Two Trib Articles Re: John Dehlin

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, rpn said:

The charity doesn't seem at all like a charity to me.  

So?  Are you a NFP Tax expert?  I can assure you there are plenty of 501(c)(3)'s that don't seem like a charity and that is because they don't have to be a charity to qualify. Are Unions charities?  Are hospitals that pay their chief medical office or CEO $8 million per year charities?  How about advocacy groups. Some people don't think tithing to the LDS Church is charity.  Guess what?  Under the tax rules all qualify as an NFP.

 

 

2 hours ago, rpn said:

 

 

Those who pay, get the content (like going to a story for groceries). 

YOu do not have to pay to listen to MS podcasts.  Some podcasters have payall. I listen to Sam Harris. You have to subscribe and pay. He has no sponsors.  Others have ads and sponsors.  MS podcasts do neither, likely due to their NFP status.

 

 

2 hours ago, rpn said:

 

 Yes, legitimate non-profits do pay their executive directors, and sometimes healthy sums.  

The Open Stories Foundation is a legitimate NFP.  At least IRS thinks so currently. As well as the state of Utah and that is who matters. Not you.

 

2 hours ago, rpn said:

  But Dehlin formed this "non-profit" and has always used it for his own personal good, and personally benefited (to a significant degree compared to those doing the work to provide the content and make it available at least in the past, haven't looked in 2 years) with increasing sums as it raises more money.

It is a full time gig for him.  If people did ont like  it they would not donate or listen. I donate. I don't mind him getting paid for it.  And I selectively listen.

 

 

2 hours ago, rpn said:

While there may be those willing to pay for someone (John Dehlin in particular) to trash the church in the guise of helping people transition or get over ???,

A fairly myopic and biased statement.  But I can testify that thousands on the MS FB page have claimed to have benefited from Dehlin's podcasting, Thrive and so on.  I personally have especially in the early days of my faith transition. 

 

2 hours ago, rpn said:

 

that doesn't fit within the group that our tax laws identify as meeting a common good, filling a hole unfilled by equivalent of public service. 

As noted above you are simply wrong about this.  MSF meets the requirements to be an NFP.  Just because you don't like it or Dehlin apparently does not mean the organization does not fill a need or common good, etc.

 

2 hours ago, rpn said:

 

 

 But then it is less than $300K at the moment.   So do we really want our government to allocate limited resources to challenging that  status?   Everyone who donates surely knows exactly where the money is going, and to whom. 

 

 Petition congress to change the tax law if you don't like it.  But just beecause it ticks you off does not make your comments right.  And yes I know where  the money goes, unlike when I gave tens of thousands per year to the LDS Church.  See John's financial info is available to the public.

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

He was at one point working with Dehlin. There is a hundred plus page thread on the other board when Rosebud reappeared that he actively posted in. No offense to those that like Dehlin, but he seems like a narcissist. Super personable and friendly to casual acquaintances but toxic and controlling the closer you get.   

I enjoyed the limited interactions I had with John but that was in 2008-2010,  We was helpful, supportive, etc. I actually was still a bishop near the end of my service time when I first contacted him.  He was kind and a listening ear. I think I was the  first serving bishop that ever reached out to him.  So I have a soft spot for him.  But I have heard as his popularity grow that he can tend to be narcissistic, etc.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

I knew Bill very well before he moved to St. George and began his podcast. I can assure you he was very sincere and had great affection for the church. There wasn’t a more dedicated bishop in our stake than him. He’s movement away from the church began with sincere desires to focus on grace and the atonement. My opinion is that his separation from the church stems from an unhealthy focus on negatives, but his sincerity shouldn’t be questioned. 

Or he just concluded based on the evidence that it is not what it claims. That is not necessarily an unhealthy focus on the negatives.  

[strappinglad]

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But I have heard as his popularity grow that he can tend to be narcissistic, etc.

" We have learned by sad experience ... " 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

My one of two issues with Dehlin making what he does is the reported history he has of making promises to compensate and then not living up to them.  Past threads have documented claims, but I don’t believe were able to establish it because most I have heard of were word of mouth.  Iirc he did switch by terminating people as employees and then hiring them as subcontractors to save on salaries…which not willing to provide health benefits for others when that was a huge part of his original compensation showing he knows the importance having that benefit…it is an insight into what is, I believe based on reports of those who have been close to him, his “me first and foremost” world.

