The Book Sealed With Seven Seals

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is all I am doing.  They can ruin peoples lives and faith and need to be pushed out of the fold.  He literally is looking to steal the flock away from current leadership.  He says that I, and the rest of church membership, are in an "awful state' and that the brethren that I sustain need to be impeached and imposters in league with other deceivers trying to steal our liberty.  He is showing up swinging and needs to be directed to the door. 

I have been wondering if this is appropriate, to be less challenging.  I would certainly be openly critical if he kept pushing his Covid beliefs from what I saw in a post or two.  Or if he came into church to share his ideas on authority.
 

My personal view is that those on this board are skeptical enough of different religious ideas that they don’t already hold, that with this type of intellectual interaction and with the presence of critics of his idea that it is less flock of sheep and more pack of guard dogs.  But my interest in different ways of thinking may be blinding me to potential harm.  I see the board as a library of ideas and experiences and round table discussion and debate, but it isn’t just those who posting who are being exposed to his ideas.

It is easier in the field of medicine for me to draw lines of what is harmful and what isn’t. I don’t feel a threat from him I am guessing because I myself am somewhat interested, but not attracted by what he shares.  It feels overly complicated and obtuse, not plain and precious.  I don’t mind at all complicated world building, the mechanics side of life, spiritual or physical and if there is elegance there…fascinated.  I engage in plenty of that myself.  But the core message of “how do I live my life to find truth and joy”… that gospel core should be plain and precious.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Calm

[Chum]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

  There are people over on LDS freedom forum who already have one foot (in some cases 2) out the door because of the church's position on covid vaccines and cries about liberty. 

I can't recall another time where a significant number of members embraced a mistrust of Church leadership, in response to 1P/Q12 embracing a public policy (absent a change in Church teachings).

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have been wondering if this is appropriate, to be less challenging.

My personal view is that those on this board are skeptical enough of different religious ideas that they don’t already hold

When he first arrived, I was surprised by what felt like an unskeptical engagement with his ideas.

Skepticism did eventually show up and the vibe now feels more like competing reactions, which I think is healthy.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Chum said:

I can't recall another time where a significant number of members embraced a mistrust of Church leadership, in response to 1P/Q12 embracing a public policy (absent a change in Church teachings).

Not in modern time, it seems like.  I wonder how close this level of mistrust is to when plural marriage was introduced and then discontinued.  But then we are kind of in a bubble here and the news and online communities may be visually inflating numbers…or it may be helping mistrust spread by normalizing it.  

[Olmec Donald]

40 minutes ago, pogi said:

You are a good man.

 That's what my parole officer says too.

31 minutes ago, Chum said:

I've been enjoying the spirit he brings to these discussions.

Seriously, I thank you both.  You Mormons are darn good people, I really mean that, whatever side of whatever issue you individually come down on.  I see that all over this board.  "By their fruits ye shall know them". 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Chum said:

When he first arrived, I was surprised by what felt like an unskeptical engagement with his ideas.

He has been one of the few self proclaimed prophets who have come on the board who have been willing to answer questions rather than just plaster their ideas up and then ignore any response.  I think that was likely why I and maybe others were willing to give him time and space to share his ideas.  He also wasn’t playing the martyr anymore than the rest of us do from time to time, so that was a plus.  Those who open the discussion stating they will be rejected and banned…not a good sign for willingness to discuss their ideas.  
 

I admit I am not as interested at this point because while he says his ideas are new and unique, while there are some details and terminology I haven’t seen before, the overall construction feels very familiar and not in a positive way.  Since likely much of that is my bias, I have been making an effort to give him enough opportunity to share before I turn away.  He also seems like a nice guy, not abusive of others like so many claiming to be prophets or teachers are, so big plus there.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Calm

[Chum]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

He has been one of the few self proclaimed prophets who have come on the board who have been willing to answer questions rather than just plaster their ideas up and then ignore any response.  I think that was likely why I and maybe others were willing to give him time and space to share his ideas.  He also wasn’t playing the martyr anymore than the rest of us do from time to time, so that was a plus.  Those who open the discussion stating they will be rejected and banned…not a good sign for willingness to discuss their ideas.  

