Fether Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 What is it exactly? Is teaching my children that Joseph Smith was a Prophet indoctrination into the church? Is that bad? Is consistently telling my children that hitting others is bad also indoctrination into west culture? Is that bad? Are both bad or just one? What makes one bad and the other good (assuming one is bad and one is good)? 1
Tacenda Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Fether said: What is it exactly? Is teaching my children that Joseph Smith was a Prophet indoctrination into the church? Is that bad? Is consistently telling my children that hitting others is bad also indoctrination into west culture? Is that bad? Are both bad or just one? What makes one bad and the other good (assuming one is bad and one is good)? I was indoctrinated as a child to believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and the BoM is the most correct book on earth. Through primary teachers, primary sharing time, young women leaders, Sunday school teachers. I had a built in faith, given to me to lean on others and their testimonies. It was a given that the church is true all my life until the day I found out JS actually did live polygamy (didn't begin with Brigham Young) and in ways that went against my sensibilities in a icky way. And then down the rabbit hole I went like Alice in Wonderland when I learned things that I'd never known right from the Fair Mormon website back in the day. I know it could be partly my fault because I didn't get into church history all that much and had parents that didn't keep books around with all the stuff I'm told I should have known. But I do believe I might still have my faith in the church being true had I not delved into many many podcasts that were on the opposite side of keeping the faith. Once that door opened my faith was totally on a rocky boat and it fell hard. But it's given me a way to find my own faith, so not always good to stay in the rocky boat. Time to find my own faith and figure out what I do believe in my core, not rely on others testimony or what I've been told I had to believe.
Fether Posted February 7, 2022 Author Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I was indoctrinated as a child to believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and the BoM is the most correct book on earth. Through primary teachers, primary sharing time, young women leaders, Sunday school teachers. I had a built in faith, given to me to lean on others and their testimonies. It was a given that the church is true all my life until the day I found out JS actually did live polygamy (didn't begin with Brigham Young) and in ways that went against my sensibilities in a icky way. And then down the rabbit hole I went like Alice in Wonderland when I learned things that I'd never known right from the Fair Mormon website back in the day. I know it could be partly my fault because I didn't get into church history all that much and had parents that didn't keep books around with all the stuff I'm told I should have known. But I do believe I might still have my faith in the church being true had I not delved into many many podcasts that were on the opposite side of keeping the faith. Once that door opened my faith was totally on a rocky boat and it fell hard. But it's given me a way to find my own faith, so not always good to stay in the rocky boat. Time to find my own faith and figure out what I do believe in my core, not rely on others testimony or what I've been told I had to believe. Were you indoctrinated into the ways of western culture that men should not beat women? Or that chopping the hand off of a thief is not a humane way of dealing with theft? Im not trying to make a point, I’m just trying to understand what people mean by indoctrination and how far that definition spans Edited February 7, 2022 by Fether
rchorse Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 Teaching any doctrine is, by definition, indoctrination. It just sounds scary and bad because the word is normally only used in a negative and pejorative way. Sending your child to school, any school, is sending them off to be indoctrinated. Teaching your child anything at home is indoctrination. Letting your children watch TV, read books, or play video games is exposing them to indoctrination. 3
Tacenda Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, Fether said: We’re you indoctrinated into the ways of western culture that men should not beat women? Or that chopping the hand off of a thief is not a humane way of dealing with theft? Im not trying to make a point, I’m just trying to understand what people mean by indoctrination and how far that definition spans Telling someone it's true no matter what and pounding it in their heads, starting with testimonies and primary songs for one. And to never doubt and keep on working on our testimonies, or they may go away. Which I struggled every time I was told to work on my testimony, because I never thought there was another way, it was the only way. I am not the brightest crayon in the box though. Indoctrination: noun the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. "I would never subject children to religious indoctrination" ARCHAIC teaching; instruction. "methods that were approved for indoctrination in divinity"
