Demographic time bomb?

[Fair Dinkum]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

One interesting statistic is "New Children of Record." If you told me an organization had 65,440 children born last year, not knowing anything else I'd guess it had about 5.2 million members. Given the Church really claims 16.6 million members, this means the Church's birth rate of 3.9 per thousand is about half of the birth rate of Japan.

In all likelihood, the biggest driver of this is that most of the Church's 16.6 million members either don't self-identify as members or are so inactive that they don't bother having their children become "new children of record" during a pandemic. But still, it gives an indication of how big the Church's core membership really is.

Another way to put the 65,440 new children of record into perspective is to compare it to prior years. In 1975, the Church had 3.6 million members and blessed 79,723 children.

I don't know if we'll see the total membership radically shrink anytime soon. Converts are still the biggest source of new members, not children born into the faith. And if inactive people aren't reporting the birth of their children to the church, are their deaths being reported?

 

This is an easy egg to crack.  Only active participating members have their children blessed thus getting their babies on the records of the church.  With an estimated active membership of 2-3 million those birth numbers make complete sense. Of course the COB knows exactly how many of its claimed 16.5 million members are fully active but that information is a closely held secret available to only those at the top and not for the likes of we mere members at the bottom of the pyramid.  Disclosing that real number would go against us being the fastest growing church in the world narrative.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[poptart]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you mean specific programs, I am not aware of any, but they do encourage everyone to be highly involved and the ministering program would provide great help if people follow through with their callings as much as they can (and let leaders know if they can’t).

Talks, etc on the topic:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/topics/loneliness?lang=eng

Thanks!  This makes sense, other orgs have similar programs, more active you are more happens.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

One interesting statistic is "New Children of Record." If you told me an organization had 65,440 children born last year, not knowing anything else I'd guess it had about 5.2 million members. Given the Church really claims 16.6 million members, this means the Church's birth rate of 3.9 per thousand is about half of the birth rate of Japan.

In all likelihood, the biggest driver of this is that most of the Church's 16.6 million members either don't self-identify as members or are so inactive that they don't bother having their children become "new children of record" during a pandemic. But still, it gives an indication of how big the Church's core membership really is.

Another way to put the 65,440 new children of record into perspective is to compare it to prior years. In 1975, the Church had 3.6 million members and blessed 79,723 children.

I don't know if we'll see the total membership radically shrink anytime soon. Converts are still the biggest source of new members, not children born into the faith. And if inactive people aren't reporting the birth of their children to the church, are their deaths being reported?

 

I have four children.

 

Daughter 1 has two children though she never wanted kids. Hubby did. She agreed.  Both have been blessed. Both parents participate in church but are more social and progressive in their beleifs.

Daughter number 2 has three children.  All three are blessed and one has been baptized.  They are semi active though her hsuband rarely attends.  I think my daughter attends more for her children sake and getting them some religion.  Not sure how believing she is.

Son 1 and child 3.  Not active at all. Has three children.  None have been blessed or baptized.

Daughter number 3 and child 4 is not married.  is not active at all in church.  My guess is unless there is a major change in her life when she has children they will not be blessed.

 

 

[rongo]

21 minutes ago, poptart said:

Social media missions?  What about people who have scant to no social media presence outside of things like LinkedIn?  People have been leaving social media thanks to politics, doxing and the overwhelming toxic people/garbage out there.  I have a few throwaways I use for my own purposes, glad I left when I did.  Anyway, how would missionaries do social media missions?  That just sounds like a bad idea.  You never know who's on the other end, on facebook it's too easy to make yourself look like something you're not.  The stuff that flies for truth on social media is a little scary.

I don't mean social media mission as such. If one is called to, say, the Ohio Toledo Mission, most of what they do is try to find people on Facebook (and now, Instagram). With Covid (but also pre-Covid tracting was being phased out as completely ineffective. I disagree strongly), visiting people is discouraged. 

For missionaries who don't like the social media finding, it is a tough slog. 

[Chum]

4 hours ago, poptart said:

Having a child like that would upset me to no end yet at the same time because of the life I've had to have thanks to a violent alcoholic father

Just yesterday, son 3 of 5 was saying how much he enjoys the shock value of sharing stories about my dad. A gentler favorite is the one about my uncles sneaking onto my grandparents grave site, digging a hole, tossing in my dad's ashes and getting away under cover of darkness.

