Elohim and the creation

[Fether]

39 minutes ago, poptart said:

disagree, knowing who was involved in the creation is very important.  Keep in mind we likely live in different worlds, I'm from a Trinitarian background, you are not, we are different in that regard

Fair.

I remember speaking to traditional Christians while serving a mission in Kentucky. They seemed VERY concerned about getting doctrine right. I remember asking once “I accept Christ as my savior… but you claim I am still going to Hell simply because I think God had a body?” And they said “yes.”

This may be unique to a few of the people I spoke to, but there seemed to be a sense of needing to know the exact nature of God or one would be in danger of eternal hell.

Latter-day Saint doctrine teaches that the purpose of life is NOT to simple accept Christ, but to become like him. And as for our eternal destination, God will judge us by our deeds and desires of our hearts (Doctrine and Covenants 137:9) And that the grace of God will carry us when our deeds fall short (Eph 2:8-9) of what is expected.

In short, God will bless us with our righteous desires even if we fall short. The key is seeking after them and really wanting them.

There is little concern with doctrinal teachings such as who was on a role call for the creation of the earth, whether God is a healthy young looking man or an old man with a beard, or when the end of the world actually is.

[poptart]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Fair.

I remember speaking to traditional Christians while serving a mission in Kentucky. They seemed VERY concerned about getting doctrine right. I remember asking once “I accept Christ as my savior… but you claim I am still going to Hell simply because I think God had a body?” And they said “yes.”

This may be unique to a few of the people I spoke to, but there seemed to be a sense of needing to know the exact nature of God or one would be in danger of eternal hell.

Latter-day Saint doctrine teaches that the purpose of life is NOT to simple accept Christ, but to become like him. And as for our eternal destination, God will judge us by our deeds and desires of our hearts (Doctrine and Covenants 137:9) And that the grace of God will carry us when our deeds fall short (Eph 2:8-9) of what is expected.

In short, God will bless us with our righteous desires even if we fall short. The key is seeking after them and really wanting them.

There is little concern with doctrinal teachings such as who was on a role call for the creation of the earth, whether God is a healthy young looking man or an old man with a beard, or when the end of the world actually is.

Catholic?  Protestant?  If so what denomination?  I cringe a little whenever I hear someone say accepting as your savior.  Sure it happens but the first step is repenting.  Then again, not all "traditional" Christians have had a proper catechesis, in fact I'd say a good chunk of them haven't.  The level of education a lot of Christians in this country has is horrible, and they have the nerve to call a lot of Europe secular despite places like Bavaria having laws where a crucifix must be on display in gov't buildings, businesses are closed by law on Sunday, child welfare is a much bigger deal and abortion is pretty much a crime after the first trimester.  Also going to hell for having a human body?  I'd have asked them what about Christs?  He had one and still does, we all get one at the final resurrection.  Irritates me when people do that and don't ask more questions, then again that's me.

To be fair, most Trinitarian denominations say to be as Christ like as possible.  Repentance is a two way street.  I think a lot of that stems from American individualism and entitlement.  I had a Jesuit priest once tell me when i said what if I don't feel like i've done no wrong why I still had to go to confession, "While God loves us, he does not care about your feelings.  You broke his laws, you sinned, you know it as does He.  Confess, repent and knock it off."  Not something your average person likes to hear, personal responsibility and accountability aren't exactly popular things in contemporary American culture.

That's the point of Christianity, one of them.  That was why He set up the church, Christ came from the line of David and was literally the King of Kings in every way and his own people sold him out, if anyone knew human nature it was Christ.  People in general need to be told what to do and yep, they mess up all the time. 

Will say, Catholics, esp. Trad ones and some Protestants can be total sticklers, you're right there.  Think it's part of the system, most Americans cannot fathom just what the church went through to survive, how it was almost exterminated in places and while people here are relatively safe and sound in other parts of the world they are persecuted heavily.  Those who go through a proper catechism and religious schooling get that hammered into them.  Also, I do think that's something unique to the USA, people do argue quite a bit about who's right and who isn't.  In Canada Protestants get along a lot more with Catholics and everyone else, just like in Europe.  It's sad but that's just how it is here.  As always politics ruins everything.

To be fair, while the doctrinal points are different, do I really care?  Lol no.  I just put that out there so you knew where I was coming from.  I'm as heretical as they come, that's why I said i'm a cultural Christian.  For me deity is something like the Tao, far, far removed from us.  I'd probably agree with you more than you'd think, in practice what does matter most is faith hope and charity as well as the other norms of the church.  Different system but in the end the goals the LDS church makes happen put Christianity here stateside to shame.  The people who want the 10 commandments in courthouses? I say put the proclamation to the world on the Family next to it, personally I'd say that one is more important if we're going to argue about Christian rules in gov't buildings.  That's also why I made this thread, I was curious.  I know a lot of Christians who'd lose it at the idea of Elohim and others making the world.   Me?  I'd say tell me more, i'm curious.  

