Burkas, modesty rhetoric and where do we go from here

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, Logan said:

You can teach and maintain high standards of modesty without "insulting and humilating" people. 

Our basic standards of modesty (and everything else) should be the same. There shouldn't be different standards for everyone. 

Well, they are not the same worldwide even within the church because different cultures have different standards of modesty.

I am betting that if some guy showed up dressed like the angel Moroni to a stake dance they would be turned away. Seriously, Joseph said he could see into his bosom. Talk about immodest!!! If heavenly beings don’t conform to American Church member’s standards of modesty maybe they aren’t an eternal unchanging standard?

[provoman]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Well, they are not the same worldwide even within the church because different cultures have different standards of modesty.

I am betting that if some guy showed up dressed like the angel Moroni to a stake dance they would be turned away. Seriously, Joseph said he could see into his bosom. Talk about immodest!!! If heavenly beings don’t conform to American Church member’s standards of modesty maybe they aren’t an eternal unchanging standard?

Oh memories....Jesus had long hair and wore sandals. So as a tennager I had long hair, and worr sandals (sometines with socks).

[secondclasscitizen]

4 hours ago, provoman said:

Oh memories....Jesus had long hair and wore sandals. So as a tennager I had long hair, and worr sandals (sometines with socks).

Only bad people have long hair. My bishop used to send any Aaronic priesthood holders back to the pews who had even one hair touching their collar. We routinely had four or five elders up there despite us having about thirty eligible aaronic priesthood. 

poster removed

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, provoman said:

Oh memories....Jesus had long hair and wore sandals. So as a tennager I had long hair, and worr sandals (sometines with socks).

Rebel!

[provoman]

9 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Only bad people have long hair. My bishop used to send any Aaronic priesthood holders back to the pews who had even one hair touching their collar. We routinely had four or five elders up there despite us having about thirty eligible aaronic priesthood. 

I do not understand things like that. 

[provoman]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Rebel!

Yes. Thankfully my Bishops were kind and compassionate.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Only bad people have long hair. My bishop used to send any Aaronic priesthood holders back to the pews who had even one hair touching their collar. We routinely had four or five elders up there despite us having about thirty eligible aaronic priesthood. 

One would think we would be over the threat from those crazy hippies by now.

[secondclasscitizen]

2 minutes ago, provoman said:

I do not understand things like that. 

Yea he and a few others in my stake were real gems. Well they are approved by the 1st pres so nothing to see here. 

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, provoman said:

worr sandals (sometines with socks).

I was with you until the parenthetical bit. Now I believe that any chance for salvation is lost for you. Goodbye my fallen friend.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said:

women who have bolt on boobs

Just stop.

[secondclasscitizen]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I was with you until the parenthetical bit. Now I believe that any chance for salvation is lost for you. Goodbye my fallen friend.

As long as there are socks!!! Praise be

[Logan]

1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Then we need to start banning makeup, earrings, dresses above the ankle, hair coloring, perms and make them all just like dudes. 

and then there is this gem

 

https://missedinsunday.com/memes/sexism/ugly-knees/

 

Or how about we just teach modest famine attire and set a clear standard for what that looks like. The one in the For Strength of Youth Pamphlet use to be our standard. But the lines keep getting blurred with each new worldly trend. 

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Logan said:

Or how about we just teach modest famine attire and set a clear standard for what that looks like. The one in the For Strength of Youth Pamphlet use to be our standard. But the lines keep getting blurred with each new worldly trend. 

This is what I found on LDS.org. How come the men's isn't very descriptive like the women's? I follow Al Fox Carraway a little bit and her husband wears shorts all the time that are way shorter than the average temple garment. And what about sports? The men wear tanks but the women can't? 

Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

[provoman]

Not sure about this photo. But I have found another photo online of BYUI Cheerleaders in leggings at somekind of banquet.

Edited August 22, 2021 by provoman

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is what I found on LDS.org. How come the men's isn't very descriptive like the women's? I follow Al Fox Carraway a little bit and her husband wears shorts all the time that are way shorter than the average temple garment. And what about sports? The men wear tanks but the women can't? 

Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

Makes the approved answer to this song seem slightly sexist.

 

[Logan]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Well, they are not the same worldwide even within the church because different cultures have different standards of modesty.

The basic standard of modesty outlined in the For Strength of Youth pamphlet can be followed in every culture world wide. 

[Logan]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

Not sure about this photo. But I have found another photo online of BYUI Cheerleaders in leggings at somekind of banquet.

Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

A simple look at how BYU uniforms for cheer and women's sports have evolved over the years shows that we have followed right along with the ever changing modesty standards of the world. 

Exhibit A is the BYU cheerleader on the right. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Logan said:

The real question for me is why LDS women and girls want to dress immodestly.

And the only answer I can think of is that they want to fit in with the world and look attractive by worldly standards….

