Racism in 21st Century America

[Robert F. Smith]

37 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How do we get woke and go broke by addressing the racial component of appraisal issues? Cannot a saint engage in this endeavor without taking their eye off Zion?

Those who were part of the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s will recognize "eye on the prize," as a key concept.  A key focus.  Side issues are nice, and sometimes can be litigated or legislated, but resources are limited and the primary issues must be dealt with first.  LBJ understood that, and got the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 passed by twisting as many arms as he had to.  He wasted no time and energy on side issues.  Unfortunately, he allowed Vietnam to become a war of choice and destroyed his own presidency -- and saddled us with Nixon.  Vietnam was a side issue, which did tremendous damage to this country, and we keep getting waylaid by such unnecessary adventures.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Those who were part of the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s will recognize "eye on the prize," as a key concept.  A key focus.  Side issues are nice, and sometimes can be litigated or legislated, but resources are limited and the primary issues must be dealt with first.  LBJ understood that, and got the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 passed by twisting as many arms as he had to.  He wasted no time and energy on side issues.  Unfortunately, he allowed Vietnam to become a war of choice and destroyed his own presidency -- and saddled us with Nixon.  Vietnam was a side issue, which did tremendous damage to this country, and we keep getting waylaid by such unnecessary adventures.

How would eliminating consideration of racially-based aspects of individual and group involvement and contribution to the economy be a side issue to protecting/enforcing civil rights -- in this OP’s case, home appraisal practices and regulations; are you saying there are higher-priority racial barriers to address?

[Robert F. Smith]

23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How would eliminating consideration of racially-based aspects of individual and group involvement and contribution to the economy be a side issue to protecting/enforcing civil rights -- in this OP’s case, home appraisal practices and regulations; are you saying there are higher-priority racial barriers to address?

Nice questions, but what sort of program do you envision?  There are a great many things I would like to see done, but realism gets in the way.  We must deal with practical realities rather than pie in the sky.  The corporate elite will not allow certain things to be done.  We need to focus.  A great deal hangs in the balance, and there is no guarantee that we will prevail with even minor interim measures.  We cannot legislate morality.

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and one of my close friends was a recipient of one of those checks -- a pittance for all they had lost, homes, businesses, etc.  And so long after the fact, by about 50 years.  I knew a man who was the primary minister to those Japanese internees, a Methodist minister who spoke fluent Japanese (Rev Frank Herron Smith "The White Jap"), and a huge number of Japanese came to his funeral in 1965 in Berkeley, California.  Now there was a man who lived the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

They were inadequate that’s for sure. But it’s more than african Americans have gotten for generations of policies and stances that broke family, damaged communities, and left every last one a second class citizen or not a citizen at all for centuries. 
personally I think it’s better to try and address it than to not. Even if it doesn’t go far enough. Currently it seems we vacillate between despair or denial. As in we deny the gravity of the problem and the extent it is still felt and effects entire communities today to one degree or another. Or we despair about the largeness of the problem assuming it can never be fully addressed. That we’re fated to be stuck with an inherently unequal society. Both just leave us in our current system and approach that never fully grapples with what we’ve done to peoples who are part of the fabric of the US and what is needed to move forward and to start addressing it, however small the first steps. 
 

as to who I would start with first, that’s easy: Native Americans and African Americans (specifically those descended from slavery). The reasons are simple. They’re the groups that have had the most severe historical policies of discrimination, cultural/literal genocide, etc for prolonged periods of time (read centuries). Due to this they’re also the ones that are among the most disenfranchised and still feeling the effects of generations of maltreatment by the dominant power in the US. Some of the means to address could likely lift all boats. Literal payouts could be given, but there’s other forms of reparations that could also help. 
 Either way, trying to reckon with what we’ve come from and what still effects us today is worth the struggle and mess IMHO. 
 

with luv,

BD 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nice questions, but what sort of program do you envision?  There are a great many things I would like to see done, but realism gets in the way.  We must deal with practical realities rather than pie in the sky.  The corporate elite will not allow certain things to be done.  We need to focus.  A great deal hangs in the balance, and there is no guarantee that we will prevail with even minor interim measures.  We cannot legislate morality.

