Elohim and the creation

[poptart]

Does the LDS faith teach that it was just Elohim who created the world along with the other two members of the godhead or where there others?  Also, wasn't Elohim at one time mortal?

[poptart]

1 minute ago, Douglas Avans said:

There are a number of different approaches to who Elohim is and none of those approaches is uniquely "LDS".  

My favourite approach to the matter is that taken by Paul and Margaret Toscano.  The Elohim are not the supreme being, Jesus the condescending God is.

is.

>Jesus the condescending god

what?   Also how does that work?  God vs god.  My understanding is since you guys believe in a godhead vs a trinity they're divided so how can part of the godhead be God if they're not one in the same?  Since they're separate persons wouldn't that mean they are gods?  

[Fether]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

Does the LDS faith teach that it was just Elohim who created the world along with the other two members of the godhead or where there others?  Also, wasn't Elohim at one time mortal?

There is evidence that there may have been… but do we teach it?? No. Or at least I don’t believe so. I can’t remember having talked about this ever in an official setting.

what we teach is that God created the Earth and that Jesus (Jehovah) and Adam (Michael) had a role in it. Whether more work was delegated down or not is not taught. But there is room in our faith for either to be true.

1 hour ago, poptart said:

My understanding is since you guys believe in a godhead vs a trinity they're divided so how can part of the godhead be God if they're not one in the same?  Since they're separate persons wouldn't that mean they are gods?  

You can think of it as a title. Jesus, Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit are all God (capital G). Again, this isn’t necessarily TAUGHT in the church, but I have heard scholars and local leaders/teachers describe it this way in their own words

Edited June 30, 2021 by Fether

[Calm]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

Does the LDS faith teach that it was just Elohim who created the world along with the other two members of the godhead or where there others?  Also, wasn't Elohim at one time mortal?

Relevant scripture is Abraham 3 and 4 in the Pearl of Great Price:

Quote

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell…

And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.
3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.
4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

Who this involved besides Abraham, Michael, and Christ is not revealed that I can remember, but if Abraham and Adam/Michael were included, seems likely other great prophets were as well at the very least.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-teacher-manual-2018/the-book-of-abraham/abraham-3-1-28?lang=eng

Quote

• Each spirit child of Heavenly Father differs in intelligence. Jesus Christ is more intelligent than all of Heavenly Father’s spirit children, and His wisdom excels them all. As an individual acquires more light and intelligence they may in time become more like Heavenly Father (see Abraham 3:18–21; see also D&C 88:41; 93:36–37).

• In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father chose His noble and great spirit children to become rulers in His work on earth (see Abraham 3:22–23; see also Romans 8:29; Alma 13:3; D&C 138:55–56).

• Noble and great spirit children of Heavenly Father helped Jesus Christ create the earth (see Abraham 3:24).

As far as God the Father being mortal…there is a teaching “as man is, God once was; as God is, man will become”, but revelation as to what the first entails, I don’t believe there is anything that isn’t ambiguous…such as Jesus saying he did nothing he hadn’t see his Father do. (John 5:19)

Edited June 30, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

There is evidence that there may have been… but do we teach it?? No. Or at least I don’t believe so. I can’t remember having talked about this ever in an official setting.

what we teach is that God created the Earth and that Jesus (Jehovah) and Adam (Michael) had a role in it. Whether more work was delegated down or not is not taught. But there is room in our faith for either to be true.

You can think of it as a title. Jesus, Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit are all God (capital G). Again, this isn’t necessarily TAUGHT in the church, but I have heard scholars and local leaders/teachers describe it this way in their own words

Evidence?  What evidence?

Huh, that is interesting.  So, you guys have have councils with leadership/church scholars over any of this?  It's all revelation from your prophet?  

[poptart]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Relevant scripture is Abraham 3 and 4 in the Pearl of Great Price:

Who this involved besides Abraham, Michael, and Christ is not revealed that I can remember, but if Abraham and Adam/Michael were included, seems likely other great prophets were as well at the very least.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-teacher-manual-2018/the-book-of-abraham/abraham-3-1-28?lang=eng

As far as God the Father being mortal…there is a teaching “as man is, God once was; as God is, man will become”, but revelation as to what the first entails, I don’t believe there is anything that isn’t ambiguous…such as Jesus saying he did nothing he hadn’t see his Father do. (John 5:19)

So, based off that there were other personages besides God the Father involved?  Is there anything from LDS church leadership that expands/clarifies this?  So, creation was a polytheistic thing then?  
How does this work with what's considered official church teachings?  Sounds like it's along the lines of "This is what we know" type of reasoning.  

