Scrupulosity

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Yes, I was told similar, and the caveat was for appropriate activities, nothing about health concerns. 

As instructed in the temple to use personal inspiration, I would feel inspired to interpret following doctors orders to treat an infection to be an “appropriate activity”, but that’s just me. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by pogi

[Duncan]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

She said it could cause real trauma in “otherwise healthy people”.  In other words no other mental illness.    How milk toast can we get?  Expectations are a part of life.  Responsibility makes the world go round.  Again, if being expected to attend 2-3 hours/week on average (with more rare exceptions), is too traumatizing, how is any otherwise healthy individual going to survive the real world.

I fear for our children

OCD and whatnot can bleed into your non church life, if you think that perfection or someone is controlling you then you can start demanding it off others-Like if your father was demanding of you then you in turn start expecting it from other people, the driver of it (father) is gone but the behaviors continue and can manifest itself in church, work wherever. Someone said if you want to see the Great Depression go to your Grandparents fridge, the depression is over but the behavior of it continues long after

[Tacenda]

42 minutes ago, pogi said:

Then you have some explaining to do.  Why would the expectation to attend church on average around 2-3 hours/week cause real trauma in an otherwise healthy individual who has no problem with the meeting expectations of work/school etc.?  Traumatizing how?

You never know. There were a lot of Saturdays that I was depressed that the next day was Sunday. I don't have that problem anymore now that I'm inactive. Maybe I had anxiety for the individual callings that either asked me to teach, or get up in front of adults as a counselor in a presidency, I've been in 2 Primary presidencies, and 2 RS presidencies. I'm old so I've been in plenty of callings, and I'm one that can embarrass myself very easily. I feel like on occasion I've had some PTSD over remembering those times. You never know how these instances can traumatize a person.

 

 

[Meadowchik]

48 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

As I stated, I believe there is a conversation to be had regards to your concerns. One of my points was to declare I didn't think this is the thread considering the fact that I thought we were talking about scrupulosity. And yes, conflating such overwhelming pathologies with an otherwise healthy individual's underwear allergy struggle runs the risk of being dismissed. And yes, I did ask for your ideas but you did not respond to me but to say we need to be aware. Did I miss your follow-up response?

By the way, I did notice you had nothing to say about my re-orienting comments around scrupulosity not being 'cured' by leaving the church. Is that because scrupulosity really isn't what you want to talk about?

I appreciate that you see this topic as something to be considered, even if you don't see the relevance here.

I do think it is relevant though. My first reply to the topic was

Quote

 

The ideas that this life is a test, that God is judging not only our actions but also our thoughts, and that we must be constantly wary of the influence of Satan and his minions who seek to tempt us and imprison us in chains of sin...these concepts are scrupulous in nature. 

Compare them to being a person who happens to be alive, who has their own life to live as they see fit.

Compare them to simply seeking to live a moral and meaningful life.

Of course Mormonism is not alone in its scrupulousness, neither are religions. All sorts of ideologies perpetuate scrupulosity and vice versa.

 

Scrupulosity, simply put, can be described as religious OCD. It is very much about connected our actions and obedience to worthiness and righteousness. I think that the concepts

1) everything we do is scrutinized by a supernatural judge would can see our thoughts and behaviors

2) every moment we might be vulnerable to the temptations and deceptions of supernatural personalities who want to hurt us

comprise scrupulosity, when taken seriously and acted upon. A healthy person has to work against these concepts in order to not be unhealthy. They have to not think about them sometimes in order to not be consumed by hypervigilance to the ever-present threats to their immortal souls.

Now consider the detailed way that the church expectations can govern a person's life when they are trying in good faith to abide by them.  I think that the detailed expectations and instructions are a symptom of the scrupulosity inherent in these concepts. People believe the concepts and generate a system of compliance that can reassure them of some level of competence. And its specificity is institutionalized and formalized in ways that inhibit individual discretion.  