I have to add - we've been so blessed, by family history work that just keeps adding onto the stories we can tell.

[poptart]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't mean social media mission as such. If one is called to, say, the Ohio Toledo Mission, most of what they do is try to find people on Facebook (and now, Instagram). With Covid (but also pre-Covid tracting was being phased out as completely ineffective. I disagree strongly), visiting people is discouraged. 

For missionaries who don't like the social media finding, it is a tough slog. 

That would explain a few things, I rarely saw missionaries tracting pre covid, not saying it doesn't happen anymore but compared to days gone by it's noticeable.  Just my opinion, besides what I said about how people structure themselves, I do wonder just how much longer people are going to be as "open" on social media as they have been in the past.  Something else i've noticed with social media, a lot of people post far less and have the option to "friend" gone, all you can do is message them.  I can appreciate finding people on social media, you can work through various groups and use the old "every member a missionary" tactic through the investigators friends.  That being said, like I've already mentioned what you can do on social media as far as a fake persona scares me.  You saying that missionaries have a tough slog if they're not social media savvy?  I'd take that as a bad sign.  That would also explain why a lot of the LDS friends I have buy their kids all the latest and greatest toys while trying to get states like Utah to pass legislation banning things like porn etc.  Like social media campaigns, short sighted I think.  There are others who make a similar push like say, Word on Fire ministries etc. but the end goal is you in the parish, in mass not doing things via zoom.

[poptart]

3 minutes ago, Chum said:

Just yesterday, son 3 of 5 was saying how much he enjoys the shock value of sharing stories about my dad. A gentler favorite is the one about my uncles sneaking onto my grandparents grave site, digging a hole, tossing in my dad's ashes and getting away under cover of darkness.

I have to add - we've been so blessed, by family history work that just keeps adding onto the stories we can tell.

Have a few cousins like that in the making.  It pleases me to know once i'm dead my grandfathers line ends with me, they don't deserve to continue.  Seems like people in this country are so quick to ruin their families yet when times like this come they wonder why they're as alone as they are.

[rongo]

Just now, poptart said:

That would explain a few things, I rarely saw missionaries tracting pre covid, not saying it doesn't happen anymore but compared to days gone by it's noticeable.  Just my opinion, besides what I said about how people structure themselves, I do wonder just how much longer people are going to be as "open" on social media as they have been in the past.  Something else i've noticed with social media, a lot of people post far less and have the option to "friend" gone, all you can do is message them.  I can appreciate finding people on social media, you can work through various groups and use the old "every member a missionary" tactic through the investigators friends.  That being said, like I've already mentioned what you can do on social media as far as a fake persona scares me.  You saying that missionaries have a tough slog if they're not social media savvy?  I'd take that as a bad sign.  That would also explain why a lot of the LDS friends I have buy their kids all the latest and greatest toys while trying to get states like Utah to pass legislation banning things like porn etc.  Like social media campaigns, short sighted I think.  There are others who make a similar push like say, Word on Fire ministries etc. but the end goal is you in the parish, in mass not doing things via zoom.

I don't mind it as an option, a tool, one of many in the toolbox. But, I think we're really missing out on the "branding" of just seeing missionaries around on foot, or on their bikes, and talking to people. It gets noticed (kids at my old high school called the missionaries "The Schwinn Twins"), and it's a visible part of what leads to people ultimately deciding to talk to them themselves. People gawk at me talking to them in front of my house, and it reminds me of people saying "Not interested!" but being intensely interested at the conversation with the doors beneath them (people often "stalked" us down the stairwell, especially if we were having extended conversations. And if someone let us in!). 

They now spend a-l-o-t of time at the church buildings, "finding." 

[poptart]

9 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't mind it as an option, a tool, one of many in the toolbox. But, I think we're really missing out on the "branding" of just seeing missionaries around on foot, or on their bikes, and talking to people. It gets noticed (kids at my old high school called the missionaries "The Schwinn Twins"), and it's a visible part of what leads to people ultimately deciding to talk to them themselves. People gawk at me talking to them in front of my house, and it reminds me of people saying "Not interested!" but being intensely interested at the conversation with the doors beneath them (people often "stalked" us down the stairwell, especially if we were having extended conversations. And if someone let us in!). 