As an aside, if you really want to irritate various flavors of "Traditional", ask about Christs Mom.  Most have no idea that outside of Catholicism she's still held in very high regard.  Martin Luther himself believed she was sinless and was taken into heaven.  Lutherans even have a rosary of sorts, like the Anglicans.  Ohh boy, the idea of Holy Mary sharing in the administration of things with Christ sure upsets some folks.  

[Fether]

36 minutes ago, poptart said:

I know a lot of Christians who'd lose it at the idea of Elohim and others making the world.   Me?  I'd say tell me more, i'm curious.  

And it is this mindset where The Church takes a back seat. They don’t say that there isnt answers or that we shouldn't seek further understanding. Our leaders (global and local) are just self aware enough to know that conversation about overcoming the trial of a lost child may be more useful for members than a conversations about whether we were are involved in the creation and what the steps were to create the world.

There are other sources outside the church, some even funded by the church, that take those deeper dives in an unofficial format. Our leaders even write books and make comments on such topics, though their words do not suggest doctrine unless spoken in official church settings. After all, it’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that I am a member of. Not The Church of Ezra Taft Benson or Cleon Skousen

[poptart]

5 hours ago, Fether said:

And it is this mindset where The Church takes a back seat. They don’t say that there isnt answers or that we shouldn't seek further understanding. Our leaders (global and local) are just self aware enough to know that conversation about overcoming the trial of a lost child may be more useful for members than a conversations about whether we were are involved in the creation and what the steps were to create the world.

There are other sources outside the church, some even funded by the church, that take those deeper dives in an unofficial format. Our leaders even write books and make comments on such topics, though their words do not suggest doctrine unless spoken in official church settings. After all, it’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that I am a member of. Not The Church of Ezra Taft Benson or Cleon Skousen

That's also a failing of many churches here stateside, people are supposed to be educated on these things after baptism as children.  Know you guys do things a bit differently but that's how it's supposed to go.  If someone's priest/pastor begins to lecture someone who's child just died about the creation of the world and the nature of the Trinity he really, really sucks as a pastor.  That's also the fault of a lot of people nowadays as well, they want the easy way.  Sound doctrine and education fixes a lot of these when followed, something a lot of people both at the clergy and laymen level fail hard at.  

[mfbukowski]

John 1:1

The Word (Jesus) created all things.

Done.

Peace, out.

[Spammer]

14 hours ago, poptart said:

 

I had a Jesuit priest once tell me when i said what if I don't feel like i've done no wrong why I still had to go to confession, "While God loves us, he does not care about your feelings.  You broke his laws, you sinned, you know it as does He.  Confess, repent and knock it off. 

Matthew 5:48. Am I perfect yet like God is perfect? Do I love others perfectly with no trace of ego? No? Then I’ve done something that needs to be confessed. Only the perfect have nothing to confess.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Spammer

[Fether]

9 hours ago, poptart said:

That's also a failing of many churches here stateside, people are supposed to be educated on these things after baptism as children.  Know you guys do things a bit differently but that's how it's supposed to go.  If someone's priest/pastor begins to lecture someone who's child just died about the creation of the world and the nature of the Trinity he really, really sucks as a pastor.  That's also the fault of a lot of people nowadays as well, they want the easy way.  Sound doctrine and education fixes a lot of these when followed, something a lot of people both at the clergy and laymen level fail hard at.  

I can’t remember if this was shared here or on another forum, but this may be a worth while read for you. Again, it isn’t an official letter from the church, but rather an article from a person who works for an organization that is funded by the church.

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-4-no-3-2003/what-our-doctrine

[Teancum]

On 7/1/2021 at 10:53 AM, Fether said:

The church leadership and official teachings are more worried about faith, hope, charity, and other things that bring us closer to Christ. A list of the individuals involved in the creation is of moot point. Maybe you can help me understand why such info would be important to nail down doctrinally?

There are countless concepts outside of this in the church that are not officially accepted, but members are allowed to have opinions. I would be happy to make a list if you would like

This approach simply continues to amaze me. The LDS Church has gone to talking about, teaching and highlighting all their unique ideas about God, the Godhead, eternal progression, becoming gods and so on to  milk toast. The dumbing down of what the "official teachings" are is quite the development over the past 25 or so years. I thinks it hurts the church growth. Why would another Christian be interested in  the LDS Church for faith, hope, charity, and other things that bring us closer to Christ?  They already have that.