 

This is not correct. There was a salary dispute between Dehlin and Rosebud.  Rosebud was taking over the community platform of MS that they were trying to do more of a decade or so ago. The took it to the board and the board opted to terminate them both and then hire them as independent contractors. That may have been Dehlin's suggesting but ultimately it was the boards decision.  Rosebud opted not to do this and the board fired her. I believe Natasha Helfer did a podcast on this.  If you are interested in knowing more about this you might want to listen to it.

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

My other issue with Dehlin making the money he does is his past criticism of income of higher up church leaders who as far as I can tell make half of what he does now.

Why does that bother you and do you really know what he Church leaders make?  Also Dehlin discloses what he makes and his NFPs finances.  Not so for the Church.

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Both of these could be resolved by him giving compensation as promised or at least providing the same sort of benefits so important to him to those who work for him and for him to apologize for criticizing church leaders’ compensations.  I am not suggesting he is getting paid too much.

Personally I think it rather silly to expect him to apologize to the Church leaders about their comp.  Apples and oranges.  Dehlin does not hide from his donors the finances of his organization or what he makes.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

As a side note, I find the structuring of the salary based on the Microsoft job interesting because iirc he made a big deal about how taking the MS job was a big financial sacrifice to him because he could never recover from the loss of giving up his Microsoft job.  I will try and find documentation of that.

Here it is:  https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/2021/04/28/questions-faithful-osf-subscriber-should-avoid/

He has said many times it was a financial sacrifice and it was for quite a number of years.  It has only been recently the Dehlin's salary has exceeded $200k.

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The took it to the board and the board opted to terminate them both and then hire them as independent contractors.

I have read several other people who said they were working for Dehlin when the OSF made the switch without consulting them. They also said they had word of mouth contracts for payment of services with Dehlin that fell through and they got a fraction of what was promised, if anything at all. One case Dehlin insisted it was volunteer and not employment.  My memory says it was a husband whose wife was a volunteer, but he most certainly was not. 
 

So I can’t prove it…might be quoted on the board somewhere, but I don’t recall there were even names for some of them, so as far as I am concerned it is unconfirmable. But linking that with the many accusations of mistreatment that had nothing to do with Rosebud as well as evidence I saw myself of mistreatment of volunteer moderators  of the MS message board and some other complaints, I think mistreatment of those doing work for him, whether volunteer or paid, is a possibility that probably should be looked into if one is considering donating. 
 

I think it also goes to credibility when he is claiming to be an ally to women and minority groups to see how he actually treats people he has power over. 
 

Added:  this is probably the thread with the most documentation iirc. Unfortunately I say in the OP I didn’t quote the complaints that were anonymous or vague, so I can’t put up everything I read that makes me think Dehlin was less than honorable in his dealings with volunteers and employees at least earlier in the OSF history. 
 

Summary here:  

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

 

He has said many times it was a financial sacrifice and it was for quite a number of years.  It has only been recently the Dehlin's salary has exceeded $200k.

Have you ever seen what his MS salary was?  Also if he was in much of a position to be promoted? (All I have is gossip from those claiming to know him back them, so am curious if they are right).

added:  according to this quote, it seems like it would have been around $100,000-$150,000 given he is saying “well over” $1,000,000 for ten years.  If so, he was making that much by 2014 iirc and twice as much now.

”All in all, I do not believe it a stretch to estimate that I have forgone well over $1 Million in compensation over the last ten years as the result of my decision to go back to graduate school, and to start Mormon Stories”.

 

https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/2015/02/08/john-dehlin-on-following-the-profit/

Edited March 1, 2022 by Calm

[ttribe]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

 He is a real Dehlin hater.  Obsessively so.

I'm aware of his history on that board. Be that as it may, I don't like it when my opinions are dismissed out of hand because I'm exmo, so I rather object to doing the same to him simply because of his past with Dehlin.

[Teancum]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have read several other people who said they were working for Dehlin when the OSF made the switch without consulting them. They also said they had word of mouth contracts for payment of services with Dehlin that fell through and they got a fraction of what was promised, if anything at all. One case Dehlin insisted it was volunteer and not employment.  My memory says it was a husband whose wife was a volunteer, but he most certainly was not. 

This is why I suggested the Helfer podcast.  She was there. She was on the board during the Rosebud issue.

 

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

So I can’t prove it…might be quoted on the board somewhere, but I don’t recall there were even names for some of them, so as far as I am concerned it is unconfirmable. But linking that with the many accusations of mistreatment that had nothing to do with Rosebud as well as evidence I saw myself of mistreatment of volunteer moderators  of the MS message board and some other complaints, I think mistreatment of those doing work for him, whether volunteer or paid, is a possibility that probably should be looked into if one is considering donating. 

