Calm Posted March 11, 2021 Posted March 11, 2021 14 hours ago, The Nehor said: There is a marginal advantage in some areas for about a year after hormone treatment. Do you see bone density and muscle strength as only marginal advantages because from the research I am seeing, there isn’t a significant change? 1
juliann Posted March 11, 2021 Posted March 11, 2021 15 hours ago, The Nehor said: Yes, all that harm. I did a bit of a deep dive into that and found that in most every case the supposed harm was unverifiable anecdotes. There is a marginal advantage in some areas for about a year after hormone treatment. The idea there is a huge mismatch has been repeated so often that people take it as proven. The practice seems to be a running theme of this era. Every time a transwoman wins a competition it is held up as “unfair” but when they lose no one explains how they lost with such an inherent advantage. What in the world are you reading to come to that conclusion? One merely has to look at the pictures to see the inherent body advantage. What usually happens is that testosterone becomes the focus when that is not the major component. Transwomen will always have more lung capacity, size, muscle firing, bone density, etc. Unless children are transitioned before puberty, there will be an unfair advantage. The problem is that any discussion of demonstrable physical advantages can be turned into an attack on transwomen....which, of course, inhibits research. It is two separate topics, each important. The only resolution I can see is to have transgender sports. https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20201216/transgender-women-outpace-cisgender-women-in-athletic-tests-after-1-year-on-hormones Quote This study adds to growing evidence beyond the proven male physical advantage of 10% to 15% in sports requiring power or endurance and up to 50% where explosive power or complex movement skills are pivotal (Handelsman DJ, et al. Endocr Rev. 2018;doi:10.1210/er.2018-00020). These sex-based benefits in muscle, bone, cardiorespiratory function and blood hemoglobin originate with male puberty, which increases testosterone production 20-fold in men compared with children and women. Barring disease or suppressive drugs, adult male circulating testosterone concentrations maintain a cumulative androgenic advantage. These testosterone-mediated physiologic advantages form the basis for exclusion of male-bodied athletes from most female events other than before puberty or in sports not requiring intense physical demands, such as chess where open competition is logical, inclusive and fair. 1
Ahab Posted March 11, 2021 Posted March 11, 2021 On 2/27/2021 at 9:13 AM, Anonymous Mormon said: The Equality Act just passed the House again and is headed to the Senate. This makes me wonder, if it passes in its current form in the Senate, what specific real-world impact would it have on the Church (and the Church's appendages such as BYU)? What are specific real-world scenarios we would expect to see with its passing that will influence church policy, members, and institutions? IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not interested in people's opinions about the Church's stance on the Equality Act or LGBT issues - that was already hashed out here:https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71857-church-statement-on-equality-act/ (and I doubt anyone has changed their views) If you want to talk about your feelings and opinions on whether the church is right or wrong on LGTB issues, start a new thread please. This thread is only intended to discuss real-world impacts that this specific legislation would / could have on the church if it passes. Thanks! "The Equality Act would amend the 1964 Civil Rights Act to explicitly prevent discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity." If I understand correctly, that would mean that where the Civil Rights act applies, individuals and institutions would be legally compelled to give everyone everything they would give to anyone regardless of race, skin color, ethnic background, religion, sexual orientation, gender, or gender identity. That if an individual or institution that is legally compelled to adhere to the Civil Rights act offered to make a wedding cake for anyone, for example, that individual or institution would be legally compelled to make a wedding cake for anyone regardless of race, skin color, ethnic background, religion, sexual orientation, gender, or gender identity. No more of the "I will do this for these kinds of people but not for you or your kind of people" mentality, under the law.