[Fether]

30 minutes ago, Teancum said:

This approach simply continues to amaze me. The LDS Church has gone to talking about, teaching and highlighting all their unique ideas about God, the Godhead, eternal progression, becoming gods and so on to  milk toast. The dumbing down of what the "official teachings" are is quite the development over the past 25 or so years. I thinks it hurts the church growth. Why would another Christian be interested in  the LDS Church for faith, hope, charity, and other things that bring us closer to Christ?  They already have that.

It is a fairly new occurrence. And I think it has to do with the realization that their intuition and good ideas don't necessitate doctrine (enter Adam God, Blood atonement, requirement of plural marriage for exaltation, and reasons behind blacks not getting the priesthood). The declaration of doctrine should be held more responsibly.
 

That being said, there is still an obscene  amount to learn. Just because the church doesn’t hold it as officially true church doctrine doesn’t mean it isn’t true. again, there is so much to learn outside of the gospel library app and the church encourages it as well as funds a lot of it. But the church also stays in its lane. It’s concern is the eternal life of its members and knowing who was present for role call at the creation, how to tell if a person was valiant in pre earth life, and the species of tree that will be most dominant in Heaven just don’t fall into that area.

In my opinion, the church has more freedom in its teachings to provide more complete answers to our questions. Even the most common and difficult question “why do bad things happen to good people” doesn’t even phase us because of the understanding of our eternal origins, destination, and purpose on earth. Basic Plan of Salvation.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Fether

[secondclasscitizen]

21 minutes ago, Fether said:

Yep, exactly what I said above. The question at hand in this comment was whether there were others. We don’t know of others, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t

Well until they teach there are others who created the earth I’m gonna assume the endowment is telling the truth. It doesn’t even imply there were others it says “Jehova and Michael” 

much like Joseph smiths own hand written version of the first vision explicitly mentions only one personage and that was  “The Lord” and no one else. But here we are with a handful of other versions written by third parties who throw in a couple others present and that information is essentially hearsay, but it is the accepted version. 
 

I get it though.. ur just leaving room for more changes to the story which is reasonable given that seems to be the way the church rolls. Nothing wrong with that.

Edited July 2, 2021 by secondclasscitizen

[poptart]

6 hours ago, Fether said:

It is a fairly new occurrence. And I think it has to do with the realization that their intuition and good ideas don't necessitate doctrine (enter Adam God, Blood atonement, requirement of plural marriage for exaltation, and reasons behind blacks not getting the priesthood). The declaration of doctrine should be held more responsibly.
 

That being said, there is still an obscene  amount to learn. Just because the church doesn’t hold it as officially true church doctrine doesn’t mean it isn’t true. again, there is so much to learn outside of the gospel library app and the church encourages it as well as funds a lot of it. But the church also stays in its lane. It’s concern is the eternal life of its members and knowing who was present for role call at the creation, how to tell if a person was valiant in pre earth life, and the species of tree that will be most dominant in Heaven just don’t fall into that area.

In my opinion, the church has more freedom in its teachings to provide more complete answers to our questions. Even the most common and difficult question “why do bad things happen to good people” doesn’t even phase us because of the understanding of our eternal origins, destination, and purpose on earth. Basic Plan of Salvation.

Just saying, it's answers and attitude like that which would make a trinitarian not believe you and that assuredness come off as smugness.  That's how you end up with eastern Orthodox clergy agreeing with what Putin and the patriarch did and the Latin church and high church Protestants not even bothering.   That's why we keep our doctrine straight, coming off like you are?  We're going to think you're a scammer or worse.  Fortunately, I'm just a true neutral party with a rainbow streak lol

Anyway, just saying.  Know you probably don't think too much of us, keep in mind outside of your world and esp. Outside of the USA where religious freedom for the likes of you isn't so great, that's how you make enemies.  Religious Christian types in this country love to run off their mouths all the time with the blessed are the persecuted for my sake till they go abroad and consequences happen. 

[poptart]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Secondclass and Fether who quoted it, 

FYI from the board guidelines…

 

Huh, first time seeing that, so you really do like a diverse set of people, that's cool. 