I certainly do not know all that has gone on.  But would like to try to be objective.  But I also know there are those motivated to destroy someone's reputation for a variety of reasons, some inside the Church and some outside.

 

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

I think it also goes to credibility when he is claiming to be an ally to women and minority groups to see how he actually treats people he has power over. 

This seems like an over generalization to me again without evidence.

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

 

Added:  this is probably the thread with the most documentation iirc. Unfortunately I say in the OP I didn’t quote the complaints that were anonymous or vague, so I can’t put up everything I read that makes me think Dehlin was less than honorable in his dealings with volunteers and employees at least earlier in the OSF history. 
 

Summary here:  

 

 

[Teancum]

47 minutes ago, Calm said:

Have you ever seen what his MS salary was?  Also if he was in much of a position to be promoted? (All I have is gossip from those claiming to know him back them, so am curious if they are right).

No idea what he made at Microsoft.

[Teancum]

43 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I'm aware of his history on that board. Be that as it may, I don't like it when my opinions are dismissed out of hand because I'm exmo, so I rather object to doing the same to him simply because of his past with Dehlin.

Fair point.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

This is why I suggested the Helfer podcast.  She was there. She was on the board during the Rosebud issue

But I am not discussing Rosebud here…

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

But I am not discussing Rosebud here…

Ok

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

This seems like an over generalization to me again without evidence.

I said basically if one wants to see if someone is truly an ally to women and minorities, one should see how they treat those they have power over. Can you tell me how this is an over generalization?

And as far as evidence in regards to his treatment of women he is over or involved with in other ways, there is quite a bit of evidence, though perhaps you don’t find it credible (see linked thread)

[Teancum]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

I said basically if one wants to see if someone is truly an ally to women and minorities, one should see how they treat those they have power over. Can you tell me how this is an over generalization?

I guess I read it as conclusive.

 

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

And as far as evidence in regards to his treatment of women he is over or involved with in other ways, there is quite a bit of evidence, though perhaps you don’t find it credible (see linked thread)

I have not researched the many claims against him though I have heard some.  I have heard his own denial and defense. I have listened to others who know him, including women, defend him as well.  So who knows for sure.

[provoman]

On 2/28/2022 at 10:24 AM, Teancum said:

Ok.  I have no real skin in this. I don't object to his salary and I donate to his organization.  We could debate as to whether his organization should be an NFP.  Maybe it shouldn't be.

I don’t object to his salary either. I do recall that someone posted on reddit about Dehlin inviting people to accompany him to do interviews, and he essentially required that whoever went would his (Dehlin’s) travel expenses…if I recall correctly this occurred around the same time OSF made a public statement about Dehlin’s salary.

 

[juliann]

On 2/28/2022 at 7:54 PM, Teancum said:

I guess I read it as conclusive.

 

I have not researched the many claims against him though I have heard some.  I have heard his own denial and defense. I have listened to others who know him, including women, defend him as well.  So who knows for sure.

I am sincerely wondering how many women it takes to convince you because there is quite a list. To be frank, your defense here is exactly what was said to defend men like Cuomo. 

[Teancum]

35 minutes ago, juliann said:

I am sincerely wondering how many women it takes to convince you because there is quite a list.

Is there?  Can you provide it?

35 minutes ago, juliann said:

 

To be frank, your defense here is exactly what was said to defend men like Cuomo. 

To be frank your comment is ridiculous though not surprising given the it is coming from you.  You seem  quite militant on such things.  Feel free to provide evidence.  Yes this a a CFR.  And I am not defending Dehin  really.  I have not made a study of this lengthy list. I just do not know. And I can be persuaded.  By they way do you give credence to the women who support Dehlin and claim the accusations against him are specious. Or to you just believe the accusers. And what are they accusing him of anyway?  The only issue I really no much about is the Rosebud issue.  ANd FYI, I wanted Cuomo to resign over his bad behavior. And he was my Governor.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Teancum

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Is there?  Can you provide it?

To be frank your comment is ridiculous though not surprising given the it is coming from you.  You seem  quite militant on such things.  Feel free to provide evidence.  Yes this a a CFR.  And I am not defending Dehin  really.  I have not made a study of this lengthy list. I just do not know. And I can be persuaded.  By they way do you give credence to the women who support Dehlin and claim the accusations against him are specious. Or to you just believe the accusers. And what are they accusing him of anyway?  The only issue I really no much about is the Rosebud issue.  ANd FYI, I wanted Cuomo to resign over his bad behavior. And he was my Governor.

There is a list in the Trib article. See the OP and read the articles we are discussing. I’m rather saddened that you of all people are refusing to believe multiple women accusers and would pit them against other women to defend an abusive man. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

17 minutes ago, Teancum said:

s there?  Can you provide it?