They now spend a-l-o-t of time at the church buildings, "finding." 

That's ok, a tool in the tool box vs being the only tool you use.  Here's what would bother be if I was in the LDS fold and looking to the future, what kind of people will you bring in?  I'll go with the Catholics on this, people like Bishop Barron are out there with the goal of casting as wide a net as possible and getting people in church, he just had another AMA on reddit.  I'd think missionaries and/or the powers that be would consider something like that?  I'll try not to sound like i'm stereotyping here but if online finding is the main thing your missionaries are doing, you're going to end up with more suburbanites, the kind that have been stereotyped a lot as of late.  (Trying to not use "karen/ken/chad here...) and that's it.  Would make sense to me to try to widen the net.  In my world a lot of us scattered when the doxing started happening a few years ago, especially after the 2016 elections.  We left a lot of our old online communities and went to various discords, etc.  Not sure if you're involved in any of those online communities, you think facebook groups are clickish try those, we tend to attract a certain kind of person.  Flip side is, we also have access to things a lot of folks don't, I got to see live streams of that independent zone thing they set up in seattle plus steaming footage of the Amazon Go store getting sacked, also riot footage in Portland.  Point i'm getting at, would make more sense to still emphasize IRL meetings with people.  Especially nowdays with people being as isolated as they are, a ward BBQ with likeminded people, missionary and non missionary would be neat.  Do you have any idea how many isolated people out there may go for that, the chance to just be around decent people who aren't out there to screw them over, share a meal and hear that someone like Jesus cares and so do they?  I dunno, to me the whole online thing really is a bit of a symptom of how bad things are getting.  Just my opinion.

[Chum]

1 minute ago, poptart said:

Have a few cousins like that in the making.  It pleases me to know once i'm dead my grandfathers line ends with me, they don't deserve to continue.  Seems like people in this country are so quick to ruin their families yet when times like this come they wonder why they're as alone as they are.

My siblings have a mixed bag of results. One brother is estranged from his children. One fathered a child w/ a married woman but fortunately moved away before he could influence that boy's life. That mom promptly remarried and they're raising him as their own.

My sons and I all get on very well together. I've put my own abusive parenting (much curtailed) onto the table in a way that isn't an anchor around their necks. I've offered what guidance I can - eg: it's reasonable and healthy to be angry at me and their mom. My job is to be as receptive and inviting as I can to their needs  Sometimes they make fun of me for my bad behavior, which is really positive.

I've an older half sister who has a fantastic relationship with her kids. Her mom booted my dad out before their child was born and minimized what contact he could have. I've a younger half sister who has different levels of estrangement with her siblings. Their day to day can be heartbreaking to hear. Apparently my dad refined his skills along the way. That sister didn't have kids.

[poptart]

26 minutes ago, Chum said:

My siblings have a mixed bag of results. One brother is estranged from his children. One fathered a child w/ a married woman but fortunately moved away before he could influence that boy's life. That mom promptly remarried and they're raising him as their own.

My sons and I all get on very well together. I've put my own abusive parenting (much curtailed) onto the table in a way that isn't an anchor around their necks. I've offered what guidance I can - eg: it's reasonable and healthy to be angry at me and their mom. My job is to be as receptive and inviting as I can to their needs  Sometimes they make fun of me for my bad behavior, which is really positive.

I've an older half sister who has a fantastic relationship with her kids. Her mom booted my dad out before their child was born and minimized what contact he could have. I've a younger half sister who has different levels of estrangement with her siblings. Their day to day can be heartbreaking to hear. Apparently my dad refined his skills along the way. That sister didn't have kids.