The church should be a refuge from the storm of worldliness….

 

You are not impressing me with your just the other side of the coin choices.  You are still living by worldly standards when you frame the discussion this way.  Maybe these women and girls have been able to move past looking at modesty in the way the world does and decided to use the standard God does….while you and others who choose to react against what the world is doing are actually accepting it rather than being all rebellious.  You are constructing the modesty standard on a basis of yea or nay to what you see is the “worldly” standard.  Better to choose a standard not dictated in the first place by the world, but informed and taught to one by God.

If you don’t understand the difference, think of another standard of appearance:  weight.  The worldly standard of appearance requires a woman to wear a certain dress size.  Models are dress size 4 vs the average dress size being closer to 12.  There are women whose goal for their appearance is to be able to wear clothing meant for girls, even young girls at times (there is a fad out there to buy a certain girl’s top and then take selfies to prove you fit into it).  One can choose to resist the worldly standard by refusing to diet so as to be able to force oneself into a size four…but that still is allowing the world to tell you what standard one is living by.  Another way is to stop thinking about dress sizes altogether when it comes to making a choice of what one wants to wear. You buy clothing by how it fits you and your needs, not caring if it is a 4 or 8 or 12 or 16 or 20 or whatever…

Instead one can choose to dispense with clothing size as a standard whether one accepts or rebels against it.  Instead one stops thinking about their body and appearance in that way and chooses a different standard to live by, whether it is comfort or my favourite, health.  Health will result in looking at choosing clothing in a very different way than a body size standard.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Logan said:

The basic standard of modesty outlined in the For Strength of Youth pamphlet can be followed in every culture world wide. 

Yeah, if you don't mind looking weird.

Also, why are you so obsessed with women and girls not following everything and ignore men and boys?

[Logan]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are not impressing me with your just the other side of the coin choices.  You are still living by worldly standards when you frame the discussion this way.  Maybe these women and girls have been able to move past looking at modesty in the way the world does and decided to use the standard God does….while you and others who choose to react against what the world is doing are actually accepting it rather than being all rebellious.  You are constructing the modesty standard on a basis of yea or nay to what you see is the “worldly” standard.  Better to choose a standard not dictated in the first place by the world, but informed and taught to one by God.

I don't follow.

The For the Strength of Youth pamphlet outlines the basic standards God has established for modesty. I'm suggesting we follow what it says. 

[Logan]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, if you don't mind looking weird.

Also, why are you so obsessed with women and girls not following everything and ignore men and boys?

There's nothing wrong with "looking weird" in the eyes of the world. In fact we should look different or "weird" in the eyes of the world if we are truly following Christ.

What am I ignoring about men and boys?

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Logan said:

There's nothing wrong with "looking weird" in the eyes of the world. In fact we should look different or "weird" in the eyes of the world if we are truly following Christ.

What am I ignoring about men and boys?

You spent a lot of time fantasizing about why women and girls choose not to follow the standards. Why no theorycrafting about men and boys?

[Fether]

Here is very insightful podcast by a non-Latter-day Saint Christian on the topic of Modesty. 
 

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Logan said:

I don't follow.

One worldly standard is to have a certain height/weight ratio for appearances to be most attractive. One can reject the world’s standard in two ways (there are others, but keeping it simple). One can reject it by saying “I don’t accept the ratio that pushes me to wear size 4 clothing to be seen as attractive, my attractiveness ratio will be the one that allows me to wear size 12”. One then figures out how many lbs that means for one’s height and then gets on the scale every day for the rest of one’s life making sure one doesn’t deviate from that weight. One is thus still having an unhealthy emotional relationship with one’s weight, obsessing about being size 12 instead of obsessing about being size 4. 
 

That is still allowing the world to define what attractiveness is, just adjusting the standard to one that works better for you. 
 

Or you could be someone like my daughter who wouldn’t know her weight except for the fact she gets weighed at her doctors’ appts.  She has completely ignored the world’s standard for attractiveness in the first place and has her own and it has nothing to do with weight or height or their ratio.  
 

We in the Church are told to be in the world, but not of it. If our standards are defined in terms by looking at the world and then deciding whether or not we will act a certain way based on how the world measures whatever, we are living by the standard of the world. We accept the way the world measures our life as being valid even if we disagree on what those measurements should be.

If God means something different when modesty or virtue is spoken of in the scriptures than appearance, or to be specific, how much skin is shown, but the Church focuses on teaching modesty by ensuring only so much skin is shown…the Church standard isn’t based on God’s standard, but is just a rewrite of the worldly standard. 
 

We are missing out on God’s love and blessings if we are focusing on the wrong standard, even if we are teaching our children to not accept that standard as is, but change the value (say to “attractiveness is less skin showing, not more”).

Edited August 22, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Here is very insightful podcast by a non-Latter-day Saint Christian on the topic of Modesty. 
 

 

Just a woman’s issue?