Fether Posted February 7, 2022 Author Posted February 7, 2022 17 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Telling someone it's true no matter what and pounding it in their heads, starting with testimonies and primary songs for one. And to never doubt and keep on working on our testimonies, or they may go away. Which I struggled every time I was told to work on my testimony, because I never thought there was another way, it was the only way. I am not the brightest crayon in the box though. Indoctrination: noun the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. "I would never subject children to religious indoctrination" ARCHAIC teaching; instruction. "methods that were approved for indoctrination in divinity" Thought experiment. Let’s pretend for a second that the church is entirely what it claims to be and the doctrine it professes is entirely true. Are they then justified in teaching those primary songs to children and encouraging the growth of testimony at early ages? If not, what would be the appropriate approach? 2
Popular Post SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 7, 2022 Popular Post Posted February 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Fether said: What is it exactly? Is teaching my children that Joseph Smith was a Prophet indoctrination into the church? Is that bad? Is consistently telling my children that hitting others is bad also indoctrination into west culture? Is that bad? Are both bad or just one? What makes one bad and the other good (assuming one is bad and one is good)? It’s dogma that is wrong. When we teach our kids truths that can’t be questioned and examined that’s a problem. There is something wrong when you have to have articles like this that split hairs between “questioning” and “asking questions”: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2012/05/any-questions?lang=eng 5
Tacenda Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Fether said: Thought experiment. Let’s pretend for a second that the church is entirely what it claims to be and the doctrine it professes is entirely true. Are they then justified in teaching those primary songs to children and encouraging the growth of testimony at early ages? If not, what would be the appropriate approach? Good question, thinking.....hmmm.....maybe say we don't know for a fact, we're going by faith. Saying it's up to you to find your truth/belief and learn from a variety of faith traditions. And pick which one fits best with your intuition/revelation, but then again, getting revelation in the LDS church requires prayer usually, hmmm. But is there a difference with other faith traditions when LDS are told to pray to know if the BoM is true. I've not ever heard non LDS Christians being told to pray if the Bible is true. But maybe our friends on this board can answer this. In this article, it doesn't mention praying to know if the Bible is true, from what I read. https://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/how-do-we-know-the-bible-is-true-2/
Fether Posted February 7, 2022 Author Posted February 7, 2022 20 minutes ago, Tacenda said: maybe say we don't know for a fact, we're going by faith For the sake of the thought experiment, this doesn’t fit. The church claims to be the truth and must act with the assumption that it is. Now assuming it is true, is it justified in its indoctrination practices? If we weren’t sure as to whether what was true and what wasn’t, doing any sort of indoctrinating would be inappropriate and the church would simply be a center of philosophical thought… which is not what it claims to be. 23 minutes ago, Tacenda said: But is there a difference with other faith traditions when LDS are told to pray to know if the BoM is true. I've not ever heard non LDS Christians being told to pray if the Bible is true. But maybe our friends on this board can answer this. I served my mission in Kentucky where everyone and their dog was christen. Churches in every corner. We would commonly ask those we taught to “pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon was his word of God”. An unusually common response to the more stalwart christens was “oh… I don’t question God, I just obey”. Not saying that Christianity in general teaches that you ought to blindly obey without any expectation of spiritual confirmation, but it is enough of a cultural belief that I was ready for that response every time we asked someone to pray about the Book of Mormon. 1
Tacenda Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 Have you watched the Disney movie, "Encanto"? Well, there is a song in the movie that explains a lot. And maybe what's needed for many in their faith walk. https://lyricstranslate.com/en/dos-oruguitas-two-little-caterpillars.html?fbclid=IwAR2BkFze7B7IQKru-TBy3IEZw2QLoasCqAkDZg3mYj_ZxEVnzq2cC5sQt1E Two little caterpillars in love Spend their nights and early mornings together2 Full of hunger they keep walking And navigating a world that changes and keeps changing And navigating a world that changes and keeps changing Two caterpillars stop the wind While they embrace with feeling They keep growing, not knowing when to search for some retreat, times keep changing They are inseparable and times keep changing Ay, little caterpillars, don't hold on anymore You must grow apart and return, you'll keep