I’m still at the stage of asking questions so as to manage my biases as I explore the topic and develop a vision; too soon for me to weigh in on "programs". Home appraisal seems to be a real issue warranting practical applications for improvement. I ascribe to the council “method” in business and political/economic settings as well as Church, but in this case my particular questions, informed by the OP, simply have not been answered by my interlocutors. ...and is a focus on not legislating morality really that sharp?

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, smac97 said:

"Access to affordable housing" isn't really about racial categories, but rather economic ones.  There are plenty of poor people of every racial category who lack "access to affordable housing."

This is an ongoing lie.

That is probably gonna earn me another three-day suspension. Worth it.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

I’m still at the stage of asking questions so as to manage my biases as I explore the topic and develop a vision; too soon for me to weigh in on "programs". Home appraisal seems to be a real issue warranting practical applications for improvement. I ascribe to the council “method” in business and political/economic settings as well as Church, but in this case my particular questions, informed by the OP, simply have not been answered by my interlocutors. ...and is a focus on not legislating morality really that sharp?

Too much money is at stake for the corporate elite, so that they will not consider many even reasonable adjustments to the socio-political landscape.  Even Democratic legislatures will not allow substantive change to the law -- law which has already been written at the behest of the rich folk who fund political campaigns.  You may have the best intentions in the world, but that may not be enough.  Moreover, most progressives have gone off the rails and have no idea how to improve society.  They are particularly diffuse and lacking in focus, thus squandering whatever money and good will they may have had.  The only time anything substantive gets done is in the midst of real crisis, and then only some of the time.  The outlook is bleak and sometimes only people of faith are able to continue to stand.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Too much money is at stake for the corporate elite, so that they will not consider many even reasonable adjustments to the socio-political landscape.  Even Democratic legislatures will not allow substantive change to the law -- law which has already been written at the behest of the rich folk who fund political campaigns.  You may have the best intentions in the world, but that may not be enough.  Moreover, most progressives have gone off the rails and have no idea how to improve society.  They are particularly diffuse and lacking in focus, thus squandering whatever money and good will they may have had.  The only time anything substantive gets done is in the midst of real crisis, and then only some of the time.  The outlook is bleak and sometimes only people of faith are able to continue to stand.

Don’t worry. It will get better.

 

 

 

 

Spoiler: It probably won’t actually

Edited March 27, 2022 by The Nehor

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

They were inadequate that’s for sure. But it’s more than african Americans have gotten for generations of policies and stances that broke family, damaged communities, and left every last one a second class citizen or not a citizen at all for centuries. 
personally I think it’s better to try and address it than to not. Even if it doesn’t go far enough. Currently it seems we vacillate between despair or denial. As in we deny the gravity of the problem and the extent it is still felt and effects entire communities today to one degree or another. Or we despair about the largeness of the problem assuming it can never be fully addressed. That we’re fated to be stuck with an inherently unequal society. Both just leave us in our current system and approach that never fully grapples with what we’ve done to peoples who are part of the fabric of the US and what is needed to move forward and to start addressing it, however small the first steps. 
 

as to who I would start with first, that’s easy: Native Americans and African Americans (specifically those descended from slavery). The reasons are simple. They’re the groups that have had the most severe historical policies of discrimination, cultural/literal genocide, etc for prolonged periods of time (read centuries). Due to this they’re also the ones that are among the most disenfranchised and still feeling the effects of generations of maltreatment by the dominant power in the US. Some of the means to address could likely lift all boats. Literal payouts could be given, but there’s other forms of reparations that could also help. 
 Either way, trying to reckon with what we’ve come from and what still effects us today is worth the struggle and mess IMHO. 
 

with luv,

BD 

We don't live in a world in which that is possible.  Instead, there are more slaves now in the world than at any time in history, and most slaves in history were not Black -- which remains true today.  Human trafficking is big business on an international scale.  Indeed, organizations dealing with refugees are now fearful that the millions of women and children from Ukraine are already attracting professional traffickers.  A huge opportunity to make money.  Billions.  We do not have the money or capacity to deal effectively with the problem, just as we are unable to deal with illegal drugs.  We are only good at two things:  Making lots of money for the corporate elite, and pretending that we will do better.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We don't live in a world in which that is possible.  Instead, there are more slaves now in the world than at any time in history, and most slaves in history were not Black -- which remains true today.  Human trafficking is big business on an international scale.  Indeed, organizations dealing with refugees are now fearful that the millions of women and children from Ukraine are already attracting professional traffickers.  A huge opportunity to make money.  Billions.  We do not have the money or capacity to deal effectively with the problem, just as we are unable to deal with illegal drugs.  We are only good at two things:  Making lots of money for the corporate elite, and pretending that we will do better.