Also I never got why people here would post sacred LDS stuff.  Sure, I've seen and heard enough from Jack Mormons and what not, I'm not going to share it out of respect.  I've had to take care of patients with temple garbs, yep I knew what they were and I treated it with the same respect I would anything else considered sacred.  That irritates me, I may dislike a religions followers at times but I'm not going to disrespect their religion and what they consider sacred, that's not cool.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Secondclass and Fether who quoted it, 

FYI from the board guidelines…

 

I did not reference it myself. Sorry for quoting him and not removing that portion

[Fether]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

Just saying, it's answers and attitude like that which would make a trinitarian not believe you and that assuredness come off as smugness.  That's how you end up with eastern Orthodox clergy agreeing with what Putin and the patriarch did and the Latin church and high church Protestants not even bothering.   That's why we keep our doctrine straight, coming off like you are?  We're going to think you're a scammer or worse.  Fortunately, I'm just a true neutral party with a rainbow streak lol

Anyway, just saying.  Know you probably don't think too much of us, keep in mind outside of your world and esp. Outside of the USA where religious freedom for the likes of you isn't so great, that's how you make enemies.  Religious Christian types in this country love to run off their mouths all the time with the blessed are the persecuted for my sake till they go abroad and consequences happen. 

This is fair. The Latter-day Saint view and approach to God and what is important seems to be VERY different than traditional Christianity. I get annoyed in watch debates between Saints and traditional Christians. It is so obvious that the both the doctrinal premises and what is held in importance are not aligned.

 

also, that link I offered above is a VERY good description of what I am trying to portray. It would probably expanded on what I am trying to communicate far more affectively

Edited July 3, 2021 by Fether

[Fether]

3 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

 

I get it though.. ur just leaving room for more changes to the story which is reasonable given that seems to be the way the church rolls. Nothing wrong with that

It also just comes back to the context of what is being taught and the intended audience. 
 

I experienced this just today actually. Some coworkers of mine and I were talking about acts of violence we had seen on our missions. I said “I watched a guy get tackled off his moped and beat senseless on the side of the road.” Left the story there. I didn’t include the fact that there were 3 guys, that one of them took the moped and road off, how I felt afterward, or the wonderful lesson we were riding home from. Me not including those details does not mean they didn’t happen, nor is it reasonable to think they couldn’t have happened.

It’s an arguement of ignorance when one asserts no one else was involved

Edited July 3, 2021 by Fether

[secondclasscitizen]

13 hours ago, Fether said:

I did not reference it myself. Sorry for quoting him and not removing that portion

My apologies for that quote. I wasn’t under the impression it was prohibited for me to post that since the exact same info and more is available at the church website. I didn’t think it was considered to be material which was eyes only for endowed members.  Anyway I meant no harm I mean the church published pic of the temple clothing and garments so I thought nothing of the creation itself. Anyway my mistake and I hope you didn’t get a temp ban like I did. Moving on…
 

and you are right there may have been others involved. I am linked below to the same materiel below which is just actually much more informative.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-1-2-the-creation.p5?lang=eng

 

[poptart]

21 hours ago, Fether said:

This is fair. The Latter-day Saint view and approach to God and what is important seems to be VERY different than traditional Christianity. I get annoyed in watch debates between Saints and traditional Christians. It is so obvious that the both the doctrinal premises and what is held in importance are not aligned.

 

also, that link I offered above is a VERY good description of what I am trying to portray. It would probably expanded on what I am trying to communicate far more affectively

Very much so.  Here's the thing, I'm one of those uncommons who's willing to look past doctrine, dogma and "the rules" And see people for what they are, at least I try and at times fail horribly.  Still, I try.  Anyway, that is why a lot of folks on that end would say you are a different religion.  I find the debates as pointless as well, both sides are different, duh.  Petty bickering is dumb.  Makes more sense for both sides to do their thing and have and if they want to be friends have something like an ecumenical BBQ or something.  Everyone wins that way.

I get it, I think.  Like I said though I'm one of those uncommons, I'm not everyone else. 

[poptart]

8 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

My apologies for that quote. I wasn’t under the impression it was prohibited for me to post that since the exact same info and more is available at the church website. I didn’t think it was considered to be material which was eyes only for endowed members.  Anyway I meant no harm I mean the church published pic of the temple clothing and garments so I thought nothing of the creation itself. Anyway my mistake and I hope you didn’t get a temp ban like I did. Moving on…
 

and you are right there may have been others involved. I am linked below to the same materiel below which is just actually much more informative.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-1-2-the-creation.p5?lang=eng

 

 

21 hours ago, Fether said:

I did not reference it myself. Sorry for quoting him and not removing that portion

I know you guys take promises at your endowment ceremonies to keep those things you see in the temple sacred.  Has the church given up on keeping it that way?  Thanks to the internet and bitter ex members it's not hard to find out about the endowment ceremony. 

