The fall of Adam and the atonement of Christ are linked together—inseparably, everlastingly, never to be parted.

[Fair Dinkum]

12 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

The only mentions of death in the Garden story are in relation to Adam and Even eating the fruit of a specific tree. Thus death outside the garden, like I said, is not addressed.

Where did I claim otherwise? The first instance of man we have in the various scriptural accounts is Adam being placed in the garden. We have nothing about how long he was there. We have nothing about other humans outside the garden. By your logic, since cats aren't explicitly mentioned in the bible, they didn't exist right?

I understand what you are doing here. You are attempting to mesh two supposed realities together so that they make cognitive sense.  On the one hand we have the evolutionary model of humanity evolving over millions of years.  This model has all of the scientific evidence supporting it's reality. And you're attempting to hold on to this truth while trying to make it blend with the Biblical Adam and Eve Story so you have to concoct a scenario where both of these two realities can co exist.  Only problem is that this duo-humanity-history model is built on pure speculation.  You have to massage or twist what the Bible actually says to force it to say what you want it to say to support your model.. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

As for cats, while I'm not a fan, they clearly do have have existed for ages. 

[OGHoosier]

12 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

ok, I guess that's one way to work around this matter by completely reframing what God is supposedly actually saying to Moses. 

Yep! No objections here. Of course, I come from a point of view where the purpose of ongoing revelation is to do precisely what Christ did: make all things new. 

Again, I don't think scripture has to be journalistic history in order to be scripture, I think that's a very presentist and blinkered way to regard it, so I don't see a betrayal here. 

15 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Let's be clear, I am not calling God a liar, it is those who choose to twist God's words to accommodate their interpretation of the supposed words that he is saying that are making God out to be a liar.

And I still think it's an inappropriate term. 

[CV75]

On 8/16/2021 at 11:22 AM, Fair Dinkum said:

The church still teaches HERE that the Fall first introduced:

01. Sin

02. Physical Death

03.Spiritual Death

and 

04. The ability to procreate

Into the world.  However the claim that physical death or procreation was first introduced into the world through the fall of man is demonstrably false and can be imperially proven.  There has NEVER been a time on the earth when life has existed and death has not existed nor when live could not reproduced.  So death was NOT introduced on earth through a fall nor was procreation.  These are provably false doctrines. Death has always existed since the very first cell divided or the very first multi cell organism first ceased to exist and procreation since that very first cell divided.  The Fall did not first introduce death nor procreation into the world.

And as Bruce R McConkie so eloquently taught "The fall is the foundation upon which the atonement rests...If there was no fall, there was no need for a Savior"  The whole house of cards come tumbling down.

As a side note I ask the question, Can Christ be omnipotent if He believed and taught the existence of both Adam and Eve and the story of Noah?  Both of these stories are myths.  Why would an all knowing God teach falsehoods and claim them to be real when in fact they were myths?

LDS doctrine is also built on the foundation of an actual Fall.  Without the fall LDS scripture falls apart as well and seem silly.

 

What have you learned so far from this thread?

[Fair Dinkum]

45 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What have you learned so far from this thread?

That there are many paths to the top of Mt Fuji.  What I do find interesting, as far as I can see, is that despite there being an orthodox doctrine say regarding Adam and Eve, even though that doctrine is backed up and supported by scripture and prophetic utterances, seemingly everyone has their own independent interpretation of how exactly to process that doctrine.  In other words there can literally be 16.5 million sub churches within Mormonism all conflicting on many elements of their views within the same church while finding a consensus of thought on other doctrines.  But to quote Adam. "to me it is a mass of confusion"

Edited August 18, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Fair Dinkum]

duplicate post

Edited August 18, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[bOObOO]

3 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

That there are many paths to the top of Mt Fuji.  What I do find interesting, as far as I can see, is that despite there being an orthodox doctrine say regarding Adam and Eve, seemingly everyone has their own independent interpretation of how exactly to process that doctrine.  In other words there can literally be 16.5 million sub churches within Mormonism all conflicting on many elements of their views within the same church while finding a consensus of thought on other doctrines.  But to quote Adam. "to me it is a mass of confusion"

What you call sub churches are actually members of the same church, the one and only true church of Jesus Christ, and yes most if not all members are not totally tuned into the truth on every facet of our Lord's doctrine and intelligence.