Don’t be pessimistic. We have all kinds of other things we are good at:

We are also good at creating propaganda to convince people that what is good for the ultra wealthy is good for everyone. We are good at blaming victims for the consequences of their being victimized. We are good at discounting human suffering if we can benefit from it.

All kinds of useful skills.

[Robert F. Smith]

Leah Asmelash, “What a UC Berkeley legal battle says about college housing affordability nationwide,” CNN, March 27, 2022, online at  https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/uc-berkeley-legal-battle-says-070121676.html .

[Navidad]

I haven't read every post under this thread, so I don't have a point of view about what is being said. In that vein, here are my thoughts about racism:

1.  Racism is a symptom of a disease, not the disease itself. We can't cure the disease by treating the symptom.
2. Racism is a sin. It responds to being confessed and forgiven.
3. Only humans are racist; systems, institutions, and other organizations are not living beings; they only react to what humans do.
4. There are often more differences within races than between races.
5. Racism is a subset of rankism, onlyism, certainty/dogma, dehumanization, generalization, normalization, blind spots, and bias. Those are the issues we need to deal with to combat racism. They are the human and individual issues. They often become normalized in groups.
6. Intraracial racism exists and is often ideological in its causation.
7. I know of no current system of diversity training or race relations training that focuses on #5, therefore no system currently in place, especially in schools is or has been effective in combating racism, especially in schools.

Thanks for allowing me to opine.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Navidad

[Ragerunner]

Unequal Opportunity: Race and Education

“U.S. educational system is one of the most unequal in the industrialized world, and students routinely receive dramatically different learning opportunities based on their social status. In contrast to European and Asian nations that fund schools centrally and equally, the wealthiest 10 percent of U.S. school districts spend nearly 10 times more than the poorest 10 percent, and spending ratios of 3 to 1 are common within states. Despite stark differences in funding, teacher quality, curriculum, and class sizes, the prevailing view is that if students do not achieve, it is their own fault. If we are ever to get beyond the problem of the color line, we must confront and address these inequalities.”

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/unequal-opportunity-race-and-education/amp/

Why White School Districts Have So Much More Money

“$23 billion. According to EdBuild, that's how much more funding predominantly white school districts receive compared with districts that serve mostly students of color. 

"For every student enrolled, the average nonwhite school district receives $2,226 less than a white school district," the report says.”

"We have built a school funding system that is reliant on geography, and therefore the school funding system has inherited all of the historical ills of where we have forced and incentivized people to live," she says.”

“Researchers found that high-poverty districts serving mostly students of color receive about $1,600 less per student than the national average. That's while school districts that are predominately white and poor receive about $130 less.”

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/26/696794821/why-white-school-districts-have-so-much-more-money

[BlueDreams]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We don't live in a world in which that is possible.  Instead, there are more slaves now in the world than at any time in history, and most slaves in history were not Black -- which remains true today.  Human trafficking is big business on an international scale.  Indeed, organizations dealing with refugees are now fearful that the millions of women and children from Ukraine are already attracting professional traffickers.  A huge opportunity to make money.  Billions.  We do not have the money or capacity to deal effectively with the problem, just as we are unable to deal with illegal drugs.  We are only good at two things:  Making lots of money for the corporate elite, and pretending that we will do better.