ETA: To answer your last question, for now, I am satisfied that awareness is a fundamental enough step to focus on. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

 

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

As instructed in the temple to use personal inspiration, I would feel inspired to interpret following doctors orders to treat an infection to be an “appropriate activity”, but that’s just me. 

Right, that's just you. Not everyone acting in good faith has the same brain or experiences.

[Tacenda]

Any of you remember the game Scruples? It came out in the 80's and I remember getting together for a game night with my siblings and someone brought this new game and vaguely remember feeling embarrassed that I didn't answer a question so well. And feeling like I really don't belong with my sibs or feeling like I had trouble with scrupulosity and back then didn't even know what it was really, just remember that when I answered a question, don't remember what it was, feeling like an oddball or something. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Tacenda

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

OCD and whatnot can bleed into your non church life, if you think that perfection or someone is controlling you then you can start demanding it off others-Like if your father was demanding of you then you in turn start expecting it from other people, the driver of it (father) is gone but the behaviors continue and can manifest itself in church, work wherever. Someone said if you want to see the Great Depression go to your Grandparents fridge, the depression is over but the behavior of it continues long after

Yes but someone with OCD is not an “otherwise healthy person”.

[Meadowchik]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

She said it could cause real trauma in “otherwise healthy people”.  In other words no other mental illness.    How milk toast can we get?  Expectations are a part of life.  Responsibility makes the world go round.  Again, if being expected to attend 2-3 hours/week on average (with more rare exceptions), is too traumatizing, how is any otherwise healthy individual going to survive the real world.

I fear for our children

Again, you are dismissing the possibility of situations and lifestyles that you might not understand. You understand that time in a week is finite, correct? You understand that human beings can experience situations or periods in their lives where even 2 hours of meetings can represent a disruption in what they need to do for themselves or others? 

Consider that there are people in the world in vastly different circumstances than you.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Meadowchik

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You never know. There were a lot of Saturdays that I was depressed that the next day was Sunday. I don't have that problem anymore now that I'm inactive. Maybe I had anxiety for the individual callings that either asked me to teach, or get up in front of adults as a counselor in a presidency, I've been in 2 Primary presidencies, and 2 RS presidencies. I'm old so I've been in plenty of callings, and I'm one that can embarrass myself very easily. I feel like on occasion I've had some PTSD over remembering those times. You never know how these instances can traumatize a person.

 

 

Have you been diagnosed with clinical depression, anxiety disorder, or PTSD from attending church?  

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes but someone with OCD is not an “otherwise healthy person”.

someone else's can be the catalyst for you developing your own, unwittingly of course

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Have you been diagnosed with clinical depression, anxiety disorder, or PTSD from attending church?  

My faith crisis should suffice, I went to a therapist once, she didn't help. 

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if you want to see the Great Depression go to your Grandparents fridge,

Side track, but what was that supposed to show out of curiosity?  Empty fridge or packed or something else?

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

someone else's can be the catalyst for you developing your own, unwittingly of course

Explain please (I understand how this might happen in families, how do you see it happening outside of families).

Edited April 30, 2021 by Calm

[Duncan]

Just now, Calm said:

Side track, but what was that supposed to show out of curiosity?  Empty fridge or packed or something else?

a packed fridge!!! they saved everything, bits of butter, plates of peas, end slices of bread galore-they don't want to be caught unawares again

[Duncan]

Just now, Calm said:

Explain please (I understand how this might happen in families, how do you see it happening outside of families).

aggressive bosses at work, military, any type of job. Your boss expects the best, is hard to please and then you become that job and you repeat what you experience, disciplining rather than teaching

[Vanguard]

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I appreciate that you see this topic as something to be considered, even if you don't see the relevance here.

I do think it is relevant though. My first reply to the topic was

Scrupulosity, simply put, can be described as religious OCD. It is very much about connected our actions and obedience to worthiness and righteousness. I think that the concepts

1) everything we do is scrutinized by a supernatural judge would can see our thoughts and behaviors

2) every moment we might be vulnerable to the temptations and deceptions of supernatural personalities who want to hurt us

comprise scrupulosity, when taken seriously and acted upon. A healthy person has to work against these concepts in order to not be unhealthy. They have to not think about them sometimes in order to not be consumed by hypervigilance to the ever-present threats to their immortal souls.