[Fair Dinkum]

4 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

What you call sub churches are actually members of the same church, the one and only true church of Jesus Christ, and yes most if not all members are not totally tuned into the truth on every facet of our Lord's doctrine and intelligence.

I'm glad the church has you to help define and clarify what exactly "the Truth" is because clearly the scripture's and prophetic pronouncements aren't doing that other wise we'd all be on the same page

[bOObOO]

2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I'm glad the church has you to help define and clarify what exactly "the Truth" is because clearly the scripture's and prophetic pronouncements aren't doing that other wise we'd all be on the same page

I'd now like to thank God, our Father, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and all of our Lord's prophets and apostles who I've ever heard from, whether orally or in writing, and all of my Sunday School teachers, and everyone else who helped to make me this way.

Thank you.  Thank you all very much.  

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

That there are many paths to the top of Mt Fuji.  What I do find interesting, as far as I can see, is that despite there being an orthodox doctrine say regarding Adam and Eve, even though that doctrine is backed up and supported by scripture and prophetic utterances, seemingly everyone has their own independent interpretation of how exactly to process that doctrine.  In other words there can literally be 16.5 million sub churches within Mormonism all conflicting on many elements of their views within the same church while finding a consensus of thought on other doctrines.  But to quote Adam. "to me it is a mass of confusion"

But you've been saying this, essentially, all along. Your OP was a statement of certitude. Confirmation bias!

There are some 7.8 billion subsets within humanity with their own independent interpretation of -- and how to interpret -- any topic you can propose. Ask any of them to point at the sun, which all are exposed to, and see how many conflicting angles you get, especially at night. How many can describe the most important effect of the sun, as opposed to how many can then explain how it works -- more than a few in terms you'd never be able to wrap your mind around scientifically, and just as many in terms you would ignore or scoff at. Is it really that confusing?

Edited August 18, 2021 by CV75

[CV75]

31 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I'm glad the church has you to help define and clarify what exactly "the Truth" is because clearly the scripture's and prophetic pronouncements aren't doing that other wise we'd all be on the same page

The ordinances constitute "the same page" for members of the Church. They are exactly the same for everyone. How each individual understands and applies them will differ, yet the Church remains a cohesive entity at the most important, fundamental level.

[bOObOO]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

But you've been saying this, essentially, all along. Your OP was a statement of certitude. Confirmation bias!

There are some 7.8 billion subsets within humanity with their own independent interpretation of -- and how to interpret -- any topic you can propose. Ask any adult to point at the sun, which all are exposed to, and see how many conflicting angles you get, especially at night. How many can describe the most important effect of the sun, as opposed to how many can then explain how it works -- more than a few in terms you'd never be able to wrap your mind around scientifically, and just as many in terms you would ignore or scoff at. Is it really that confusing?

For some people conflict = confusion.  Does this question seem familiar to you?:  "What is the truth and how shall I know it?" 

We're all searching for it until we find it and know who to trust for our answers.

[Fair Dinkum]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

But you've been saying this, essentially, all along. Your OP was a statement of certitude. Confirmation bias!

There are some 7.8 billion subsets within humanity with their own independent interpretation of -- and how to interpret -- any topic you can propose. Ask any of them to point at the sun, which all are exposed to, and see how many conflicting angles you get, especially at night. How many can describe the most important effect of the sun, as opposed to how many can then explain how it works -- more than a few in terms you'd never be able to wrap your mind around scientifically, and just as many in terms you would ignore or scoff at. Is it really that confusing?

But to borrow your metaphor, it seems that everyone here is pointing to completely different objects and each telling me that that there is the Sun, so I'm left feeling gobsmacked.  Heck within this board we can't find consensus.

[Fair Dinkum]

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

But you've been saying this, essentially, all along. Your OP was a statement of certitude. Confirmation bias!

There are some 7.8 billion subsets within humanity with their own independent interpretation of -- and how to interpret -- any topic you can propose. Ask any of them to point at the sun, which all are exposed to, and see how many conflicting angles you get, especially at night. How many can describe the most important effect of the sun, as opposed to how many can then explain how it works -- more than a few in terms you'd never be able to wrap your mind around scientifically, and just as many in terms you would ignore or scoff at. Is it really that confusing?

But to borrow your metaphor, it seems that everyone here is pointing to completely different objects and each telling me that that there is the Sun, so I'm left gobsmacked.

