Church to require vaccine passports to attend Christmas events at Temple Sqaure

[The Nehor]

I expected a large sifting of the Church.

I just expected it to be less pathetic.

[Tacenda]

51 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And not just here. I have two Latter-day Saint friends in America who religiously follow a false prophet by the name of Eric Moutsos, as does the wife of my nephew who lives in America. These are exactly the kinds of things he and his disciples post/say. He currently has a meme on his Facebook page that visually compares those who comply with workplace vaccine requirements to the Roman soldiers who crucified the Saviour. His post about Christmas events at Temple Square has, so far, attracted over 1,100 comments. A representative sampling of the most liked ones:

• 'Until I hear taking this shot is a “commandment”[,] I will no longer be loosing [sic] sleep over my conviction to abstain from the “arm of flesh” an[d] allow poison to be injected into my body. I have prayed to “hear him” and the answer is “no”[.] If the doors of the temple or the church are closed to me[,] the sin will be on the leadership'.
• 'I'm trying to talk my daughter OUT of a mission over all this. I would have been thrilled for her to go, but not so much after the past 2 years'.
• 'Cut your ties with this institution. They may hold temple square but they do not hold the square on truth or the gospel'.
• 'This is deeply troubling. It makes me wonder if I’m a “tare.” I guess I’ll own it if that’s the case. I’m not going to lose my faith[,] but I’m also not taking the poison. If it comes to it, I’ll worship and study the gospel on my own'.
• 'Preach it[,] brother[,] preach it[.] virtue signaling and letting the government's [k]now they're falling in step[.] prove me otherwise'.
• 'How can we get mad and fight back towards the governments and business doing this and then allowing the church to do the same thing[?] Allowing them so much grace when they are part of this mess. I am a faithful member and not sure what to do at this point'.
• 'I am sad and angry! They are playing politics! The church should still speak out and stands for truth!'
• 'Really regret getting married here, repenting of it now'.
• 'Hard pass for me but enjoy visiting beautifully lit and consciously voluntary prison camp compliantly crawling with blood clots and ADE, and sieg heil to your fellow comrades while you're there'.

I could go on and on. But yeah, you're spot-on in your impersonation, @pogi.

Neither is mine. I heard from my sister in America earlier this week that my nephew's wife, though out of hospital some weeks back, is still on bottled oxygen and may be for a long, long time (rest of her life?). She of course exercised her personal liberty to skip the 'poison' of the vaccine and the trampling of her rights and thereby chose a long stay in ICU and a Covid ward instead. Apparently, though, she didn't really have Covid, according to her Facebook posts. (I can't confirm since, freedom-lover that she is, she blocked me from seeing her Facebook page after I pointed out in a comment that the anti-vaxx 'doctor' whose video she had shared can be seen in another discussing a previous life in the Lost City of Atlantis ...

And of the two Church member friends who've been sucked in by this Moutsos bloke and his apostate rantings, one of them lost her unvaccinated brother and father in the space of a single week several months back. Her public response: no one has the right to judge her or her family's decisions. Oh, and something about burning the governor's mansion to the ground ...

Scariest thing I've seen in my life, really. Especially seeing my own family, extended family and a couple of friends believe in it.  

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I expected a large sifting of the Church.

I just expected it to be less pathetic.

The reality, of course, is that this one is not 'pathetic' to those caught up in it or to those sympathetic to those caught up in it.

And I suspect that's a very important warning/reminder for the rest of us whenever we find ourselves sympathetic to previous and, no doubt, future siftings.

In the end, they're all pathetic once we set aside or personal biases.

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The reality, of course, is that this one is not 'pathetic' to those caught up in it or to those sympathetic to those caught up in it.

And I suspect that's a very important warning/reminder for the rest of us whenever we find ourselves sympathetic to previous and, no doubt, future siftings.

In the end, they're all pathetic once we set aside or personal biases.

I still think some are more pathetic than others.

[Hamba Tuhan]

31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I still think some are more pathetic than others.