This is kinda proving my point of the denial or despair pendulum swing people seem to get on. Let me make this very clear. I know we have big problems. Some big enough in the US that I’m wondering how to balance out my daughter’s lifelong education and broaden her world exposure to not fall into some of the trappings and problems in the US. I love where I live but I listen to the kids I have in my Spanish ward, I think of some of the things I’ve seen with some of my siblings, and I worry what she will come to see of herself. And compounded on that I see very clearly existential crises and a worsening national cohesion and growing disparities in wealth, infrastructure, and opportunities. To say I struggle with my American identity is a little bit of an understatement. I find myself not all that alone. 
i am by no means glowy in my assessment in the world that I’ve inherited. I am not glowy about the world my daughter has inherited. 
But I’m LDS for a reason…and a large part of that is faith in the message of the end times. Not in the way I’ve seen people fatalistically look at our problems and go “well it’s been prophesied this would happen” and then move on with their lives. No, in the call in the Book of Mormon over and over again toward equitable society as zion. To the call of us to make a better world and to hope for one. In the juxtaposition of, yes, a worsening evil, but also a growing good. And in my personal belief that the second coming is a covenant…one where we must do our part to bring the good and earnestly yearn towards creating Zion insomuch that it welcomes a return of Christ. I believe in the process of “pruning,” “gathering,” and “growing the good” gradually and carefully described in Jacob 5….not just in our “tree”I as a church…but in all of God’s children. I don’t believe in short fixes of utopia or quick shifts that will make all our problems go away. But I believe it can get better. I believe we have access to thing already to do so, but that this vacillation of despair and denial will keep us from it. I find goodness and truth in the story of African-Americans that garner this investment in a country. In the way that persistence and belief in a promised land pushed them to a better future…one where I feel safer to reside in. Because I would rather eat my left leg than go back in time to most of our nation’s history as a woman of color. I’m not insane enough to believe that their problems were just “different” from mine today, not worse. 
 

For example: modern slavery is a problem, slavery has entail every country and color of people…that still obfuscates the fact that for a large period of time colonialism brought with it an industrialized version of slavery that drained a ton of the African population forcefully into much the west/Americas. It also ignores that yes, there are more slaves in number but as a percentage there are fewer than in the past. In the past it was a legitimate practice, now it is a criminal practice borne often in corruption. And that in the US specifically, it became a backbone of industry and a cemented a racial caste system that led to generational slavery as the de facto form of existence. (Ps. Inherited slave status was nowhere near as big before this). 
 

it is a disrespect to the people who’ve come before who fought and died to change the moral stance of the world - and the US specifically - to give up or insist there’s nothing we can do but roll over and accept the abundant inequities of our day. I’m not here to dig my own proverbial grave of despair and denial. I’m here to build hope, hope in a better world, even one where god can come down and reign. So that’s what I’m going to do. One small step at a time. I will not solve all the world’s problems, my generation will likely not do so. But I’m going to pick up the tools to prune and grow and help my world, however small my part. I refuse to believe a message that leaves us no escape hatch to our own misery. To me the only way there isn’t is if we give in to the darkness of denial and despair. 

 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited March 27, 2022 by BlueDreams

[Robert F. Smith]

53 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

This is kinda proving my point of the denial or despair pendulum swing people seem to get on. Let me make this very clear. I know we have big problems. Some big enough in the US that I’m wondering how to balance out my daughter’s lifelong education and broaden her world exposure to not fall into some of the trappings and problems in the US. I love where I live but I listen to the kids I have in my Spanish ward, I think of some of the things I’ve seen with some of my siblings, and I worry what she will come to see of herself. And compounded on that I see very clearly existential crises and a worsening national cohesion and growing disparities in wealth, infrastructure, and opportunities. To say I struggle with my American identity is a little bit of an understatement. I find myself not all that alone. 
i am by no means glowy in my assessment in the world that I’ve inherited. I am not glowy about the world my daughter has inherited. 
But I’m LDS for a reason…and a large part of that is faith in the message of the end times. Not in the way I’ve seen people fatalistically look at our problems and go “well it’s been prophesied this would happen” and then move on with their lives. No, in the call in the Book of Mormon over and over again toward equitable society as zion. To the call of us to make a better world and to hope for one. In the juxtaposition of, yes, a worsening evil, but also a growing good. And in my personal belief that the second coming is a covenant…one where we must do our part to bring the good and earnestly yearn towards creating Zion insomuch that it welcomes a return of Christ. I believe in the process of “pruning,” “gathering,” and “growing the good” gradually and carefully described in Jacob 5….not just in our “tree”I as a church…but in all of God’s children. I don’t believe in short fixes of utopia or quick shifts that will make all our problems go away. But I believe it can get better. I believe we have access to thing already to do so, but that this vacillation of despair and denial will keep us from it. I find goodness and truth in the story of African-Americans that garner this investment in a country. In the way that persistence and belief in a promised land pushed them to a better future…one where I feel safer to reside in. Because I would rather eat my left leg than go back in time to most of our nation’s history as a woman of color. I’m not insane enough to believe that their problems were just “different” from mine today, not worse. 
 

