluntarily refrains from proselytizing under an agreement with the Government."[52] Brigham Young University (BYU) has a study center in Jerusalem that is active in research and cultural activities (e.g., classical music concerts). Its creation was initially protested by Haredi Jewish groups which claimed, despite Mormon reassurances, that it would be a center of proselytizing activities. BYU was allowed to open the center in Jerusalem only after promising the mayor that no proselytizing would take place and that all students would be foreigners.[53] The courses at the center, attracting students from BYU and other institutions of higher learning in the US who wanted to do credit coursework in Israel, have previously been temporarily suspended due to security concerns.[54] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_Mormonism#Conversion_and_proselytization Not official, but Mark Paredes is an expert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Paredes) on the subject and would know if we weren’t and would have shared that info at the discussion, I am speculating. Quote Similarly, although the Church considers Jews to be a part of the Abrahamic covenant, Mormons nonetheless proselytize them. The title page of the Book of Mormon explicitly asserts that its goal is the “convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ.” https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/4/14/church-interfaith-mormon-jews/ Edited April 23, 2022 by Calm 2
bluebell Posted April 23, 2022 Posted April 23, 2022 11 hours ago, Calm said: Pretty sure we do proselyte Jews except in Israel, though I suppose the Jewish converts I have known I personally know could have all sought out the Church themselves and had the missionaries sent to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_Mormonism#Conversion_and_proselytization Not official, but Mark Paredes is an expert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Paredes) on the subject and would know if we weren’t and would have shared that info at the discussion, I am speculating. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/4/14/church-interfaith-mormon-jews/ Sounds like there are some folk traditions concerning Jewish people that some members believe that aren't correct. 1
manol Posted May 19, 2022 Posted May 19, 2022 On 4/21/2022 at 10:57 PM, JAHS said: Sounds like the start of a joke, but the article itself is no joke. It is long but if you have the time and interest it is written by an Orthodox Jewish person who attended the Washington DC Temple tour that was led by Elder Gong. His observations include some comparisons between the Church and the Jewish faith regarding beliefs and structures of worship. An Orthodox Jew Goes Into an LDS Temple… Thank you for the link, enjoyed the article very much. On 4/22/2022 at 9:28 PM, Calm said: Pretty sure we do proselyte Jews except in Israel... I'm fairly confident that was true as of forty-something years ago. I was a missionary in Europe and translated the (three?) Jewish discussions from English into the language of the country I served in, and subsequently taught quite a few Jewish people. The Jewish discussions were designed to lay a foundation of Jesus Christ as the Messiah, which is considerably more ambitious than presenting to a Christian the idea that Joseph Smith was a prophet. In my opinion whoever wrote those discussions did an excellent job, and to say that I enjoyed presenting them would be a huge understatement. Not that my sample size was large enough to be representative, but my observation was that Israelis tended to be the most interested in and receptive to what we had to say. Later I spent some time at a university in Tel Aviv. In Israel the church had "representative couples" who were forbidden to initiate conversations about religion, but were permitted to answer questions. They told me that the question "What are you doing in Israel?" would naturally come up in casual conversations, so the prohibition against proselyting was not an insurmountable impediment.
Pyreaux Posted May 19, 2022 Posted May 19, 2022 (edited) My Jewish friends seem to attend Orthodox services, but their Rabbi and they privately dabble in Kabballistic books, some before their due time (you ideally are not to read the Zohar until you are 40 years old). Such Jews are easy to relate to when they've advanced to this stage in their study, especially since Kabbalah is late Royal Cult ideology. Mormonism is the only modern active expression of Royal ideology. They seem to think Jesus Christ was a Jew, whom practiced Judaism the way it should have always been practiced. Of course they think he is a Kabballistic Jew or Gnostic Jew, but these are late mutations. They know a little about initiatory transformations. Edited May 20, 2022 by Pyreaux Grammar
Kenngo1969 Posted May 19, 2022 Posted May 19, 2022 14 hours ago, manol said: Thank you for the link, enjoyed the article very much. I'm fairly confident that was true as of forty-something years ago. I was a missionary in Europe and translated the (three?) Jewish discussions from English into the language of the country I served in, and subsequently taught quite a few Jewish people. The Jewish discussions were designed to lay a foundation of Jesus Christ as the Messiah, which is considerably more ambitious than presenting to a Christian the idea that Joseph Smith was a prophet. In my opinion whoever wrote those discussions did an excellent job, and to say that I enjoyed presenting them would be a huge understatement. Not that my sample size was large enough to be representative, but my observation was that Israelis tended to be the most interested in and receptive to what we had to say. Later I spent some time at a university in Tel Aviv. In Israel the church had "representative couples" who were forbidden to initiate conversations about religion, but were permitted to answer questions. They told me that the question "What are you doing in Israel?" would naturally come up in casual conversations, so the prohibition against proselyting was not an insurmountable impediment. Wow. Cool. Thanks for sharing. Makes me curious to know where you served, but I suppose you have good reasons for being circumspect about that.
manol Posted May 19, 2022 Posted May 19, 2022 25 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Wow. Cool. Thanks for sharing. Makes me curious to know where you served, but I suppose you have good reasons for being circumspect about that. France, mostly in the outskirts of Paris.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 19, 2022 Posted May 19, 2022 1 hour ago, manol said: France, mostly in the outskirts of Paris. Cool. You may recall, of course, the Brussels Airport bombing in which four missionaries were injured. As it happens, I know the most senior and the most seriously injured of those missionaries rather well: Elder Richard I. Norby was my Seminary teacher during my freshman and senior years of high school, respectively.
manol Posted May 21, 2022 Posted May 21, 2022 On 5/19/2022 at 4:05 PM, Kenngo1969 said: Cool. You may recall, of course, the Brussels Airport bombing in which four missionaries were injured. As it happens, I know the most senior and the most seriously injured of those missionaries rather well: Elder Richard I. Norby was my Seminary teacher during my freshman and senior years of high school, respectively. I don't recall Elder Norby, but I don't begin to remember all the names of all the other missionaries from back then (early 80's).
Kenngo1969 Posted May 21, 2022 Posted May 21, 2022 13 minutes ago, manol said: I don't recall Elder Norby, but I don't begin to remember all the names of all the other missionaries from back then (early 80's). No worries. Sorry for the confusion. The Brussels Airport bombing occurred well after you served, in 2016.
Jaydes Posted June 1, 2022 Posted June 1, 2022 On 4/22/2022 at 7:05 PM, rpn said: We don't proselytize Jews because the scriptures put them in a separate and distinct group with specific promises and timing. At least that is my understanding. The jews as a people (though not necessarily any of the Judaic versions or culture or groups), are already God's people (though the state of Israel doesn't act like it in its interaction with Palestinians much). We don't proselytize to Israeli jews because we made an agreement with their government to not do so in order to retain the BYU Jerusalem Center.
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