Of course. So do I. That's just a way of identifying where our sympathies/antipathies/preferences lie.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Of course. So do I. That's just a way of identifying where our sympathies/antipathies/preferences lie.

If I go full apostate I am going to at least pick something fun to do it over.

[Hamba Tuhan]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If I go full apostate I am going to at least pick something fun to do it over.

Good luck with that! From my perspective, apostasy seems to generate far more outrage than fun regardless of which issue the person chooses.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

24 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Good luck with that! From my perspective, apostasy seems to generate far more outrage than fun regardless of which issue the person chooses.

Currently I think I am going with lots of kinky sex, some form of gluttony, lots of hallucinogenics, and burning down hideous buildings that constitute architectural crimes against humanity.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Currently I think I am going with lots of kinky sex, some form of gluttony, lots of hallucinogenics, and burning down hideous buildings that constitute architectural crimes against humanity.

No offence, but that just sounds like sin.

[Rain]

17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

There are actually a number of 'events' mentioned in the media release in addition to the devotional: a musical presentation called 'Witnesses of Christ' on the last Sunday of November plus daily events in the Tabernacle and the Conference Centre Theatre. I had assumed that the reference to 'attendees at any events' was specifically about people who attend one of these performances, not those who merely walk around, but I could be wrong.

Yep, I suspect it'll be just like a temple recommend interview: clearly express expectations and then rely on people having enough integrity to respond honestly.

Yes, I understood it for the performances as well and if that's the case it should be fairly easy.   While we don't have a digital pass here that would be as fast as France, showing your card at the same time as your ticket shouldn't be a big deal.  We had to show our pass in France in museums, restaurants, theaters, airports, hotels etc. and it was pretty quick.

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No offence, but that just sounds like sin.

Pretty much. If I leave it is because I want to do fun sins.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

Yes, I understood it for the performances as well and if that's the case it should be fairly easy.   While we don't have a digital pass here that would be as fast as France, showing your card at the same time as your ticket shouldn't be a big deal.  We had to show our pass in France in museums, restaurants, theaters, airports, hotels etc. and it was pretty quick.

Vaccines are required for many workers where I live but not for customers/clients (who only need to check-in digitally). Just across the border, however, proof of vaccination is required to enter any business or building open to the public (including places of worship). I haven't been able to try it out yet (I've had my head down at work for weeks, and the border only recently reopened), but I already have my vaccine certificate in the wallet app on my phone. I can also add it to our local check-in app, but I haven't done that yet. In our neighbouring jurisdiction, vaccination proof has been integrated into their digital check-in, so it's all a single act. This may now work for me?

My sister in America just keeps her vaccine card in her physical wallet. I'm unsure why any of this would be difficult.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Pretty much. If I leave it is because I want to do fun sins.

Well, I'll wish you luck with that as well then!

Based on extensive personal research, 'fun sins' tend to have a very short half-life.

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

'fun sins' tend to have a very short half-life.

Once the thrill wears off, what remains is a fat ("gluttony"), brain-fried ("hallucinogens'") loser full of STD's ("lots of kinky sex") who will likely end up in prison (arson).   Sounds fun! 

[Canadiandude]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Once the thrill wears off, what remains is a fat ("gluttony"), brain-fried ("hallucinogens'") loser full of STD's ("lots of kinky sex") who will likely end up in prison (arson).   Sounds fun! 

Um…

I enjoy kink and remain STD-free

How sure are we of the association between these elements? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Canadiandude said:

I enjoy kink and remain STD-free

How sure are we of the association between these elements? 

In the midst of a global pandemic, we shouldn't need a reminder that increasing contact ('lots of kinky sex') increases risk of infection.

But yeah, I've grown a bit wary of the focus on STIs and unwanted pregnancies when we have reams of social science and psychological data on the negative impacts of sexual promiscuity, increasingly fed by a diet of free pornography.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Canadiandude said:

Um…

I enjoy kink and remain STD-free

How sure are we of the association between these elements? 