Now consider the detailed way that the church expectations can govern a person's life when they are trying in good faith to abide by them.  I think that the detailed expectations and instructions are a symptom of the scrupulosity inherent in these concepts. People believe the concepts and generate a system of compliance that can reassure them of some level of competence. And its specificity is institutionalized and formalized in ways that inhibit individual discretion.  

ETA: To answer your last question, for now, I am satisfied that awareness is a fundamental enough step to focus on. 

If there were data to suggest an inordinate percentage of active, LDS members diagnosed with OCD - Scrupulosity, then accordingly, you would have a point. I don't believe that's the case (though I have no data to back that up). My experience with IOP treatment of LDS members with OCD ran the gamut of OCD themes - some Scrupulosity, some Harm, some Perfectionism, some 'Just Right', some Illness/Disease, and so on. Though I would agree that an individual with the genetic predisposition for OCD may have a difficult time in the church, there were just as many other members who struggled with other themes having little to do with religiosity. And similarly, at least half of our clientele were not even members. For me, the commentary about our own faith is more about addressing the particular needs of these individuals rather than taking a look globally at ways we should adjust our very core expectations so that the general membership doesn't have to feel guilt.

And finally, yes, awareness is absolutely important. Though beyond this awareness (and hopefully, compassion), I don't see a plan for what should be done. Though I could be wrong, your argument appears to imply that changes to our strictures should be make to accommodate the vulnerabilities of the general membership. If not, then I have misunderstood you. If so, when do we know these changes should stop? Before I am interested in continuing the exchange, I need to know more about what your positions 'end game' is. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

a packed fridge!!! they saved everything, bits of butter, plates of peas, end slices of bread galore-they don't want to be caught unawares again

Got it. Both sets of my grandparents were dramatically affected by the GD, but that wasn’t one of the ways it was shown. We did have to eat everything on our plates, so not a lot of leftovers for one thing (starving kids in Ethiopia iirc would be shattered if I didn’t clean my plate).

[Meadowchik]

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

She said it could cause real trauma in “otherwise healthy people”.  In other words no other mental illness.    How milk toast can we get?  Expectations are a part of life.  Responsibility makes the world go round.  Again, if being expected to attend 2-3 hours/week on average (with more rare exceptions), is too traumatizing, how is any otherwise healthy individual going to survive the real world.

I fear for our children

BTW, when I was a teen, this was often my regular weekly schedule:

1) 3 hours of regular church services

2) 5 hours of early morning seminary (in addition to picking up other students)

3) 1.5 hour of mutual

4) 1-2 ward-level and committee-level meetings with bishop, with YW calling 

Then there were less frequent Stake youth committee meetings, monthly firesides, church dances, other stake youth activities, splits with the missionaries, temple trips, etc...

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

And similarly, at least half of our clientele were not even members.

Where were you located as that affects how we should judge this comment?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

Got it. Both sets of my grandparents were dramatically affected by the GD, but that wasn’t one of the ways it was shown. We did have to eat everything on our plates, so not a lot of leftovers for one thing (starving kids in Ethiopia iirc would be shattered if I didn’t clean my plate).

My parents were too young to remember much about the Depression, but they both grew up in very modest circumstances. Their refrigerator is crammed full of half-empty jars of old condiments, and they kept a fridge (olive green, of course) for a good 40 years. Every time a drawer or shelf would break, Dad would just screw in an L-bracket until most of it was L-brackets. And there was a mark worn into the bottom of the door where you had to kick it to get it to seal properly. Once we were visiting, and my mom told me to get a tub of parmesan cheese out, and I noticed it had expired 13 years before. So, maybe some OCD going on there.