The Nehor Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 5 hours ago, juliann said: What in the world are you reading to come to that conclusion? One merely has to look at the pictures to see the inherent body advantage. What usually happens is that testosterone becomes the focus when that is not the major component. Transwomen will always have more lung capacity, size, muscle firing, bone density, etc. Unless children are transitioned before puberty, there will be an unfair advantage. The problem is that any discussion of demonstrable physical advantages can be turned into an attack on transwomen....which, of course, inhibits research. It is two separate topics, each important. The only resolution I can see is to have transgender sports. https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20201216/transgender-women-outpace-cisgender-women-in-athletic-tests-after-1-year-on-hormones Having a transgender sports league is completely impractical. There just aren't enough people transitioning and many of them won't play sports anyways. The problem I have with the talk of this 'being an advantage' is that it is so arbitrary. We like to pretend that star athletes get there due to grit and determination but the number of things that modify performance are just legion. The other day I was reading an article about how height is a disadvantage in professional weight lifting but we don't bias results or demand separate teams. The reality is that at the very top of every non-team athletic endeavor the top athletes are the ones with the best genetics for the activity. It is not that they don't practice hard or work hard but so is everyone else. The fair playing field is an illusion from the beginning. I am not getting too upset over one more element of unfairness especially as I believe it is overblown as to the level of unfairness. My solution is to turn athletics in general into a fun and healthy way to pass the time and get rid of the whole competitive thing we seem so obsessed with but my take is probably not very popular. 1
The Nehor Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 9 hours ago, longview said: I read a true story about a team of high school senior ladies that did very well in basketball and went all the way to the championship. After the season was over, the ladies were together for a workout when on a lark they asked the freshmen boys for a game. The boys wiped the floor with them. https://www.theepochtimes.com/south-dakota-senate-passes-bill-to-ban-biological-males-in-girls-sports_3725551.html "The bill is titled “Promote Continued Fairness in Women’s Sports” and was passed in the House on Feb. 24. It was introduced by Rhonda Milstead, a Republican member of the South Dakota House of Representatives, and Maggie Sutton, a Republican state senator. The bill states that “a team or sport designated as being female is available only to participants who are female, based on their biological sex.” Opponents say the bill will discriminate against transgender girls and transgender women and violate the U.S. Constitution and civil rights laws. Supporters argue that transgender girls naturally have an advantage over those born female. Milstead said it’s not about “excluding anyone from sports.” “This is about including everyone because, for every girl that doesn’t get to play basketball because some male took her place, you’ve displaced that girl,” Milstead said when the State House was discussing the bill, according to the Rapid City Journal. Yeah, that sounds like the Epoch Times. "We want to be fair to women and look at how this team of 13-14 year old boys pasted these 17-18 year old girls." Where is this "true story" documented? I have heard it anecdotally a lot of times but I can't find any data on it other than people saying they saw it. Even if it does exist it is one school. It is an anecdote. Maybe the team was just terrible. Maybe the coach was bad. This whole concern seems based on anecdotal hearsay and what everyone accepts as obviously true. The whole automatic disparity thing also ignores the transgender athletes who are biologically female and identify as male and play on boys teams. Some are winning even before starting testosterone. Shouldn't that be impossible? You can fairly point out that that comment is also anecdotal but where is the real data? I am really curious as to how South Dakota is planning to enforce this. Birth certificates? Visual inspection? Very expensive medical testing? The bill is also stupid grandstanding. It is going to cost the state a fair amount of money to fight this in federal court. It may take a while to get a test case. According to state officials there was only one transgender High School athlete in South Dakota ever and they have graduated. You would think with South Dakota's Covid numbers (#2 state last I checked) they would have more important things to deal with with but guess not.
