Paintings of Prehistoric Horses and Elephants in Colombia

[Rajah Manchou]

A good 10000 years before Jared, but confirmed that South Americans did once know what elephants and horses looked like:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/nov/29/sistine-chapel-of-the-ancients-rock-art-discovered-in-remote-amazon-forest

[Calm]

Quote

Their date is based partly on their depictions of now-extinct ice age animals, such as the mastodon, a prehistoric relative of the elephant that hasn’t roamed South America for at least 12,000 years. There are also images of the palaeolama, an extinct camelid, as well as giant sloths and ice age horses.

Wonder what else was used. 
 

Very fascinating. Hopefully the area can be made safe for much more extensive research and documentation and protection of the site. 

[nuclearfuels]

14 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

A good 10000 years before Jared, but confirmed that South Americans did once know what elephants and horses looked like:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/nov/29/sistine-chapel-of-the-ancients-rock-art-discovered-in-remote-amazon-forest

That is interesting, Rajah.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the most recent sign of elephants roaming Colombia was 12,000 years ago.

Jaredite timeline places their elephants in the Promised Land apx 8,000 years ago. 

Not sure I understand the reasoning from the article: Ice Age was (date), therefore elephants were here in (date), therefore teh date of these drawings and paintintgs is (apx same date)

[Sevenbak]

The article states that the age determination was made because those animals didn't exist here prior to accepted theories.  Talk about the cart driving the (ahem) horse.

What I would like to know is how does such a massive and broad collection of red ochre paint that is out in the open in a humid tropical rainforest, on exposed clif walls, with runoff etc, survive intact for 12000 years.  My son served his mission in the amazon rainforest just south of there. When it rains, as it does often, it's torrential deluge!  Something doesn't pass the smell test...

 

'Some drawings depict long-extinct animals including the mastodon, palaeolama, giant sloths and Ice Age horses, which helped with the dating process, the Guardian reported.'

“We started seeing animals that are now extinct,” team leader and Exeter University archaeology professor José Iriarte told the Guardian. “The pictures are so natural and so well-made that we have few doubts that you’re looking at a horse, for example. The [Ice Age] horse had a wild, heavy face. It’s so detailed, we can even see the horsehair. It’s fascinating.”   https://nypost.com/2020/11/30/thousands-of-ice-age-paintings-discovered-in-amazon-rainforest/

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Sevenbak

[katherine the great]

31 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

What I would like to know is how does such a massive and broad collection of red ochre paint that is out in the open in a humid tropical rainforest, on exposed clif walls, with runoff etc, survive intact for 14000 years.  Something doesn't pass the smell test...

A worked iron artifact will fall apart over time but mineral based pigments are very durable. They aren’t datable though. 
Relative dating based on the fossil record that we have (using index fossils) is probably the only way to really date this. At least that I know of. Sometimes an animal thought to be extinct by such and such a time frame shows up unexpectedly much later. But the odds of all of these creatures in these paintings being wrong are probably pretty slim.

[Sevenbak]

16 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

A worked iron artifact will fall apart over time but mineral based pigments are very durable. They aren’t datable though. 
Relative dating based on the fossil record that we have (using index fossils) is probably the only way to really date this. At least that I know of. Sometimes an animal thought to be extinct by such and such a time frame shows up unexpectedly much later. But the odds of all of these creatures in these paintings being wrong are probably pretty slim.

Sorry, no sale here.   Even with today's highly refined and fortified paints, things out in the open -  houses, bridges, etc, MUST be repainted on a regular basis every 10-20 years.  12000 years out in the open in wet and extreme conditions looking clear and sharp is just improbable.  I've seen red ochre paint on glyphs in the southwest, where it's dry and enclosed, and have been dated to 1000 years ago using fire hearth charcoal and lithic fragments, that have faded compared to more recent rock art.

[katherine the great]

30 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Sorry, no sale here.   Even with today's highly refined and fortified paints, things out in the open -  houses, bridges, etc, MUST be repainted on a regular basis every 10-20 years.  12000 years out in the open in wet and extreme conditions looking clear and sharp is just improbable.  I've seen red ochre paint on glyphs in the southwest, where it's dry and enclosed, and have been dated to 1000 years ago using fire hearth charcoal and lithic fragments, that have faded compared to more recent rock art.