For example: modern slavery is a problem, slavery has entail every country and color of people…that still obfuscates the fact that for a large period of time colonialism brought with it an industrialized version of slavery that drained a ton of the African population forcefully into much the west/Americas. It also ignores that yes, there are more slaves in number but as a percentage there are fewer than in the past. In the past it was a legitimate practice, now it is a criminal practice borne often in corruption. And that in the US specifically, it became a backbone of industry and a cemented a racial caste system that led to generational slavery as the de facto form of existence. (Ps. Inherited slave status was nowhere near as big before this). 
 

it is a disrespect to the people who’ve come before who fought and died to change the moral stance of the world - and the US specifically - to give up or insist there’s nothing we can do but roll over and accept the abundant inequities of our day. I’m not here to dig my own proverbial grave of despair and denial. I’m here to build hope, hope in a better world, even one where god can come down and reign. So that’s what I’m going to do. One small step at a time. I will not solve all the world’s problems, my generation will likely not do so. But I’m going to pick up the tools to prune and grow and help my world, however small my part. I refuse to believe a message that leaves us no escape hatch to our own misery. To me the only way there isn’t is if we give in to the darkness of denial and despair. 

 

with luv, 

BD 

Well said.  All the more reason to pick our battles and accept our severe limitations.  All the more reason to assess the true nature of the world out there so that we are less likely to be disappointed when our paltry efforts seem ineffectual.  It is especially difficult to get that message to the youth, who need greater patience and forbearance.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Too much money is at stake for the corporate elite, so that they will not consider many even reasonable adjustments to the socio-political landscape.  Even Democratic legislatures will not allow substantive change to the law -- law which has already been written at the behest of the rich folk who fund political campaigns.  You may have the best intentions in the world, but that may not be enough.  Moreover, most progressives have gone off the rails and have no idea how to improve society.  They are particularly diffuse and lacking in focus, thus squandering whatever money and good will they may have had.  The only time anything substantive gets done is in the midst of real crisis, and then only some of the time.  The outlook is bleak and sometimes only people of faith are able to continue to stand.

Of course when someone has good intentions for correcting home appraisal practices there will be pushback and challenges.

A focus on general interpretations of the economic, political, social and moral landscapes (a "general focus," which is an oxymoron to me) can interfere with focusing on finding strategies and tactics that work within that landscape. This is natural for us to do because it makes life easier, at least appear easier. So, I am trying to bridge the secular landscapes set forth in your reply with the religious principle expressed in the last sentence.

"For ye have the poor with you always [a generality], and whensoever ye will ye may do them good [a chosen focus]: but me ye have not always [He comes first]." (Mark 14:7). Given this is a forum that recognizes the benefits of the Restoration, we do have Him with us always if we allow for the companionship of the Holy Ghost. So that leaves the general landscape (however one wishes to view it) and divine permission to focus on specifics to do good.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well said.  All the more reason to pick our battles and accept our severe limitations.  All the more reason to assess the true nature of the world out there so that we are less likely to be disappointed when our paltry efforts seem ineffectual.  It is especially difficult to get that message to the youth, who need greater patience and forbearance.

That is is beauty of the world we live in. We each assess "the true nature of the world out there," which nature is different for different people and groups of those people (paging @mfbukowski  ). I think a good portion of the people share the belief that the youth need more patience and forbearance, and that they get the full range / spectrum of pessimistic and optimistic input about the world from their elders. Maybe they listen; hopefully more so, they assess.

I think a battle such as discriminatory home appraisal practices is often successfully fought locally, much as we saw in SLC with regards to the housing and employment protections for LGBTQ (back in 2009 already!). Sometimes these efforts gain statewide and national traction. We each make choices in how we spend our time and wherewithal, another reference to Mark 14:7.

Edited March 27, 2022 by CV75

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I haven't read every post under this thread, so I don't have a point of view about what is being said. In that vein, here are my thoughts about racism:

1.  Racism is a symptom of a disease, not the disease itself. We can't cure the disease by treating the symptom.
2. Racism is a sin. It responds it being confessed and forgiven.
3. Only humans are racist; systems, institutions, and other organizations are not living beings; they only react to what humans do.
4. There are often more differences within races than between races.
5. Racism is a subset of rankism, onlyism, certainty/dogma, dehumanization, generalization, normalization, blind spots, and bias. Those are the issues we need to deal with to combat racism. They are the human and individual issues. They often become normalized in groups.
6. Intraracial racism exists and is often ideological in its causation.
7. I know of no current system of diversity training or race relations training that focuses on #5, therefore no system currently in place, especially in schools is or has been effective in combating racism, especially in schools.