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeYIUzC6LeUPlFcRZEgJeFqnkysgyn_pTgUtQYVJu1Nve-DAw/viewform

Helfer’s acknowledgement of the issues while also defending John:

Quote

Natasha Helfer — a therapist who was ousted from the church last year after repeatedly opposing its doctrines, policies and leaders on sexuality issues — describes Dehlin as part of what is “kind of a systematic issue.”

“What’s interesting about this is that I could say something about every single company or agency or nonprofit or for-profit organization in this country that has patriarchal issues,” said Helfer, who serves with Dehlin on the THRIVE board and is a former member of the Open Stories Foundation board. “Does John somehow magically not fit into that? Probably not.

“What I have seen John do over the years is be open to that feedback and critique and try to learn from it,” she added. “And he’s done more work than I’ve seen a lot of CEOs or leaders, especially in our church, be willing to do.”

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Teancum]

16 minutes ago, juliann said:

There is a list in the Trib article. See the OP and read the articles we are discussing. I’m rather saddened that you of all people are refusing to believe multiple women accusers and would pit them against other women to defend an abusive man. 

How you get that from what I wrote is beyond me. I did read the article. The only list I saw was the letter. I will go back and review. And I will say perhaps my tepid defense, because that is what it is, is misplaced.  If so I will change course.

[Teancum]

16 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeYIUzC6LeUPlFcRZEgJeFqnkysgyn_pTgUtQYVJu1Nve-DAw/viewform

Helfer’s acknowledgement of the issues while also defending John:

 

Thanks. THis is the letter. Are all those on the list claiming Dehling took advanatage of them personally?  Or is it a few and the others added their names as support?  And what specifically is the nature of the abuse?  What exactly does this mean?

 

Quote

He has used our talents, time, movements and reputation to bolster his brand and enrich himself. He takes advantage of vulnerable people in crisis, who are in legitimate need of help and community. When women come forward with critiques of his behavior or allegations of wrongdoing he retaliates by lashing out at them and attempting to publicly discredit them.

Is he sexually abusing them?  Is he professionally abusing them?  Did he not pay them?  Did he yell at them?  Did him make misogynistic remarks? I am not defending now but honestly curious.  What did he do to publicly discredit them?  If I am to believe them I think a bit more clarification is necessary.  Kate Kelly is not exactly innocent in her interactions with Dehlin either. So what is up?  Was it just a falling out and now they think Dehlin is a creep or is there something more?

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, Teancum said:

 

 

Is he sexually abusing them?  Is he professionally abusing them?  Did he not pay them?  Did he yell at them?  Did him make misogynistic remarks? I am not defending now but honestly curious.  What did he do to publicly discredit them?  If I am to believe them I think a bit more clarification is necessary.  Kate Kelly is not exactly innocent in her interactions with Dehlin either. So what is up?  Was it just a falling out and now they think Dehlin is a creep or is there something more?

Yes, Kelly's skirts were too short. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Thanks. THis is the letter. Are all those on the list claiming Dehling took advanatage of them personally?  Or is it a few and the others added their names as support?  And what specifically is the nature of the abuse?  What exactly does this mean?

 

Is he sexually abusing them?  Is he professionally abusing them?  Did he not pay them?  Did he yell at them?  Did him make misogynistic remarks? I am not defending now but honestly curious.  What did he do to publicly discredit them?  If I am to believe them I think a bit more clarification is necessary.  Kate Kelly is not exactly innocent in her interactions with Dehlin either. So what is up?  Was it just a falling out and now they think Dehlin is a creep or is there something more?

A sample from Kate Kelly:

”

I AM SICK & TIRED OF WOMEN DOING WORK FOR FREE. Especially Mormon women. We are expected to do everything for the “good of the cause” and to expect no compensation for our time and talent. I just talked to Kristy Money who does an amazing podcast called Mormon Transitions as part of Mormon Stories AND SHE DOESN’T MAKE A SINGLE CENT.

 

This is unacceptable. John Parkinson Dehlin if I want to specifically donate to Kristy Money or Gina Colvin’s podcasts & not to Mormon Stories generally, how do I do that? If there isn’t a way, there needs to be a way. Yesterday.

 

Lindsay Hansen Park and so many others do podcasts & work that cost so much time & they make pennies on the dollar to men.

 

And, no one better argue that they are less talented or get less downloads or I am SERIOUSLY GOING TO LOST IT.”

 

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

19 minutes ago, juliann said:

Yes, Kelly's skirts were too short. 

Source?