[Calm]

The links are from the official church website, including scriptures.  I did a search, so I doubt if you will find something official that has more detail.  There have been those who use reason to fill in some of the gaps, but reasoned info is not rated as revealed knowledge in our faith and may not apply to certain topics that can only be discovered through revelation.

Polytheistic…sort of and no…we don’t believe these companions of the Father and Son are gods to be worshiped by us or anyone else as far as we know.  They are not gods in that sense.  In fact, I don’t believe we know for sure in what sense they are to be defined as gods.  It may be simply because they are the offspring of the Father, it may be because they shared some of God’s work, it may be because they share some of the attributes that make God godly.  So I would say we are not polytheistic according to what that word implies to most who use the label.  But if one uses the term to simply mean a belief there is more than one godlike being that exists, since we do believe there is a community that existed with God the Father that Joseph Smith labeled “the Gods” in revealed scripture, one could say we are polytheistic in that sense alone IMO.

But there is a lot of baggage attached to the term, so I think it is best to avoid its use and instead rather than use the label, use the specific details that we have been given that at times gets lumped under the label.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

The links are from the official church website, including scriptures.  I did a search, so I doubt if you will find something official that has more detail.  There have been those who use reason to fill in some of the gaps, but reasoned info is not rated as revealed knowledge in our faith and may not apply to certain topics that can only be discovered through revelation.

Polytheistic…sort of and no…we don’t believe these companions of the Father and Son are gods to be worshiped by us or anyone else as far as we know.  They are not gods in that sense.  In fact, I don’t believe we know for sure in what sense they are to be defined as gods.  It may be simply because they are the offspring of the Father, it may be because they shared some of God’s work, it may be because they share some of the attributes that make God godly.  So I would say we are not polytheistic according to what that word implies to most who use the label.  But if one uses the term to simply mean a belief there is more than one godlike being that exists, since we do believe there is a community that existed with God the Father that Joseph Smith labeled “the Gods” in revealed scripture, one could say we are polytheistic in that sense alone IMO.

But there is a lot of baggage attached to the term, so I think it is best to avoid its use and instead rather than use the label, use the specific details that we have been given that at times gets lumped under the label.

Hence why I asked, figured those were official from the link.  I'm not one to nitpick, I have my own qualms with Christianity in the USA as I've posted about quite a bit.  That being said I could see how others would call you polytheists.  My response to that is I think it's poor form to ridicule LDS teachings when for quite some time now Christians in the USA are content to have little no catechesis or as i've seen woefully inadequate.  Nowadays especially people are content to read off some social media feed, run their mouths off about whatever group they dislike then play the persecution card when it blows up in their face.  You guys have done an amazing job with what you have, your official site is amazing.  The Vaticans site could really use some work, it's like nothing has changed on it in decades.  I blame things like the great awakening for removing the traditions and education requirement from Christianity here stateside, it's really made a rabble out of a lot of the faithful I think, unfortunately.  I'm grateful I have the likes of vid related on my end of the Christian divide, poor guy gets roasted  by his own and he just shines them on.  Not enough of the Christian leadership in this country has addressed the lack of education and doctrine and now they're paying the price.  Correct me if i'm wrong here, your leadership, while going on what they know based on personal revelation from the scriptures, Heavenly Father etc.  They seem to always emphasize what matters, family, community etc. ?  Whenever I've seen elder Holland he pulls no punches, amazing guy.

 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, poptart said:

Correct me if i'm wrong here, your leadership, while going on what they know based on personal revelation from the scriptures, Heavenly Father etc.  They seem to always emphasize what matters, family, community etc. ?

That would be the POV of many, including myself.

2 minutes ago, poptart said:

Whenever I've seen elder Holland he pulls no punches, amazing guy.

Not sure what you mean by “pulls no punches”, but I do get a lot out of his talks and know he is a favorite teacher of many, many members.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

So, based off that there were other personages besides God the Father involved?  Is there anything from LDS church leadership that expands/clarifies this?  So, creation was a polytheistic thing then?  
How does this work with what's considered official church teachings?  Sounds like it's along the lines of "This is what we know" type of reasoning.  