Thanks for allowing me to opine.

I feel it an honor when you opine.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Of course when someone has good intentions for correcting home appraisal practices there will be pushback and challenges.

A focus on general interpretations of the economic, political, social and moral landscapes (a "general focus," which is an oxymoron to me) can interfere with focusing on finding strategies and tactics that work within that landscape. This is natural for us to do because it makes life easier, at least appear easier. So, I am trying to bridge the secular landscapes set forth in your reply with the religious principle expressed in the last sentence.

"For ye have the poor with you always [a generality], and whensoever ye will ye may do them good [a chosen focus]: but me ye have not always [He comes first]." (Mark 14:7). Given this is a forum that recognizes the benefits of the Restoration, we do have Him with us always if we allow for the companionship of the Holy Ghost. So that leaves the general landscape (however one wishes to view it) and divine permission to focus on specifics to do good.

A lot of that depends upon the false gospel of progress -- the notion that things are getting and better better every day, in every way.  What happens in the real world is that we come here to Earth temporarily, face problems and are tested, and others also come and are tested in like manner.  No real improvement, but plenty of experience.  That is the nub of it.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A lot of that depends upon the false gospel of progress -- the notion that things are getting and better better every day, in every way.  What happens in the real world is that we come here to Earth temporarily, face problems and are tested, and others also come and are tested in like manner.  No real improvement, but plenty of experience.  That is the nub of it.

That is a partial nub. The full nub, as the saying goes, is “…all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.” We generally understand “good” to be the purposes of the Lord and His invitation to progress.

I think this applies to the experience of improving, ignoring or supporting discriminatory home appraisal policies and practices. The saints’ position-finding approach, as I understand it, mirrors the truth-finding approach, which is to consider (at least for a moment) whether or how each of these three options can be for our good, and not simply ignore or assert how any one of them is bad. That is the value of a discussion board for me; anything less is discuss-ting!

[The Nehor]

On 3/26/2022 at 1:22 PM, smac97 said:

"Access to affordable housing" isn't really about racial categories, but rather economic ones.  There are plenty of poor people of every racial category who lack "access to affordable housing."

I thought this video was interesting in terms of addressing racial disparities as pertaining to CRT:

A transcript:

Thanks,

-Smac

For an extreme example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_whites

Asian Americans do face difficulties but in most of the country they are not discriminated against at the level people of African and Hispanic descent endure. The people who created this know that very well and they keep this in their back pocket as if racism is an on or off switch and if you are racist you are equally racist to all other races. It doesn’t work that way.

Grouping all Asians into one group is especially problematic. People from Japan, Korea, China, Thailand, and the Philippines are not a massive shared culture.

The stereotype of the Asian immigrant who work themselves and their children to the bone to succeed is also inherently problematic. The white adult who looks at the Asian family working hard and then looks at a struggling Hispanic family and thinks they could do the same thing if they just tried is condescending. It also ignores that the white person judging them is also doing well without having to subject themselves to that workaholic and studyholic lifestyle. We need to reframe it as why, if this is desirable behavior, why whites people generally end up generally more successful than everyone else without it.

[The Nehor]

On 3/26/2022 at 5:33 PM, CV75 said:

How would eliminating consideration of racially-based aspects of individual and group involvement and contribution to the economy be a side issue to protecting/enforcing civil rights -- in this OP’s case, home appraisal practices and regulations; are you saying there are higher-priority racial barriers to address?

It was first necessary to get the written laws themselves to cease to be racist before there was any hope of adjusting for the many subtle and overt forms racism can be practiced in spite of legal equality. To a degree it has backfired. We can see here how some assume racism has been defeated because the law is not explicitly racist so racism is dead and anyone pointing out continuing problems is just stirring up trouble.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

That is a partial nub. The full nub, as the saying goes, is “…all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.” We generally understand “good” to be the purposes of the Lord and His invitation to progress.

I think this applies to the experience of improving, ignoring or supporting discriminatory home appraisal policies and practices. The saints’ position-finding approach, as I understand it, mirrors the truth-finding approach, which is to consider (at least for a moment) whether or how each of these three options can be for our good, and not simply ignore or assert how any one of them is bad. That is the value of a discussion board for me; anything less is discuss-ting!