You would understand why many people like me opt out of having children, besides lack of resources I have no idea what a stable father is like.  I know of them but actually being one?  Different story.  I've heard it all, you can overcome, you can break the cycle, you can do this and this and this etc.  Of course that's without support and constant judgement from privileged people.  I've known of men who made it happen, thing is that was at a time when things were cheaper, there were still factory jobs and well, Churches still emphasized family values.  One guy I knew married into good Catholic farmer stock, he put his horrible childhood behind him and manned up. Thing is, his wife came from a stable family and well, the good things she brought to the table motivated him to be the man he is.  I never had that, I had to fight family in court and as i've said here before it took my fathers death from cancer to make it stop.  No one came to the rescue, no one cared so I did what I had to.  Big surprise I have no interest in family life as it is here stateside.  I have to be very careful about the situations i'm in, a lot of things can and will trigger me and as in the past, no one will likely care.  Considering how bad things are getting, I don't regret my choices to live the way I do, we're now seeing the African proverb of the scorned child returning as a violent adult to burn the village play out in real life.

[Chum]

19 minutes ago, poptart said:

You would understand why many people like me opt out of having children, besides lack of resources I have no idea what a stable father is like.  I know of them but actually being one?

I do understand. To a degree I may be privileged in that I could leverage some of my weaknesses. One example is that I often don't feel shame when it is expected. This obviously enabled my abuse behavior but it also allowed me to analyze and correct my behavior w/o that burden - bearing in mind that shame is usually harmful because we rarely target it.  There were also times when I deduced I needed to feel shame and worked hard to put myself in a place to experience it.

[Chum]

28 minutes ago, poptart said:

I've known of men who made it happen, thing is that was at a time when things were cheaper, there were still factory jobs and well, Churches still emphasized family values.  One guy I knew married into good Catholic farmer stock, he put his horrible childhood behind him and manned up. Thing is, his wife came from a stable family and well, the good things she brought to the table motivated him to be the man he is. 

My parents served in WWII and I grew up wrapped inside of that generation. The best of those men were terrible and none of them changed in a meaningful way. They varied from devout to agnostic. However their wives also grew up under abusive fathers (which is usually how this works).

It may be that an emotionally strong and healthy spouse may make the difference but it in my experience they know to stay clear of the likes of my kin.

[poptart]

21 minutes ago, Chum said:

I do understand. To a degree I may be privileged in that I could leverage some of my weaknesses. One example is that I often don't feel shame when it is expected. This obviously enabled my abuse behavior but it also allowed me to analyze and correct my behavior w/o that burden - bearing in mind that shame is usually harmful because we rarely target it.  There were also times when I deduced I needed to feel shame and worked hard to put myself in a place to experience it.

I tend not to feel a whole lot of shame, what I do feel is anger, indignation and of course joy when people I dislike suffer.  Needless to say I spent my time last year watching live streams of riots, popcorn in front of me.

 

12 minutes ago, Chum said:

My parents served in WWII and I grew up wrapped inside of that generation. The best of those men were terrible and none of them changed in a meaningful way. They varied from devout to agnostic. However their wives also grew up under abusive fathers (which is usually how this works).

It may be that an emotionally strong and healthy spouse may make the difference but it in my experience they know to stay clear of the likes of my kin.

Ahh, the greatest generation.  Most have no idea just how messed up they were when they came home.

That was the thing, my friend was strong enough mentally and had foster parents step in to help fix things, most people never get that.  Also yep, the stable people out there do know better than to mix with the disfunctional.  Problem is, the disfunctional now outnumber and outnumber the fortunate stable.  People talk about how traditional Christians have more children, what they leave out is the stable communities and resources it takes to make that happen are becoming very scarce.  Look at L.America, tons of well off Trad Catholic families, thing is not only are they surrounded by oceans of poverty and crime, it's a constant struggle to keep what they have.  People here can't fathom the bad times we're about to have, it's not part of the contemporary American cultural experience, yet.  Way I see it, this is on the stable privileged people to fix as they stand to lose the most, the likes of me will just sit back and watch as it all collapses.  We have nothing to lose nor any good reason to care about most of the current events.  Doesn't affect us and well, we did have backs turned on us first.

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by poptart

[Chum]

44 minutes ago, poptart said:

Big surprise I have no interest in family life as it is here stateside. Considering how bad things are getting, I don't regret my choices to live the way I do,

I have a sincere respect for people who did the math and opted out of parenthood. No small amount is due to the emotional cost that may come in later years.

I want to be clear that my respect isn't a facade for a cautionary tale (yeah I respect them but just LOOK at the price they paid) - because seriously, that's just crap.

[Chum]

18 minutes ago, poptart said:

Ahh, the greatest generation.  Most have no idea just how messed up they were when they came home.