We know little of what or who makes up the Eloiheim. The general consensus in the Church is that it consists of at least one Father and one Mother and that the Father is the dedicated spokesman to humanity on Earth for some reason and is the person we address in prayer. There could be more Mother easily through plural marriage and it is possible there is more going on. More Fathers? Other beings for which we have no frame of reference to understand?

This is probably the best scripture:

26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;
27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;
28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.
29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
30 And also, if there be bounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars—
31 All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times—
32 According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.
33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.

So there is a bit of ‘not sure yet’ in there along with a lot of ‘stay tuned as every answer is coming’.

[poptart]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

That would be the POV of many, including myself.

Not sure what you mean by “pulls no punches”, but I do get a lot out of his talks and know he is a favorite teacher of many, many members.

Pulls no punches as in he doesn't hold back, he says it like it is in the nicest way possible.  Was trying to compliment him.

The USA needs more of this considering the condition many US households are in now.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by poptart

[Calm]

1 minute ago, poptart said:

Pulls no punches as in he doesn't hold back, he says it like it is in the nicest way possible.  Was trying to compliment him.

I agree.   

[poptart]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We know little of what or who makes up the Eloiheim. The general consensus in the Church is that it consists of at least one Father and one Mother and that the Father is the dedicated spokesman to humanity on Earth for some reason and is the person we address in prayer. There could be more Mother easily through plural marriage and it is possible there is more going on. More Fathers? Other beings for which we have no frame of reference to understand?

This is probably the best scripture:

26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;
27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;
28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.
29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
30 And also, if there be bounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars—
31 All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times—
32 According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.
33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.

So there is a bit of ‘not sure yet’ in there along with a lot of ‘stay tuned as every answer is coming’.

Ohh boy that's not Trinitarian lol.  Not like it's a sticking point for me, I like the idea of a Mother.  Someone has to clean up the mess men in general tend to make.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by poptart

[AtlanticMike]

5 hours ago, poptart said:

Since they're separate persons wouldn't that mean they are gods?  

Poptart, if our doctrine is true, there should be billions if not trillions of Gods out there. Also, we believe we are all eternal, at least our intelligence is. Heavenly Father and mother are no "older" than us, but they have progressed I guess you could say faster than we have. 

     If heavenly father is an eternal God and we have the ability to become an eternal God then that means there is no beginning, for any of us. That's probably the number one doctrine we disagree with the rest of Christianity on. 

[poptart]

Just now, AtlanticMike said:

Poptart, if our doctrine is true, there should be billions if not trillions of Gods out there. Also, we believe we are all eternal, at least our intelligence is. Heavenly Father and mother are no "older" than us, but they have progressed I guess you could say faster than we have. 

     If heavenly father is an eternal God and we have the ability to become an eternal God then that means there is no beginning, for any of us. That's probably the number one doctrine we disagree with the rest of Christianity on. 

See, that's why I personally would wonder about Polytheism.  I was exposed to Trinitarianism growing up and well, as far as what Christian base I have that's it.  People here stateside don't understand the wars that were fought over religious doctrine nor seem to care, lack of education I guess.  TBH, that actually sounds like Buddhism, in the case of the higher beings it wasn't following a set of Abrahamic rules/laws, it was removing ignorance and skillful living.  Those kinds of things are difficult for many in this country I think because it acknowledges you are responsible for your own life, you cannot dodge consequences and everything, even the gods are subject to karma.  Even the gods from Europe who likely can trace their roots to the Vedas are all subject to the same cosmic laws.

Also yep, that doctrine of becoming an eternal god is a huge heresy to Trinitarians.  Like I said to calm I think it's poor form to ridicule you guys for it considering how ignorant many "Christians" here stateside are when it comes to their own faith/denomination.  Ask your average Protestant what Justification by faith and works really means and you'll likely get I can do whatever I want and be forgiven, I can sin boldly, if anything at all.  (that's wrong by the way).

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, poptart said:

Ohh boy that's not Trinitarian lol.  Not like it's a sticking point for me, I like the idea of a Mother.  Someone has to clean up the mess men in general tend to make.  

No, it is not Trinidadian by any stretch of the imagination.

Edit: Nor is it Trinitarian.

Edited June 30, 2021 by The Nehor

[poptart]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, it is not Trinidadian by any stretch of the imagination.