[bOObOO]

1 minute ago, Fair Dinkum said:

But to borrow your metaphor, it seems that everyone here is pointing to completely different objects and each telling me that that there is the Sun, so I'm left feeling gobsmacked.  Heck within this board we can't find consensus.

On most things most of us do, but only to a certain point.  Most of us believe in an Adam and Eve.  There had to be a first man and woman on this planet regardless of how he or she got here.  Nobody just poofs/appears from out of nothing or nowhere.

The dissenters are those who don't believe the first man on this planet was named Adam, or that the first woman here was named Eve.  They don't know what their name was and may not even think they had names, but we all know there was a first man here and also a first woman otherwise there would have been no baby versions of us.  

[pogi]

@Fair Dinkum

I was hoping to see a response to this post, but haven't seen anything yet:

On 8/16/2021 at 7:02 PM, Kevin Christensen said:

No death where?, is the question.  The answer, is, of course, Eden, a garden, from which Adam and Eve depart to a dreary place where different conditions apply than in Eden.  When they arrive are given garments of skin, which symbolizes their entry into physical bodies and morality. And of course, the Eden story is not a history, but a symbolic temple drama.  Nibley even points out the stage directions included in the Book of Abraham in one of his last major articles.  "Abraham's Temple Drama."    The Book of Moses even has phrases like "Adam is many" and "there were many lands and each land was called earth."

In Godel, Escher and Bach, Hofstadter reminds us that "proofs are demonstrations within fixed systems of propositions" and that "Godel shows that provability is a weaker notion than truth no matter what axiomatic system is involved."  (pages 18 and 19.).

Or as Ian Barbour puts it in Myths, Models, and Paradigms: A Comparative Study of Science and Religion, 

Recall that in Moses 1, we are told that worlds without number have been created and destroyed, in an ongoing process.  Does not the destruction of worlds imply at least a little bit of death?  Which means, the assumption of "No Death Before the Fall" as an "Absolute thoughout all the Cosmos" is a demonstrably false assumption.   Remove that absolute, accept that that system of propositions is not base on close observation, or revelation, but rather, unexamined assumptions by people who have no claim to absolute knowledge, and accept that the stories we have actually put the notion relative to Eden and the Garden, both Temple dramas, and the problem, like many others, goes away.   Nibley's 1980 "Before Adam" talk goes into this sort of thing in detail.

Unless, the real priority is to have a problem that one can use to prick the vulnerable bubble of faith and thus be rid of something that one does not want to be burdened with.  Paradigm choice, Kuhn explains, always involving "Which problems are more significant to have solved?"

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, A

 

[bOObOO]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

@Fair Dinkum

I was hoping to see a response to this post, but haven't seen anything yet:

 

 How about you respond to Kevin's post and then I will respond to your post responding to Kevin's.  Deal?

Or, nevermind, if that was an exclusive invitation to only Fair Dinkum.

Edited August 18, 2021 by bOObOO

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

But to borrow your metaphor, it seems that everyone here is pointing to completely different objects and each telling me that that there is the Sun, so I'm left gobsmacked.

No, it’s not that. Instead of “where” it’s simply “what.” And someone could rightly point to anything and say it is the sun, since it is ultimately a product of the same nebula as the sun. All they’d have to do is explain their rationale, by myth or by something you find more palatable, or by something you don’t understand. It depends on the tools they and you are using.

[bOObOO]

45 minutes ago, CV75 said:

No, it’s not that. Instead of “where” it’s simply “what.” And someone could rightly point to anything and say it is the sun, since it is ultimately a product of the same nebula as the sun. All they’d have to do is explain their rationale, by myth or by something you find more palatable, or by something you don’t understand. It depends on the tools they and you are using.

Example:  Some people have told me the sun is on the box of Raisin Bran cereal.  Silly children.  Those aren't even real raisins, or flakes.

[Fair Dinkum]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

@Fair Dinkum

I was hoping to see a response to this post, but haven't seen anything yet:

 

I asked this earlier but did not receive a satisfactory response. Please provide me with a scriptural reference that shows me that somehow No death before the fall means that actually there was death before the fall but just not in the garden of Eden.  Your logic would be similar to my asserting that Christ's resurrection and victory over death was limited to only those then living in Jerusalem, while those living elsewhere on the earth receive no such victory over death.