Do you enjoy "lots" of kink with multiple partners? That is what we are talking about here.  You would think that someone taking such risks would be more informed, but I guess not - which explains why STI's are so prevalent. 

If so, do you test yourself with each new partner?  Often STI's are asymptomatic and people frequently don't know they are infected.  I'd say its a pretty solid association.  Around 1 in 5 people in the US have an STI.  That is your average American!  I'd say having "lots of kinky sex" with lots of partners increases your likelihood of contracting an STD significantly beyond the 1 in 5 even.  I'd say you are almost guaranteed to contract an STI within your lifetime with such promiscuity.  

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0125-sexualy-transmitted-infection.html

"Lots of kinky sex" is almost certainly going to expose you to it.  Sure, you could wear a condom, but I thought he was talking about having fun  

Besides that, while condoms are 98% protective against many STI's, they don't protect against all.  You are still susceptible to genital herpes, human papillomavirus infection, syphilis, and chancroid, even with a condom. See:

https://www.cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/brief.html

The Aussies back up the CDC claim too:

Quote

condoms don't protect you from all STIs such as herpes, genital warts and syphilis...

https://www.getthefacts.health.wa.gov.au/faqs/do-condoms-protect-against-all-stis

You are playing the STI version of Russian roulette with each new partner. 

I like what the CDC says:

Quote

The most reliable ways to avoid transmission of STDs are to abstain from sexual activity, or to be in a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with an uninfected partner. However, many infected persons may be unaware of their infection because STDs often are asymptomatic and unrecognized.

Sounds vaguely like the law of chastity...hmmm...science and religion merge again!  

Edited November 11, 2021 by pogi

[Canadiandude]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In the midst of a global pandemic, we shouldn't need a reminder that increasing contact ('lots of kinky sex') increases risk of infection.

But yeah, I've grown a bit wary of the focus on STIs and unwanted pregnancies when we have reams of social science and psychological data on the negative impacts of sexual promiscuity, increasingly fed by a diet of free pornography.

Why would you assume that the various public health enviro’s around the world are the same so as to necessitate such quarantine, or that these authorities recommended that such quarantine is recommended in each circumstances?

By the same token, we might as well shut down every non-essential service, in-person church meetings, meeting of anyone who isn’t of the same household.

No seeing the grandchildren unless I’m the same house, maybe even divide families if they are too large if suddenly a household of kinky partners living together is illegitimate.

Why is it assumed that kink necessarily involves multiple partners, or that these aren’t regular partners, or that having multiple partners is illegitimate?

Why can’t a society encourage safe sex?

Kink communities have their own cultures of established & ethical safety practices of Safe, Sane, Consensual.

Scholarly opinion does not in fact majorly suggest your view of an overall, negative impact of having multiple sex partners, nor would most scholars stand behind such a simplistic view of the issue.

 

Finally the anti-porn ‘science’ crusade has been largely to informed more by societal & religious opinion than actual scientific research.

[Canadiandude]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you enjoy "lots" of kink with multiple partners? That is what we are talking about here.  You would think that someone taking such risks would be more informed, but I guess not - which explains why STI's are so prevalent. 

If so, do you test yourself with each new partner?  Often STI's are asymptomatic and people frequently don't know they are infected.  I'd say its a pretty solid association.  Around 1 in 5 people in the US have an STI.  That is your average American!  I'd say having "lots of kinky sex" with lots of partners increases your likelihood of contracting an STD significantly beyond the 1 in 5 even.  I'd say you are almost guaranteed to contract an STI with such 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0125-sexualy-transmitted-infection.html

"Lots of kinky sex" is almost certainly going to expose you to it.  Sure, you could wear a condom, but I thought he was talking about having fun  

Besides that, while condoms are 98% protective against many STI's, they don't protect against all.  You are still susceptible to genital herpes, human papillomavirus infection, syphilis, and chancroid, even with a condom. See:

https://www.cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/brief.html

The Aussies back up the CDC claim too:

You are playing the STI version of Russian roulette with each new partner. 

I like what the CDC says:

Sounds vaguely like the law of chastity...hmmm...science and religion merge again!  