This is a fallen world, but hope springs eternal.  Some of us joust at windmills, and we actually believe that we are making a difference.  We don't like the sad reality that all our efforts merely turn to dust.  We can't distinguish here from hereafter.  I smile at the exuberance of youth.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This is a fallen world, but hope springs eternal.  Some of us joust at windmills, and we actually believe that we are making a difference.  We don't like the sad reality that all our efforts merely turn to dust.  We can't distinguish here from hereafter.  I smile at the exuberance of youth.

“In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” Given the restoration of all things (a la Alma) I think this principle applies to the here and the hereafter, which is a continuum

“For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored…” (Alma 41: 15)

“If he has desired to do evil [or conversely, good] …behold, evil [good] shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.” (Alma 42:28)

I think that while it is easier to build honest, truthful, and virtuous systems than to repair broken ones, both endeavors, great and small, have merit. At least I’ve seen the Lord work both ways in this "Titanic" of a world. Fortunately for us, His light shines in the darkness so we can learn from experience, repair our mistakes and dust off the perfect frame in the restoration.

It seems you’ve had your share of youthful activity in this arena, other saints are simply building upon that -- there is your hope eternal!

[smac97]

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

For an extreme example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_whites

Asian Americans do face difficulties but in most of the country they are not discriminated against at the level people of African and Hispanic descent endure.

Hmm.

Quote

Majorities of Americans see at least some discrimination against Black, Hispanic and Asian people in the U.S.

BY ANDREW DANILLER

 

Large shares of Americans say there is at least some discrimination against several groups in the United States, including 80% who say there is a lot of or some discrimination against Black people, 76% who say this about Hispanic people and 70% who see discrimination against Asian people.

Nearly half of Americans (46%) say there is “a lot” of discrimination against Black people. About three-in-ten see a lot of discrimination against Hispanic people (30%) and Asian people (27%).

Americans are much less likely to say there is discrimination against White people: 40% say White people face at least some discrimination, and just 14% say White people face a lot of discrimination, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted March 1-7, 2021.

Hmm, Part 2:

Quote

Many Black and Asian Americans Say They Have Experienced Discrimination Amid the COVID-19 Outbreak

About four-in-ten U.S. adults say it has become more common for people to express racist views toward Asians since the pandemic began

BY NEIL G. RUIZ, JULIANA MENASCE HOROWITZ AND CHRISTINE TAMIR

The coronavirus outbreak continues to have far-reaching health and economic consequences for the American public. But for many, especially Black and Asian Americans, the effects extend beyond medical and financial concerns. About four-in-ten Black and Asian adults say people have acted as if they were uncomfortable around them because of their race or ethnicity since the beginning of the outbreak, and similar shares say they worry that other people might be suspicious of them if they wear a mask when out in public, according to a new Pew Research Center survey.

Black and Asian Americans are also more likely than their white and Hispanic counterparts to say they have been subject to slurs or jokes because of their race or ethnicity, but Asian adults are the most likely to say this has happened to them since the beginning of the coronavirus outbreak. About three-in-ten Asian adults (31%) say they have been subject to slurs or jokes because of their race or ethnicity since the outbreak began, compared with 21% of Black adults, 15% of Hispanic adults and 8% of white adults. This aligns with some reports of incidents of discrimination against Asian Americans since the virus outbreak first emerged in China and then started spreading in the United States.

At the same time, about half of Black Americans (51%) say they have heard expressions of support because of their race or ethnicity since the coronavirus outbreak; about three-in-ten Hispanic (29%) and Asian (28%) adults say the same. The survey was conducted during a time when demonstrations continued across the country to protest the death of George Floyd, a Black man killed while in Minneapolis police custody.

Seems like Asians Americans feel they are on the receiving end of a fair amount of racism.