I'd like to interject that I don't know any good men who went to war and came out as bad men. What I saw was bad men go in and damaged bad men come back. Likewise I saw good men go in and damaged good men get returned to us.  Most of the latter I saw from our recent forever wars.

edit: In this context, bad applies to men who mistreated their families, either thru neglect and/or consistent, overt mistreatment.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Chum

[Chum]

22 minutes ago, poptart said:

Problem is, the dysfunctional now outnumber and outnumber the fortunate stable. 

I'm hesitant to accept this on it's face. One reason is I've seen far more capability from from the last few generations of youth than from my generation - who frankly was more competent overall than my parents (doing more with less opportunity).

My perspective is entirely US-centric because that's all I have.  However, if anything gives me hope it is the above.

[poptart]

56 minutes ago, Chum said:

I have a sincere respect for people who did the math and opted out of parenthood. No small amount is due to the emotional cost that may come in later years.

I want to be clear that my respect isn't a facade for a cautionary tale (yeah I respect them but just LOOK at the price they paid) - because seriously, that's just crap.

Not everyone should breed, genetics aside there are some people who've been through too much and would likely take it out on their children.  There's so much more domestic violence now that goes unreported.

48 minutes ago, Chum said:

I'd like to interject that I don't know any good men who went to war and came out as bad men. What I saw was bad men go in and damaged bad men come back. Likewise I saw good men go in and damaged good men get returned to us.  Most of the latter I saw from our recent forever wars.

edit: In this context, bad applies to men who mistreated their families, either thru neglect and/or consistent, overt mistreatment.

The us military still does the thing where if someones 17 year old is facing jail time they can enlist and avoid it.  Also, the poorest of the poor as well as those in gangs still enlist for material gain and training.  That's nothing new, like many things it's just not talked about.

37 minutes ago, Chum said:

I'm hesitant to accept this on it's face. One reason is I've seen far more capability from from the last few generations of youth than from my generation - who frankly was more competent overall than my parents (doing more with less opportunity).

My perspective is entirely US-centric because that's all I have.  However, if anything gives me hope it is the above.

I think about all the homeless I see now as well as those in out patient mental health facilities and wonder, it's one reason why I think we're seeing some states push to have their voting rights taken away.  People are really starting to vote in blocks again and some states are taking note.  We'll see how that plays out, I look at legislation some states have passed and aren't thinking of the long term effects of big business boycotts will have on their state economy.  God help you if it's a silicone valley giant you've angered, countries have delegates just for silicone valley.  

Anyway, let me rephrase that, functioning disfunctional.  I can work, pay taxes and not cause trouble.  When I say fortunate stable i'm refering to the privileged who have nice families and live in comfy suburbs, they are quickly becoming a minority and in some states are outvoted hence white flight.  I agree with you, younger generations are more capable, they had to make do with less and adapt or perish.  A lot of us did that and as people on the Christian end of things are seeing our numbers either leave or never get involved in Christian church life as well as fraternities.  Older generations had better economic times, cheaper goods and a stronger dollar.  My generation grew up knowing we'd likely not see social security.  Big suprise after the last recession we started to distrust institutions far quicker than the hippies in the 60s did.  I've been quite surprised by how quickly my generation not only figured out and adapted to things, a lot of us have become quite clever at putting up a good facade.  My IT buddies on social media have LGBT/BLM things plastered all over their facebook walls.  None of us really care, it's just so we can blend in and if someone gives us issues take screencaps of what they've said and done incase work place drama comes up.  Shame that's how things are nowadays, is what it is.  

Edited April 26, 2021 by poptart

[Robert F. Smith]

The Bureau of the Census has just announced that the state with the highest rate of increase in population is Utah at 18.4% growth since 2010. 

 

[CA Steve]

11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The Bureau of the Census has just announced that the state with the highest rate of increase in population is Utah at 18.4% growth since 2010. 