moving forwards Miracles come, chrysalises come You must leave and build your own future Ay, little caterpillars, don't hold on anymore You must grow apart and return, you'll keep moving forwards Miracles come, chrysalises come You must leave and build your own future Two disoriented caterpillars In two well-wrapped cocoons With new dreams, now all that's missing is To do what's necessary in a world that keeps changing Taking down its walls, there comes our miracle Our miracle, our miracle Ay, butterflies, don't hold on anymore You must grow apart and return, you'll keep moving forwards There are already miracles, chrysalises breaking open You must fly, you must find your own future Ay, butterflies, don't hold on anymore You must grow apart and return, you'll keep moving forwards There are already miracles, chrysalises breaking open You must fly, you must find your own future Ay, butterflies, don't hold on anymore You must grow apart and return, you'll keep moving forwards There are already miracles, chrysalises breaking open You must fly, you must find your own future
Fether Posted February 7, 2022 Author Posted February 7, 2022 28 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: It’s dogma that is wrong. When we teach our kids truths that can’t be questioned and examined that’s a problem. There is something wrong when you have to have articles like this that split hairs between “questioning” and “asking questions”: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2012/05/any-questions?lang=eng I agree completely. I’m a natural skeptic and my testimony has been strengthened over and over again by aggressively seeking answers to questions. In high school, I got in a few arguments with my seminary teachers over different issues. I eventually got answers to those questions and I thank my aggressive nature for that. It seems to be a matter of intellectual honesty, in which article like this seem to be lacking in. There have been many similar talks and articles over the years that seem to suggest “ignore all sources that challenge your faith and only read what we give you”. Ill admit that I have met many people that aren’t capable of reading or hearing critical arguments against the church without spiraling into a faith crisis. They seem so sensitive to such ideas that bringing up the concept of an early prophet may have confused racist tendencies of their time with doctrine will send them straight to the bishop asking for their names to be removed from the church. For such people (assuming the church is true), such articles may be of benefit. Some people just aren’t capable of critical thought and generally look for others to indoctrinate them. I’ve seen this on all sides of every ideological aisle. There is a personality type that just goes with whatever social pull they deem strongest. 1
Fether Posted February 7, 2022 Author Posted February 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: maybe what's needed for many in their faith walk. Just read it and I enjoyed it. I think this is true. I know a lady who left the church because she couldnt stand the shame she felt every day of her life as she tried to live up to what she felt the expectation was. I was in the same ward as her and heard the same messages and never felt anything close to the anguish she felt. A little unorthodox view I have that may change in the future, but I believe whole heartedly that there are just as many, if not more, people outside the church that will be exalted as there are in. If not, then why do we do work for the dead if the dead rise not at all? 2
Tacenda Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Fether said: I agree completely. I’m a natural skeptic and my testimony has been strengthened over and over again by aggressively seeking answers to questions. In high school, I got in a few arguments with my seminary teachers over different issues. I eventually got answers to those questions and I thank my aggressive nature for that. It seems to be a matter of intellectual honesty, in which article like this seem to be lacking in. There have been many similar talks and articles over the years that seem to suggest “ignore all sources that challenge your faith and only read what we give you”. Ill admit that I have met many people that aren’t capable of reading or hearing critical arguments against the church without spiraling into a faith crisis. They seem so sensitive to such ideas that bringing up the concept of an early prophet may have confused racist tendencies of their time with doctrine will send them straight to the bishop asking for their names to be removed from the church. For such people (assuming the church is true), such articles may be of benefit. Some people just aren’t capable of critical thought and generally look for others to indoctrinate them. I’ve seen this on all sides of every ideological aisle. There is a personality type that just goes with whatever social pull they deem strongest. My faith crisis began in 2005-06-ish. I've been at this for that long, still a member on record and still wearing my "g's" and still watch Sacrament on zoom, and for all those years but 3 going on 4, I was active weekly. I'm not the person that had my records removed immediately...I'm still on the merry go round. So I wonder what category I'm in, haha.