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Again, you are dismissing the possibility of situations and lifestyles that you might not understand. You understand that time in a week is finite, correct? You understand that human beings can experience situations or periods in their lives where even 2 hours of meetings can represent a disruption in what they need to do for themselves or others? 

Consider that there are people in the world in vastly different circumstances than you.

 

If someone can’t give 2-3 hours a week without inducing “real trauma”, than I would submit that church is not the core of the much larger problem we are dealing with here.  I would suggest that 2-3 hours of church is the least of their problems and perhaps one of the best anecdotes to inspire them to create space in their overburdened and mismanaged life to connect with God in the solace of being still.  
 

All evidence suggest that regular church attendance promotes overall well-being as compared to those who dont attend. 

 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

BTW, when I was a teen, this was often my regular weekly schedule:

1) 3 hours of regular church services

2) 5 hours of early morning seminary (in addition to picking up other students)

3) 1.5 hour of mutual

4) 1-2 ward-level and committee-level meetings with bishop, with YW calling 

Then there were less frequent Stake youth committee meetings, monthly firesides, church dances, other stake youth activities, splits with the missionaries, temple trips, etc...

When I was an early teen, we had priesthood meeting in the morning, then a 30-minute break, then Sunday School, and then sacrament meeting in the afternoon. Young Men's was on Tuesday or Wednesday evening, and there was early morning seminary, and usually an activity on Saturday. My sisters were on the swim team at the high school, and I remember both of them being called on the carpet for not attending seminary. 

As an adult, when I had 6 kids at home, I remember being young men's president and then elders quorum president while commuting 90 minutes each way to work and trying to get my master's thesis done. I almost missed my thesis deadline because I was too busy and knew something had to give--it was my thesis. I finally told my bishop I was exhausted and couldn't keep this up. He released me, but I felt more than a little guilt for not being able to "magnify my calling." 

[Meadowchik]

5 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

If there were data to suggest an inordinate percentage of active, LDS members diagnosed with OCD -

Wouldn't that be flawed? It should not just look for LDS outliers, but an association between high-demand ideologies and scrupulosity.

7 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

For me, the commentary about our own faith is more about addressing the particular needs of these individuals rather than taking a look globally at ways we should adjust our very core expectations so that the general membership doesn't have to feel guilt.

No need to eliminate guilt, rather have a healthier relationship with guilt and become less attached to shame.

8 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

And finally, yes, awareness is absolutely important. Though beyond this awareness (and hopefully, compassion), I don't see a plan for what should be done. 

I meant it when I said that I would be satisfied for now with awareness and I agree with you about compassion--I think it would be more automatic given awareness. 

12 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Though I could be wrong, your argument appears to imply that changes to our strictures should be make to accommodate the vulnerabilities of the general membership. If not, then I have misunderstood you. If so, when do we know these changes should stop? Before I am interested in continuing the exchange, I need to know more about what your positions 'end game' is. 

Well, yes, a look at adjusting the strictures would be an obvious response. But frankly I do not know how exactly that could look. Coming from my perspective as a no-longer believing Mormon, in this case I am inclined to trust that there are people in the church, once more aware of these issues, who will find ways to address individual needs and perhaps make global changes sometimes. 

[Vanguard]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Where were you located as that affects how we should judge this comment?

The Wasatch Front

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

If someone can’t give 2-3 hours a week without inducing “real trauma”, than I would submit that church is not the core of the much larger problem we are dealing with here.  I would suggest that 2-3 hours of church is the least of their problems and perhaps one of the best anecdotes to inspire them to create space in their overburdened and mismanaged life to connect with God in the solace of being still.  
 

All evidence suggest that regular church attendance promotes overall well-being as compared to those who dont attend. 

 

Totally disagree. Ever notice how happy people are when they don't have to go to church such as Gen Conf or a catastrophe and they need to go help the neighborhood? Maybe I live in a totally different world than you, but it's usually very apparent that we LDS like to have a church vacation. Maybe not so much now that members won't take attending church in person for granted any longer since Covid.