The point, though, is that Asian Americans both A) face racism, and B) are not "white," and C) are therefore not the recipients of "white privilege," but D) are nevertheless doing far better than "white" people in many measurable terms.  In terms of median household income, "Asian Americans" leave "White Americans" in the dust:

Quote

The United States Census has race and ethnicity as defined by the Office of Management and Budget in 1997.^[1] The following median household income data are retrieved from American Community Survey 2018 1-year estimates. In this survey, the nationwide population was 327,167,439 in 2018.^[2]

S0201: ACS 1-Year Estimates Selected Population Profiles (2018)

Race and Ethnicity	Alone			Alone or in Combination with Other Races			Ref
	Code	Population	Median household income (US$)	Code	Population	Median household income (US$)
Asian Americans	012	18,415,198	87,243	031	22,137,269	85,897	[3]
White Americans	002	236,173,020	65,902	003	245,860,228	65,777	[4]
African Americans	004	41,617,764	43,892	005	46,261,485	43,892	[5]
Some other race	070	16,253,785	48,983	071	18,146,776	49,805	[6]
Hispanic or Latino (of any race)	—	—	—	400	59,763,631	51,404	[7]
Not Hispanic or Latino	—	—	—	450	267,403,808	64,025	[7]

Author Kenny Xu explains why the experience of Asian Americans contravenes the principal tenets of Critical Race Theory:

If your answer is "Well, Asian Americans are not as badly discriminated against, and they are 'Honorary Whites' anyway," I respond with, "Oh."

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The people who created this know that very well and they keep this in their back pocket as if racism is an on or off switch and if you are racist you are equally racist to all other races. It doesn’t work that way.

Not sure what you mean by "this."

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Grouping all Asians into one group is especially problematic.

As problematic as grouping all African-Americans into one group?  All Hispanic-Americans?

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

People from Japan, Korea, China, Thailand, and the Philippines are not a massive shared culture.

African-Americans also do not have a "massive shared culture."

Hispanic-Americans also do not have a "massive shared culture."

White Americans also do not have a "massive shared culture."

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The stereotype of the Asian immigrant who work themselves and their children to the bone to succeed is also inherently problematic.

Stereotypes are, by definition, oversimplified.

So putting stereotypes aside, why are so many Asian Americans succeeding so well in America?  Why do Harvard and many other colleges and universities openly discriminate against Asian Americans?  See, e.g., here:

Quote

Peter Arcidiacono, a Duke University economist testifying on behalf of the plaintiffs, concluded that Asian American applicants as a group performed stronger on objective measures of academic achievement and extracurricular activities.^[13] Despite this, they received a statistically significant penalty relative to white applicants in the personal score and overall score assigned by Harvard officials.^[13] As a result, the plaintiffs allege Asian American applicants have the lowest chance of admission of all racial groups in the United States despite scoring highest in all objective measurements.^[13] Arcidiacono testified that removing the personal score penalty of Asian applicants relative to white applicants would result in a 16% increase in the number of admitted Asian Americans.^[13]

Arcidiacono suggested that the applicant's race plays a significant role in admissions decisions.^[13] According to his testimony, if an Asian American applicant with certain characteristics (like scores, GPAs, and extracurricular activities, family background) would result in a 25% statistical likelihood of admission, the same applicant, if white, will have a 36% likelihood of admission.^[13] Hispanic and Black applicants with the same characteristics will have a 77% and 95% predicted chance of admission, respectively.^[13]

The plaintiffs also claim that Harvard's own Office of Institutional Research found a statistically significant penalty against Asian American applicants in an internal investigation in 2013, but had never made the findings public or acted on them.^[1] Plaintiffs and commentators have compared the treatment of Asians with the Jewish quota in place in the early 20th century, which used the allegedly “deficient” one-dimensional personalities of immigrant Jews and their alleged lack of leadership potential as the reason for excluding non-legacy Jews in elite universities.^[8][1]

Interesting, but messy, stuff.

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The white adult who looks at the Asian family working hard and then looks at a struggling Hispanic family and thinks they could do the same thing if they just tried is condescending.

"Condescending" can come in many shapes and sizes, I guess.

I think the issue is more about "rich and poor."  Socioeconomic status.  Quite a few factors are involved in this.  Race is one, but other factors include governmental actions/programs, cultural differences, family structure and emphasis, personal/individual decisionmaking, and more.

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It also ignores that the white person judging them is also doing well without having to subject themselves to that workaholic and studyholic lifestyle.

"The white person . . . {is} doing well."

What was it you were saying about "stereotypes" being "inherently problematic"?

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

We need to reframe it as why, if this is desirable behavior, why whites people generally end up generally more successful than everyone else without it.

"Everyon else"?  Are you sure?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 28, 2022 by smac97