So please provide me with your scriptural back up  ( I can make it easy for you, none exists)

 

Please parse this statement for me: 

Quote

The fall of Adam brought temporal and spiritual death into the world

Perhaps we enlightened MD&D board participants should reach out to the brethren and correct the false doctrine they continue to teach.  I am sure they would appreciate being corrected and informed that Adams fall did not bring both temporal and spiritual death into the world but only to a very small garden in the state of Missouri.  Elsewhere throughout the world, death was very much alive and flourishing.

 

Don't feel too badly however, the Bible also teaches this false doctrine of no death before the fall See: 1 Corinthians 15:20–22

Quote

Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall (2 Ne. 2:22; Moses 6:48).

 

Who am I to question latter-day revelation

Edited August 18, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

That there are many paths to the top of Mt Fuji.  What I do find interesting, as far as I can see, is that despite there being an orthodox doctrine say regarding Adam and Eve, even though that doctrine is backed up and supported by scripture and prophetic utterances, seemingly everyone has their own independent interpretation of how exactly to process that doctrine.  In other words there can literally be 16.5 million sub churches within Mormonism all conflicting on many elements of their views within the same church while finding a consensus of thought on other doctrines.  But to quote Adam. "to me it is a mass of confusion"

The only element more mysterious in the faith is probably the atonement.

At least there is symmetry. I don’t find it surprising that these are the two most complex events.

As to a lack of agreement about specifics I just don’t see what the worry about that would be about. There probably should be a divergence of views simply because they are so foundational and also so intimate to who and what we are.

[bOObOO]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There probably should be a divergence of views simply because they are so foundational and also so intimate to who and what we are.

I'm reminded of a Seinfeld episode.  No, wait, 2 Seinfeld episodes.  One with Kramer's idea of levels and another with Peterman going to Myanmar with Kramer encouraging Elaine to embrace her "katra" whatever that is. 

Anyway, yeah the odds are in our favor that we're not always going to be thinking the same thing that everyone else is thinking.  Some of us are younger and not even talking yet while others of us have been around on this planet a while.

Perfectly reasonable explanations for why all of us are not always thinking the same things, or are unable to see from all perspectives.

Edited August 18, 2021 by bOObOO

[Fair Dinkum]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The only element more mysterious in the faith is probably the atonement.

At least there is symmetry. I don’t find it surprising that these are the two most complex events.

As to a lack of agreement about specifics I just don’t see what the worry about that would be about. There probably should be a divergence of views simply because they are so foundational and also so intimate to who and what we are.

You would think that something so

Quote

"foundational and also so intimate to who and what we are"

would be clear and concise, not muddled in speculation and personal theories

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

You would think that something so

would be clear and concise, not muddled in speculation and personal theories

I would not. The foundational doctrines are stuff almost everyone agrees on in the important aspects but naturally collect private interpretations.

Or, to quote C.S. Lewis:

Quote

But I think they will all agree that the thing itself is infinitely more important than any explanations that theologians have produced. I think they would probably admit that no explanation will ever be quite adequate to the reality. But as I said in the preface to this book, I am only a layman, and at this point we are getting into deep water. I can only tell you, for what it is worth, how I, personally, look at the matter. On my view the theories are not themselves the thing you are asked to accept

The Fall is in a similar state.

Since your primary goal is to discredit the faith you see any evidence of inconsistency as vitally important. You should not be surprised if others find it unimportant.

[OGHoosier]

24 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

You would think that something so

Quote

"foundational and also so intimate to who and what we are"

would be clear and concise, not muddled in speculation and personal theories

Why would I think that?

There are many things which are clear and concise in this world. 1+1=2. Apples fall when severed from their trees. The sky is blue. These clear and concise things are, as philosophers put it, "trivially true." They are true. And nobody cares about them. 

No, it seems to me that the things people care about, the things we define ourselves by, are the things most mired in speculation and personal theories. Messy interpersonal relationships. Political opinions and affiliations. Religious opinions. Ethnic, cultural, and historical identity. These are not clear nor concise, and yet they are most foundational and intimate to who we are. 

I'm grateful for that. If I had to make my identity based on only clear, concise, obvious, and undeniable things, I would be an object, not a person. Living in ambiguity lets me make my own way. Three cheers for F.W. J. Schelling.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

1+1=2….They are true. And nobody cares about them. 

I care, I care deeply about 1 + 1=2 and all that springs forth from that…

As long as the sky is not perpetually hot pink or dirty brown or gray, I think I could manage with whatever for that one though. Will have to think about apples falling…might actually be pro having that not be true given the state of our driveway right now under our Apple tree. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Calm