Fether Posted February 7, 2022 Author Posted February 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: My faith crisis began in 2005-06-ish. I've been at this for that long, still a member on record and still wearing my "g's" and still watch Sacrament on zoom, and for all those years but 3 going on 4, I was active weekly. I'm not the person that had my records removed immediately...I'm still on the merry go round. So I wonder what category I'm in, haha. Any attempt, even my own, to categorize people into camps of thinking always fails when applied to a specific person. I find that we are all changing so much, even day to day, that categorizing people in anyway will be met with embarrassment or insult. We use (or at least should) categories to try and understand ways of thought. You are simply in @Tacendas category in which you can relate with many other catalogues, specific or broad. 3
Saint Bonaventure Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 57 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Good question, thinking.....hmmm.....maybe say we don't know for a fact, we're going by faith. Saying it's up to you to find your truth/belief and learn from a variety of faith traditions. And pick which one fits best with your intuition/revelation, but then again, getting revelation in the LDS church requires prayer usually, hmmm. But is there a difference with other faith traditions when LDS are told to pray to know if the BoM is true. I've not ever heard non LDS Christians being told to pray if the Bible is true. But maybe our friends on this board can answer this. In this article, it doesn't mention praying to know if the Bible is true, from what I read. https://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/how-do-we-know-the-bible-is-true-2/ My catechesis in this area is quite different from an LDS approach, I think. My observation of LDS family and on this board is that you all put a strong emphasis on feeling the Holy Spirit. I recall an analogy that might be helpful: Reason, faith, and feeling are all tied together and are walking along the top of a wall (a straight and narrow one!). Reason needs to lead, faith needs to keep watching reason, and feeling needs to keep watching faith . If faith turns and looks back to watch feeling, all three will fall off the wall.
bluebell Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 26 minutes ago, Saint Bonaventure said: My catechesis in this area is quite different from an LDS approach, I think. My observation of LDS family and on this board is that you all put a strong emphasis on feeling the Holy Spirit. I recall an analogy that might be helpful: Reason, faith, and feeling are all tied together and are walking along the top of a wall (a straight and narrow one!). Reason needs to lead, faith needs to keep watching reason, and feeling needs to keep watching faith . If faith turns and looks back to watch feeling, all three will fall off the wall. For us, "feelings" are The Holy Ghost. So what I'm hearing you saying is that if faith turns and looks back to watch the Holy Ghost, all three will fall off the wall. Is that what you mean? If it's not, then you probably aren't understanding the concept of relying on feelings the same way that we understand it. 1
CA Steve Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Fether said: Thought experiment. Let’s pretend for a second that the church is entirely what it claims to be and the doctrine it professes is entirely true. Are they then justified in teaching those primary songs to children and encouraging the growth of testimony at early ages? If not, what would be the appropriate approach? Not according to LDS doctrine. The cornerstone of LDS doctrine is the belief that this estate is a place where we will be tested. Unless you are confronted with opposition you cannot be tested, so what we should teach is the ability discern the "truth" instead of just telling children what it is. 1
Fether Posted February 7, 2022 Author Posted February 7, 2022 34 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Not according to LDS doctrine. The cornerstone of LDS doctrine is the belief that this estate is a place where we will be tested. Unless you are confronted with opposition you cannot be tested, so what we should teach is the ability discern the "truth" instead of just telling children what it is. Interesting thought. So do you think a better approach would be for the church to teach all philosophies, but state which one it believes to be true?