carbon dioxide Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) On 3/10/2021 at 11:37 AM, longview said: Has anyone seen transgenders (women declaring to have male gender) compete on male teams? I would be very surprised to learn of some! I don't think it would be an issue in most sports. Gymnastics, bowling, golf, and figure skating might be issues but then some might object to calling those real sports. In sports where speed and strength are important, I can't see what are called "trans men" doing well. You can pump a girl with hormones all you want but putting her on the football field with 250 pound guys will probably not end well. Edited March 12, 2021 by carbon dioxide
longview Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 15 hours ago, The Nehor said: I am really curious as to how South Dakota is planning to enforce this. Birth certificates? Visual inspection? Very expensive medical testing? There are simple tests for XX and XY chromosomes. If transgenders need more players for their teams, they can invite tranvestites from Mars - - - poster removed
The Nehor Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 Just now, longview said: There are simple tests for XX and XY chromosomes. If transgenders need more players for their teams, they can invite tranvestites from Mars - - - Do you want to be the one who tells a kid who has always thought of themselves as male or female that they have chromosome abnormalities that make that questionable when everyone is brought in for testing? 2
longview Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 11 hours ago, The Nehor said: Do you want to be the one who tells a kid who has always thought of themselves as male or female that they have chromosome abnormalities that make that questionable when everyone is brought in for testing? Sure. If they have abnormalities then they should be given all the information they need and early as appropriate (without the FAKE subversive science of the left). Overarching all that, the Gospel must lovingly taught with as much wisdom and faith (light and truth and straightforwardness). I would expect when the time comes, Patriarchal blessings will help crystallize things for them.
Tacenda Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 12 hours ago, longview said: There are simple tests for XX and XY chromosomes. If transgenders need more players for their teams, they can invite tranvestites from Mars - - - Maybe if you read this article you may empathize with them more instead of posting carelessly, IMO. https://www.vox.com/2015/6/4/8728977/transgender-bodies
juliann Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 12 hours ago, longview said: There are simple tests for XX and XY chromosomes. If transgenders need more players for their teams, they can invite tranvestites from Mars - - - And this is why we can't have reasonable discussions about transgender matters. Go away. 1
longview Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Maybe if you read this article you may empathize with them more instead of posting carelessly, IMO. https://www.vox.com/2015/6/4/8728977/transgender-bodies Thank you for the article. I agree that it can get very complicated. Foundational decisions must start with the Gospel, the Plan of Happiness, and Proclamation on the Family. Even among fundamental homosexuals (either male or female), there have been relationships (marriages) entered into with both parties having knowledge of their own and the other's orientation but are faithful to God's purposes. They are willing and committed to raising a family with modesty, chastity and meekness in honoring the name of God. They have faith that their spirits and eventual resurrection will fully embody the ideal of Eternal qualification with tremendous happiness and assurance in the top degree of the Celestial Kingdom.
longview Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 21 minutes ago, juliann said: And this is why we can't have reasonable discussions about transgender matters. Go away. Do you think it is appropriate for the government to mandate third bathrooms everywhere for a population of less than 1% of 1%? For forcing women's teams to be subjected to brawny trans males and lose their enjoyment of training and competition with their peers? How do we protect innocent little girls from voyeurs who pretend to be "something" from sneaking into the bathroom?
Tacenda Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 27 minutes ago, longview said: Do you think it is appropriate for the government to mandate third bathrooms everywhere for a population of less than 1% of 1%? For forcing women's teams to be subjected to brawny trans males and lose their enjoyment of training and competition with their peers? How do we protect innocent little girls from voyeurs who pretend to be "something" from sneaking into the bathroom? I don't have a problem sharing with a transvestite. There's a door between us.
The Nehor Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 40 minutes ago, longview said: Do you think it is appropriate for the government to mandate third bathrooms everywhere for a population of less than 1% of 1%? For forcing women's teams to be subjected to brawny trans males and lose their enjoyment of training and competition with their peers? How do we protect innocent little girls from voyeurs who pretend to be "something" from sneaking into the bathroom? I am curious where the hordes of these weirdo males that say they are women to get into locker rooms come from? I mean, seriously. Are there that many boys and/or men that are willing to subject themselves to the ridicule and long-term ramifications of being viewed as transgendered for a cheap thrill? I keep hearing this as a panic thing but where are the accounts of it happening? It is also interesting that virtually no one is worried about weirdo women pretending to be transgendered to creep on guys. Most groups aren’t advocating for a third restroom, just the ability to go to one some people do not want them to go to.
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