This does not surprise me at all. It seems like everyone I know in the ward here is Ca is retiring to Utah. I don't get it. I have been up there a few times in the last couple of years and frankly it reminded me of how crowded it is here in Ca  but with worse weather and freeways. (That interchange at Thanksgiving Point is ridiculous!) And housing prices rival ours! If house prices in Utah keep going the way they are, people there will soon start selling and moving to Ca just to afford a house. 😮

Edited April 26, 2021 by CA Steve

[poptart]

30 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

This does not surprise me at all. It seems like everyone I know in the ward here is Ca is retiring to Utah. I don't get it. I have been up there a few times in the last couple of years and frankly it reminded me of how crowded it is here in Ca  but with worse weather and freeways. (That interchange at Thanksgiving Point is ridiculous!) And housing prices rival ours! If house prices in Utah keep going the way they are, people there will soon start selling and moving to Ca just to afford a house. 😮

What are property taxes like, for retirees that's a big thing.  Here in CO they keep trying to get rid of the tabor act which keeps the state from jacking up taxes.  People don't realize just how low property taxes here are relative to say, the midwest and other states.  I do think sooner or later they'll manage to get rid of the Tabor act for all the stuff transplants keep demanding.  Scary thing is CO, like say, WY doesn't have the resources to pay for it all, that and unlike other states wages here suck.  Financial people already had the eastern slope pegged at about 8-10 years before things get bad, covid sped it up.  

[poptart]

21 hours ago, Chum said:

My parents served in WWII and I grew up wrapped inside of that generation. The best of those men were terrible and none of them changed in a meaningful way. They varied from devout to agnostic. However their wives also grew up under abusive fathers (which is usually how this works).

It may be that an emotionally strong and healthy spouse may make the difference but it in my experience they know to stay clear of the likes of my kin.

Wanted to ask, how were you and others like you treated in your ward?  I have issues but it's something that's happened to not only me but millions of others who fell on bad times thanks to bad families.  I get it, no one wants the messed up people being a stain on their privileged lives but considering how many of us the privileged tend to make, I have to wonder if it dawns on people if they did like Jesus did with his apostles that they could be the ones to either have a hand in ending dysfunction and help create a faithful Christian or if they have children a new Christian family.   I know Christians in this country like to spout on about how they have the most children, what they chose to ignore is how the poor are often shunned and as adults they spread their dislike of the church to those around them thus creating problems like we have now.  Would be nice to know there are still people in wards that actually try to help people like us vs just judge and step on them.  Outside of what's left of WASP Christian suburbia, Christianity is still to some the opium of the masses, one that really doesn't do what it used to and is being substituted by other things.

Edited April 27, 2021 by poptart

[Chum]

6 hours ago, poptart said:

Wanted to ask, how were you and others like you treated in your ward?  I have issues but it's something that's happened to not only me but millions of others who fell on bad times thanks to bad families. 

I don't know how to answer that. If you mean how was my birth family treated, I'm the only member. In my 20s, my wife and I moved 1k mi away to live near her parents, who are members. That's when I converted.

If you mean people who grew up with abusive WWII vets:  I'm a GenX'r, the only one I know with Silent Gen parents. All the rest are boomers and I feel like they and I come from diff realities. I don't think there's anyone in the ward like me.

If you mean how did my ward treat folks from poor or abused backgrounds: Well, there is affection but not the sort of trust that builds deep relationships. I believe it is because the ward has been dominated by a small handful of families for decades. Many, folks move in, stay for some years then move on.

There have been some exceptions. There was an older sister who looked out for my wife as her mental illness was progressing. When MI became full blown psychosis in 2009, that sister was the only person I remember having contact with us - even tho we were were always super active.

I think a good example is the time my wife stole my van. She gave it to a drifter who totaled it. It was our only vehicle (I was without for a year and lost most of my work). Some stranger called me at 3am saying he found my wife miles from anywhere, wrapped in a towel, obviously delusional. The next morning I emailed to the bishop, so he'd be aware. I wasn't upset or asking for anything. It was just because I know bishops want to know this stuff (home teachers are rare).

The email had to be interesting reading. However I never heard back from him or anyone and that didn't surprise me. That wasn't so much about him (I did and really do like him) it's just exactly how our ward is.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Chum

[poptart]

22 minutes ago, Chum said:

I don't know how to answer that. If you mean how was my birth family treated, I'm the only member. In my 20s, my wife and I moved 1k mi away to live near her parents, who are members. That's when I converted.