And the most reliable way to avoid dying of an airplane accident is to not get on an airplane.

There are ways to minimize risk.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Canadiandude

[Calm]

Wow, did this thread go off topic, lol.

[Canadiandude]

3 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

And the most reliable way to avoid dying of an airplane accident is to not get on an airplane.

There are ways to minimize risk.

Car accident and driving probably a better analogy.
 

More routine and greater agency.

[Canadiandude]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Wow, did this thread go off topic, lol.

Funny the direction these distractions often take.

SMITE THE INFIDELS WITH DIVINE JUDGMENT 

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

And the most reliable way to avoid dying of an airplane accident is to not get on an airplane.

16 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

Car accident and driving probably a better analogy.
 

More routine and greater agency.

With the first analogy, I probably wouldn't be flying if 1 in 5 airplane passengers die in plane crashes, would you?

I agree, the second analogy is better.  Most people don't die from STI's, it is more routine, and there is greater agency. 

Quote

According to vehicle insurance experts, the average American driver will be involved in four car accidents in the course of his or her lifetime. 

https://www.greylaw.com/how-many-car-accidents-does-the-average-person-get-into/

I'd say a lifetime of "lots" of promiscuity probably gives you worse odds than that even. If you are comparing driving to lots of kinky sex and car accidents to STIs, aren't you kind of proving my point?   I stand by what I said.  The association is strong and real.  

The question wasn't, is it still worth doing it despite the obvious risk (that is a personal choice), the question was - is there an association?  Of course there is! Just like there is an association between car accidents and driving (good analogy!)  Seems obvious to me. 

There are ways to reduce the risk for car accidents too, yet the odds are still that you will be involved in 4 accidents in your lifetime.  Reducing risk and eliminating risk are not the same.  The association still exists. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by pogi

[Canadiandude]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'd say a lifetime of "lots" of promiscuity probably gives you worse odds than that even. If you are comparing driving to lots of kinky sex and car accidents to STIs, aren't you kind of proving my point?   I stand by what I said.  The association is strong and real. 

First define ‘a lot’ and then promiscuity.

Then explain why lots of kinky sex is necessarily promiscuous.

Might help to define kink as well.

There is nothing considered ‘immoral’ for getting in your car and driving frequently, despite the potential risks, and I’d be very curious to see which entails greater risk, promiscuity, or driving, even with safety practices in mind.

The church, and Christianity as a whole, is obsessed with controlling sex, encouraging a culture of shame on the matter.

Many Latter-Day Saint mental health practitioners and therapists have problematized this shame culture of late, and faced religious disciplinary action as a consequence.

heck, wasn’t oral even frowned upon in the past?

But do not worry, in terms of my own personal liaisons, I’ve yet been able top the # of sexual partners taken by the first modern prophet of my childhood faith.

☺️

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

First define ‘a lot’ and then promiscuity.

Then explain why lots of kinky sex is necessarily promiscuous.

Might help to define kink as well.

There is nothing considered ‘immoral’ for getting in your car and driving frequently, despite the potential risks, and I’d be very curious to see which entails greater risk, promiscuity, or driving, even with safety practices in mind.

The church, and Christianity as a whole, is obsessed with controlling sex, encouraging a culture of shame on the matter.

Many Latter-Day Saint mental health practitioners and therapists have problematized this shame culture of late, and faced religious disciplinary action as a consequence.

heck, wasn’t oral even frowned upon in the past?

But do not worry, in terms of my own personal liaisons, I’ve yet been able top the # of sexual partners taken by the first modern prophet of my childhood faith.

☺️

You are changing the subject.

Do you deny the fact that there is an association between STI”s and an increase in sex and sex partners.  I can’t believe you are really making an issue out of my comment.  First, it was kind of a joke, and second, everyone knows that lots of kinky sex with   multiple partners is associated with an increased risk for STIs.  Much more so than abstinence and monogamy.  How can you seriously claim that there is no association? 

Edited November 11, 2021 by pogi