I'm single, LGBT and well, have no family that would care if I somehow married a latter day saint, at least family I get along with.  First gf was LDS, thing is she was Japanese so we dodged a lot of the religious politics you see here in the mainland.  I know people gripe about mixed faith marriages, it's not just you guys who have that issue. Quite a bit easier for me to be the casual bystander.

Edited July 3, 2021 by poptart

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, poptart said:

Has the church given up on keeping it that way? 

It doesn’t share the text of the ceremony, but it does give out more info….I am guessing to avoid false ideas and negative biases for those finding info online. For example, they have a video explain garments and temple clothing, though they don’t show even the latter being worn iirc.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

It doesn’t share the text of the ceremony, but it does give out more info….I am guessing to avoid false ideas and negative biases for those finding info online. For example, they have a video explain garments and temple clothing, though they don’t show even the latter being worn iirc.

Ive seen both.  I made a decision long ago if I somehow had either come into my possession I'd store it away safely and just ask a few friends or maybe call up a cousin and ask what to do with it.  Know it's popular nowadays to make a mockery about people's sacred things, society has forgotten what respect is about.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, poptart said:

store it away safely and just ask a few friends or maybe call up a cousin and ask what to do with it.

Assuming instructions have not changed….

Underclothing/garments, you cut out the marks and then destroy the marks by burning or cutting into bits. They are not that big, so very easy.  The material is then to be discarded, not used for rags.
 

I have yet to learn what to do with temple robes.  Endowed members are supposed to be buried in them, so am guessing there are not a huge amount out there looking for a home…so no one I know knows what to do with them.  I have my dad’s as the funeral home provided a set so we wouldn’t have to scramble to find them (Mom was too out of it to deal with reality at that time), but everyone I know already has their own. I am guessing you used to be able to donate to temples that rented them.  Those aren’t as common these days. Maybe someone in the know can speak up so I can get another check mark on my list of dealing with parents’ estate. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Assuming instructions have not changed….

Underclothing/garments, you cut out the marks and then destroy the marks by burning or cutting into bits. They are not that big, so very easy.  The material is then to be discarded, not used for rags.
 

I have yet to learn what to do with temple robes.  Endowed members are supposed to be buried in them, so am guessing there are not a huge amount out there looking for a home…so no one I know knows what to do with them.  I have my dad’s as the funeral home provided a set so we wouldn’t have to scramble to find them (Mom was too out of it to deal with reality at that time), but everyone I know already has their own. I am guessing you used to be able to donate to temples that rented them.  Those aren’t as common these days. Maybe someone in the know can speak up so I can get another check mark on my list of dealing with parents’ estate. 

I'll keep that in mind thanks.

Hmm, sounds like how some orders bury their own.  Dominicans bury laity in habits, was wondering what the lds did. Curious, is it just endowed or those with current recommends?

[Fether]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

I know you guys take promises at your endowment ceremonies to keep those things you see in the temple sacred.  Has the church given up on keeping it that way?  Thanks to the internet and bitter ex members it's not hard to find out about the endowment ceremony. 

The purpose of not sharing it is for sacred reasons, not secret. The church is well aware the sacred temple ordinances are on YouTube. There specific things we promise to keep to ourselves and other things we refrain from sharing just because of the inherent sacredness (though no promises were made to not share them).

Its more a sign of our own devotion and reverence than it is about keeping it a secret.

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, poptart said:

I'll keep that in mind thanks.

Hmm, sounds like how some orders bury their own.  Dominicans bury laity in habits, was wondering what the lds did. Curious, is it just endowed or those with current recommends?

Any endowed, meaning they have gone through the temple endowment ceremony at least once in their lives for themselves, even if inactive. Not excommunicated though, I believe. Though if the family goes ahead and does it, unlikely anyone will protest I am guessing. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Calm

[Fether]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

  I find the debates as pointless as well, both sides are different, duh.  Petty bickering is dumb.  Makes more sense for both sides to do their thing and have and if they want to be friends have something like an ecumenical BBQ or something.  Everyone wins that way

What completely confuses me about the debate world is that our faith relies almost entirely on the fact we have one scripture than just the Bible… then we engage in debates with Christians where the only common source of doctrine is the Bible. 
 

When we are argueing our points of doctrine, we are bound by the limitations of the Bible. Take away the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and modern day prophets, most of our unique doctrines fall on their face. At its VERY best, there is evidence (not proof) of our teachings in singular scriptures in the Bible. It’s like arguing with someone you can make a flying machine, and trying to prove it to them only by throwing a canoe really really hard into the sky.

The only points worth debating are Prophets, authority, and perhaps whether or not there is a true faith. Until there is an agreement there, nothing else should be discussed

Edited July 4, 2021 by Fether