After snooping thru his public posts (something I don't routinely do), I get the impression he is sincere, kind to individuals and hostile to power. I can get behind those principles, though his mix is curious and a bit concerning to me.

That said, I'd pay a dollar for a livestream of his holiday dinner conversations.

[Chum]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

But then we are kind of in a bubble here and the news and online communities may be visually inflating numbers

News that starts out as '10k to leave if vaccines mandated' then the actual numbers turn out to be a few doz - generally the same number of loons you'd find in any entity of that size.

[Amulek]

12 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

There are reasons other than “ego trip” why he might be leading off with claims that are very hard to believe.

Sure, but all of the reasons that spring to my mind immediately are...less than charitable. And possibly violate the board rules against psychoanalyzing.  

 

Quote

I'll admit that my first reaction was very judgmental and I almost posted some really snarky stuff, but Jesus didn't say “a new commandment I give unto you, that ye judge one another.” Maybe I can disagree with Shiloh without being disagreeable. Maybe he is my brother even if it is not at all apparent from the outside. Maybe I can treat Shiloh better than the people who had a negative opinion of Joseph Smith's message treated him.

If the people who held negative opinions about Joseph Smith had been content to merely ignore him, the church would likely be headquartered in the midwest to this day.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that master Shiloh be pulled from his home and tarred & feathered.

But that doesn't mean that we have to indulge him or provide a sounding board for him to practice his false teachings either.

 

[Chum]

8 minutes ago, Amulek said:

12 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

There are reasons other than “ego trip” why he might be leading off with claims that are very hard to believe.

Sure, but all of the reasons that spring to my mind immediately are...less than charitable.

To me, his beliefs clearly indicate an enormous ego - which I feel is neutral. For context, I'd say charisma is a far riskier attribute than ego.

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

There are plenty of apostates who participate on this forum,

The bolded word is such an ugly word.

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

found secular prophets to follow,

What secular prophets do you think us vile apostates 😝have found to follow.  Seems like a pretty broad brush.  And in what was do you think the vile apostates follow such secular prophet whatever that is.

[Chum]

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

18 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

There are plenty of apostates who participate on this forum,

The bolded word is such an ugly word.

I like infidel. After Sept 11, I wanted to get that on a t-shirt, in Ford script.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I am not terribly surprised by what people are gullible to these days.  False teachers/prophets need to be exposed.  That is all I am doing.  They can ruin peoples lives and faith and need to be pushed out of the fold.  He literally is looking to steal the flock away from current leadership.  He says that I, and the rest of church membership, are in an "awful state' and that the brethren that I sustain need to be impeached and imposters in league with other deceivers trying to steal our liberty.  He is showing up swinging and needs to be directed to the door. 

 

Me too!  That is why I reject all those who claim God tells them what all the rest of humanity should be doing. They are all false teachers and prophets. Including the LDS leaders.  See you just need to take it one step further.  Why are your prophets any more accurate than anyone else's?  Because you want to believe they are prophets. It is all about faith when it comes to such things and those who we are comfortable placing faith in.

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The bolded word is such an ugly word.

For some, others see it in a clinical sense without the baggage.  I see it as simply someone who once believed who now doesn’t.  But I understand the baggage and therefore am mostly careful when using.  But sometimes it seems the best word to fit when it goes beyond public disbelief.

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Chum said:

I like infidel. After Sept 11, I wanted to get that on a t-shirt, in Ford script.

Too bad “f”isn’t the first letter as that little curl in the capital F is perfect.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Chum said:

I've been enjoying the spirit he brings to these discussions.

You mean that little green man on his shoulder??

[Chum]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You mean that little green man on his shoulder??

That LGM has a name you know. Say it! SAY HIS NAME!

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

For some, others see it in a clinical sense without the baggage.  I see it as simply someone who once believed who now doesn’t.  But I understand the baggage and therefore am mostly careful when using.  But sometimes it seems the best word to fit when it goes beyond public disbelief.

The definition under LDS terminology makes it a very ugly word.  It is a label like the scarlet letter.  It is used in such a way to scare active members away from the leave taker.  It has baggage in lDS vernacular and culture.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The definition under LDS terminology makes it a very ugly word.  It is a label like the scarlet letter.  It is used in such a way to scare active members away from the leave taker.  It has baggage in lDS vernacular and culture.