Edit: Nor is it Trinitarian.

Had to post this lol.

 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, poptart said:

Had to post this lol.

 

[poptart]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, poptart said:

And what are you going to do about it?

 

Oh, okay, fair enough.

[poptart]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And what are you going to do about it?

 

Oh, okay, fair enough.

Was gonna say could be worse, there' always the Necrons.  To be fair, kinda like them.  

[Fether]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

Evidence?  What evidence?

Evidence, not proof. Just clarifying.

In the book of Abraham, it references “gods” going down to create the world. And I believe the original Hebrew or Aramaic translation of genesis includes a similar reference. I may be wrong. Again, this isn’t taught, some just suggest this was a possibility.

3 hours ago, poptart said:

Huh, that is interesting.  So, you guys have have councils with leadership/church scholars over any of this?  It's all revelation from your prophet?  

No, I didn’t say anything about counsels with leadership or scholar about this.
 

Like any Christian denomination, there are books, articles, symposiums, YouTube channels, etc. from sources outside of official church teachings that talk about this.

I imagine it is similar to me asking you “so Protestants and Catholics believe Jesus was married to Marry Magdalene?” The answer is “no, but some believe it and it is a possibility… but it doesn’t really matter so it isn’t heavily spoken about in church settings” 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Fether

[poptart]

13 hours ago, Fether said:

Evidence, not proof. Just clarifying.

In the book of Abraham, it references “gods” going down to create the world. And I believe the original Hebrew or Aramaic translation of genesis includes a similar reference. I may be wrong. Again, this isn’t taught, some just suggest this was a possibility.

No, I didn’t say anything about counsels with leadership or scholar about this.
 

Like any Christian denomination, there are books, articles, symposiums, YouTube channels, etc. from sources outside of official church teachings that talk about this.

I imagine it is similar to me asking you “so Protestants and Catholics believe Jesus was married to Marry Magdalene?” The answer is “no, but some believe it and it is a possibility… but it doesn’t really matter so it isn’t heavily spoken about in church settings” 

Didn't say you did, that was me asking if you had councils like say, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox (All of them...) and high church Protestants.  For example, the recent meeting of the US council of bishops on the Eucharist.  For me, I'd think matters on the creation, gods/God, etc. would be a bigger deal, you let things like that slide sooner or later you may end up with schisms.  Keep in mind I'm a cultural Christian so matters of faith, the spirit, feelings etc. mean absolutely nothing to me, I am about church law, logic, ethics, politics and power surrounding those things.  At the end of the day those are the things I look at first, after I'm satisfied I start looking at other things such as how it affects the laity, economic/social impact of the area and what not.

Edited July 1, 2021 by poptart

[Fether]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

For me, I'd think matters on the creation, gods/God, etc. would be a bigger deal, you let things like that slide sooner or later you may end up with schisms

The church leadership and official teachings are more worried about faith, hope, charity, and other things that bring us closer to Christ. A list of the individuals involved in the creation is of moot point. Maybe you can help me understand why such info would be important to nail down doctrinally?

There are countless concepts outside of this in the church that are not officially accepted, but members are allowed to have opinions. I would be happy to make a list if you would like

[poptart]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

The church leadership and official teachings are more worried about faith, hope, charity, and other things that bring us closer to Christ. A list of the individuals involved in the creation is of moot point. Maybe you can help me understand why such info would be important to nail down doctrinally?

There are countless concepts outside of this in the church that are not officially accepted, but members are allowed to have opinions. I would be happy to make a list if you would like

I disagree, knowing who was involved in the creation is very important.  Keep in mind we likely live in different worlds, I'm from a Trinitarian background, you are not, we are different in that regard.  In my world, that is of the utmost importance, it lays the foundation for explaining who and what God is, what he did, his Son, the establishment of His church and of course it's spread through the world.  I have no idea how much you know of Trinitarian Christianity, unless that knowledge base is there trying to explain it to someone who only knows Latter Day Saint dogma may be kinda pointless, unless you were to study up on it.  You are right on the point of faith hope and charity.

I would be curious, those points have lead to a lot of the problems the USA has now.  The hundred or so varients of Baptists, evangelical etc who helped spawn a lot of the homophobic, alt right types who wrap themselves in the flag and cross.  Even among Catholics and mainlines there are similar issues, not as bad but still, it's there.