If you mean people who grew up with abusive WWII vets:  I'm a GenX'r, the only one I know with Silent Gen parents. All the rest are boomers and I feel like they and I come from diff realities. I don't think there's anyone in the ward like me.

If you mean how did my ward treat folks from poor or abused backgrounds: Well, there is affection but not the sort of trust that builds deep relationships. I believe it is because the ward has been dominated by a small handful of families for decades. Many, folks move in, stay for some years then move on.

There have been some exceptions. There was an older sister who looked out for my wife as her mental illness was progressing. When MI became full blown psychosis in 2009, that sister was the only person I remember having contact with us - even tho we were were always super active.

I think a good example is the time my wife stole my van. She gave it to a drifter who totaled it. It was our only vehicle (I was without for a year and lost most of my work). Some stranger called me at 3am saying he found my wife miles from anywhere, wrapped in a towel, obviously delusional. The next morning I emailed to the bishop, so he'd be aware. I wasn't upset or asking for anything. It was just because I know bishops want to know this stuff (home teachers are rare).

The email had to be interesting reading. However I never heard back from him or anyone and that didn't surprise me. That wasn't so much about him (I did and really do like him) it's just exactly how our ward is.

Huh, interesting.  One of my friends did that except his wife's family is Catholic, he never converted but loves the Mormons for the same reasons I do.  Also, there is no one in his wifes family like him.  See, that's kind of how Christianity spread besides conquest, stories like yours.  I've never been a huge fan of Christian churches mostly due to poor treatment.  People will happily spout that's just my experience, try going through poverty and abuse like I did, see how you like it.  Think that's why I tend to see Christianity in this country through a Marxist and Machiavellian lens.

Interesting, is it a small town?  That's common, lots of those places are very leery of outsiders, my friend went through that.  Culture, values and the habit folks from the city have of exploiting the nicer variety of people rural areas have, happy you had at least one sister.  I remember my god parents, when life happened and I needed help, crickets.  It's rare but when help is there, it's a godsend.  Hope you get along with the inlaws.  

Mental illness sucks, seen my share of it working in various facilities.  Wish the USA did more to care for them, it's scary just how many mentally ill people there are out there who are homeless.  People don't talk about this, homelessness makes mental illness and substance abuse issues so much worse, telling them to yank themselves up by the bootstraps is like trying to grab the reflection of a moon in the water, thinking it's that small and you can hold it.

[Chum]

6 minutes ago, poptart said:

Interesting, is it a small town?  That's common, lots of those places are very leery of outsiders, my friend went through that. 

Hope you get along with the inlaws.  

Mental illness sucks, seen my share of it working in various facilities.  Wish the USA did more to care for them, it's scary just how many mentally ill people there are out there who are homeless. 

People don't talk about this, homelessness makes mental illness and substance abuse issues so much worse, telling them to yank themselves up by the bootstraps is like trying to grab the reflection of a moon in the water, thinking it's that small and you can hold it.

It's the next county out from a metro area. Half million dollar homes on one side and half worn-out trailers and farmland on the other and sprawl in-between. Our ward is boundary is everything but the high dollar homes.

I do get on with my in-laws. It's been a complicated relationship with everyone treating each other better and worse than we deserve. I could have done much worse.

My wife (now ex) left us to join the massive nearby homeless community.  One time she was gone for a few days and then we saw her on the news, living in a tent. Her and her bf are squatting in a foreclosure. They have the power on and take good care of it. Local PD recognizes them as the tenets. The bf is a good guy but has his own struggles. We're trying to help them make a go of it.

Living adjacent to so many homeless has helped me better understand their reality. In my teens, I was homeless for half a year and that didn't at all reflect the lives of the folks here. Their average age is twice what mine was and most have been trapped for a very long time. The vast, vast majority struggle with mental illness and this is one of those states that's overtly hostile toward helping vulnerable people. Our county leadership are somewhat better people but local resources are a pinprick against the need.

And here's where it gets really hard. My ex has SS disability and is ex-mil so she has Medicaid, Medicare and full access to the bet VA in the nation. What she's always needed is extended, recurring in-patient care and that doesn't exist anywhere in the US except for zillionaires. And before someone brings it up, the hell-holes that emptied out in the 1980s wouldn't have helped her.  The state actually still has a few but patients and staff alike die there with regularity.