I want to go on record as disagreeing that “turning away from the principles of the gospel” is inherently ugly, but it is all interpretation, so I don’t see a point in arguing with you.  Maybe I have spent too much time hanging out with people who have been labeled as such and I don’t find much different about them except they have left the church.  I do not equate apostate with anti-Mormon.

Total off topic, I don’t remember this, wonder if new or if I just missed it.

Quote

Latter-day Saints believe that, through the priesthood conferred to Joseph Smith by the ministering of angels, the authority to act in God’s name was brought back to the earth. This is “restored,” not “reformed,” Christianity. Their belief in a restored Christianity helps explain why most Latter-day Saint converts, from the 1830s to the present, converted from other Christian denominations. None of these converts thought they were leaving Christianity; they are simply grateful to learn about, and become part of, the restored Church of Jesus Christ, which they believe offers a more complete and rich Christian Church spiritually, organizationally, and doctrinally.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/apostasy?lang=eng

Edited November 16, 2021 by Calm

[ProphetShiloh]

6 hours ago, Chum said:

Speaking pragmatically, I think the most remarkable, possible outcome of Shiloh's efforts would be another Church-flavored splinter group.

To that end, I'd want to know what sets his group apart from other splinter groups. What steps would be in place to insure his successors' flocks were truly happy.  Even the truest gospel can't nurture a spirit of genuine joy in an atmosphere of toxic micromanagement.

I invite you to acquaint yourselves with the revelations the Lord has given me as they most definitely address the topic of micromanagement.

I have had to go through a considerable amount of learning experiences so that I understand for myself how important individual sovereignty is.  This is the core and focus of the Gospel is to raise humanity up to a level of enlightenment so that we don't need or desire or tolerate any encroachments against our individual sovereignty.

[ProphetShiloh]

I encourage people to start new discussion threads if your posts in this thread are not keeping with the OP (original post).

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 minutes ago, ProphetShiloh said:

The core and focus of the Gospel is to raise humanity up to a level of enlightenment so that we don't need or desire or tolerate any encroachments against our individual sovereignty.

If one does a keyword search for 'sovereignty' in the Standard Works, one certainly gets a sense of just how important this topic is to the Lord and how central it is to His gospel.

[Chum]

15 minutes ago, ProphetShiloh said:

I invite you to acquaint yourselves with the revelations the Lord has given me as they most definitely address the topic of micromanagement.

For clarity, I wasn't accusing you of being a micromanager. I was thinking of things that can go terribly wrong, in small, insular groups with one person holding power.

Unrelated but I'm respectfully declining your invitation. My interest lies more with the making of the thing, than of the thing itself.

[ProphetShiloh]

21 hours ago, pogi said:

I think you already made it clear what your intentions are.  You want to make disciples of us and have us to lift you up to prophethood with your self aggrandized notions whilst dangling secret knowledge before us.  I find it all quite uninspiring.

My intentions are to boldly proclaim what I know to be true.  Jesus and Joseph Smith, Jr., did the same thing.

The Jews were offended because Jesus taught with authority.  He didn't come asking for anyone's permission to be the Messiah.  He simply was, and he knew it.  For him to conduct himself in any other manner while endeavoring to perform his mission would be contrary to his nature.  His love is directed first and foremost to the Father.  Thus, he wasn't an ordinary person by any means.  And, he certainly came out swinging against the religious corruption of his day.

The intelligence I am capable of teaching is what God has had sealed up until this crucial juncture of time.  The secret combinations he warned about are very close to taking this world into their grip.  The Lord is now setting his hand the second time to recover his people.  If he didn't, all would be lost.

I am not looking to draw people to some new church.  The LDS Church is my church.  I have come to cleanse, redeem, and exalt her to her rightful place.  Unless and until we repent of rejecting celestial law, we are bereft of divine protection.  Everything to accomplish this repentance is already clearly spelled out in "thus saith the Lord" revelations that the members uphold as the word of God.  They just need to have their eyes of understanding opened to see how things are out of harmony with the word of God that they already have.

The most helpful thing will be for Adam and Eve (the ones here in the flesh right now) to open their eyes of understanding and become self aware.