bluebell Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 39 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Not according to LDS doctrine. The cornerstone of LDS doctrine is the belief that this estate is a place where we will be tested. Unless you are confronted with opposition you cannot be tested, so what we should teach is the ability discern the "truth" instead of just telling children what it is. That's doesn't seem to be how God handled the idea of opposition in all things, so I don't know that that is a valid way to interpret that how it should work. 1
Saint Bonaventure Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 48 minutes ago, bluebell said: For us, "feelings" are The Holy Ghost. So what I'm hearing you saying is that if faith turns and looks back to watch the Holy Ghost, all three will fall off the wall. Is that what you mean? If it's not, then you probably aren't understanding the concept of relying on feelings the same way that we understand it. Perhaps we do have different notions of the Holy Spirit (and that can make this exchange very interesting!). I consider the Holy Spirt both 1) a person (implied, not just a force) and 2) God. I think the passages regarding the Holy Spirit in John 14-16 (the paraclete passages) are crucial and that their indication that the Holy Spirit "teaches" and "reminds" indicates that the Holy Spirit directly engages reason. I'd conclude from the Acts 2 passage that the Holy Spirit also unifies. I'm not being comprehensive here, but those are crucial to my perspective. Are feelings involved? Sure, but in my view the reason-faith-feelings relationship holds. If feelings are in front, I'm concerned about the subjectivity of feelings, and that the human heart can deceive (somewhere in Jeremiah, I forget where).
Nacho2dope Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: My faith crisis began in 2005-06-ish. I've been at this for that long, still a member on record and still wearing my "g's" and still watch Sacrament on zoom, and for all those years but 3 going on 4, I was active weekly. I'm not the person that had my records removed immediately...I'm still on the merry go round. So I wonder what category I'm in, haha. If you feel like sharing, what would end this crisis for you? What are you needing or wanting the Church to do? That is a long time to be in crisis and I commend you for hanging in there. 1
bluebell Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, Saint Bonaventure said: Perhaps we do have different notions of the Holy Spirit (and that can make this exchange very interesting!). I consider the Holy Spirt both 1) a person (implied, not just a force) and 2) God. I think the passages regarding the Holy Spirit in John 14-16 (the paraclete passages) are crucial and that their indication that the Holy Spirit "teaches" and "reminds" indicates that the Holy Spirit directly engages reason. I'd conclude from the Acts 2 passage that the Holy Spirit also unifies. I'm not being comprehensive here, but those are crucial to my perspective. Are feelings involved? Sure, but in my view the reason-faith-feelings relationship holds. If feelings are in front, I'm concerned about the subjectivity of feelings, and that the human heart can deceive (somewhere in Jeremiah, I forget where). There isn't really anything in what you said that I disagree with. I've also found that a lot of people don't really understand what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints mean when we talk about "feelings" and the Holy Ghost. They think we are talking about feeling happy, or sad, or whatever but that's not a great analogy. One of our apostles recently taught that to learn spiritual truth we must use both reason and faith. The feelings from the Holy Ghost would be included in the faith part of that equation. They would not have their own line or part.
Alexi Nakatology Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 I think that maybe the negative sense of indoctrination “exactly” is that any idea provided without the possibility of another context limits our understanding of ourselves Context is what helps the distinction I think you’re looking for 1
Tacenda Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 43 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said: If you feel like sharing, what would end this crisis for you? What are you needing or wanting the Church to do? That is a long time to be in crisis and I commend you for hanging in there. I think I might derail if I get into it. But appreciate your asking.
James 1 5 Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Fether said: Thought experiment. Let’s pretend for a second that the church is entirely what it claims to be and the doctrine it professes is entirely true. Are they then justified in teaching those primary songs to children and encouraging the growth of testimony at early ages? If not, what would be the appropriate approach? As a Father I tried and still try to avoid telling my children what they should believe. And I generally lived and still live by the same principle with other people too. I tell others what I believe and what I think and what I know, and sometimes I will also tell others why and how I formed by beliefs and knowledge, but still I try to avoid telling others what they should believe. I don't want others to rely on me as their source of ultimate truth. I believe only God is qualified to be in that position as our ultimate teacher of all that is good and true. Edited February 7, 2022 by James 1 5
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