Believe what you like. 

[Sevenbak]

24 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Believe what you like. 

If Behr came out with a 12000 year guarantee on an exterior paint, I'd be a believer.  As it is, I think they do offer a 15 year Warranty.  😉

[smac97]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

That is interesting, Rajah.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the most recent sign of elephants roaming Colombia was 12,000 years ago.

Jaredite timeline places their elephants in the Promised Land apx 8,000 years ago. 

Not sure I understand the reasoning from the article: Ice Age was (date), therefore elephants were here in (date), therefore teh date of these drawings and paintintgs is (apx same date)

I had a similar thought.  I wonder if there is a way to test the age of the artwork.  Carbon dating?

Thanks,

-Smac

[katherine the great]

29 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I had a similar thought.  I wonder if there is a way to test the age of the artwork.  Carbon dating?

Thanks,

-Smac

No. Only organic material can be carbon 14 dated. Some rocks can be dated using other methods but it would only tell you the age of the rock not when the rock was turned into a pigment. 

[katherine the great]

37 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

If Behr came out with a 12000 year guarantee on an exterior paint, I'd be a believer.  As it is, I think they do offer a 15 year Warranty.  😉

If these type of ancient pigments were made in even remotely the same way as modern paint I might agree with you. These are mineral paints. They actually become a part of the rock that they are painted on. 

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

No. Only organic material can be carbon 14 dated. Some rocks can be dated using other methods but it would only tell you the age of the rock not when the rock was turned into a pigment. 

What about these?

The Dating of Rock Art: a Critique (2000 article by Robert Bednarik, discussing dating methods using iconography, style, technique, excavation, proximity, patination and weathering, superimposition).

Rock Art Dating and the Peopling of the Americas (2013 article by David Whitley, discussing "rock varnish dating techniques" and others).

Q&A: "How do archaeologists date cave paintings?" (comments about "uranium series dating" and "X-ray diffraction and Infrared Spectrometry" are interesting).

Defining the age of a rock or cave painting.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

It may not be mineral ochre, but an iron-silica based paint made from bacteria (Leptothrix ochracea) which is very durable for "many hundreds, or possibly thousands of years" according to the article I'm linking. These paintings were found outside, not in caves. "Ancient Indigenous people made durable rock paint from lake goo": https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/dec-7-inflammation-and-the-brain-nasa-visits-the-sun-climate-shrinks-birds-and-more-1.5384229/ancient-indigenous-people-made-durable-rock-paint-from-lake-goo-1.5384249

A lot of what I Google on this subject of outdoor ochre are in Canada, but they include dates between 5,000 and 2,000 years ago, e.g.  https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/thesescanada/vol2/002/MR31702.PDF

But here's one from Africa: "Speaking of suitable rock faces, most of the paintings in Africa are done on walls that are open air (as opposed to paintings in Europe, which are tucked away in caves)" from article, Binding Ochre to Theory:  https://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1120&context=pomona_theses

 

[katherine the great]

46 minutes ago, smac97 said:

What about these?

The Dating of Rock Art: a Critique (2000 article by Robert Bednarik, discussing dating methods using iconography, style, technique, excavation, proximity, patination and weathering, superimposition).

Rock Art Dating and the Peopling of the Americas (2013 article by David Whitley, discussing "rock varnish dating techniques" and others).

Q&A: "How do archaeologists date cave paintings?" (comments about "uranium series dating" and "X-ray diffraction and Infrared Spectrometry" are interesting).

Defining the age of a rock or cave painting.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yes to all of these. Keep in mind that cave paintings are usually quite different in the type of materials and contaminants than are found at this site.  Charcoal can be carbon dated somewhat but this rock art is clearly not charcoal.  Uranium series dating is useless for this type of site. Calcification is common in caves--not so much on inland cliffs.  I'm not as familiar with X-ray diffraction and Infrared Spectrometry but I do know that the head honcho for this project is a world class expert, has a lot of resources at hand and will most definitely utilize every method available to date these paintings, although these methods are destructive by nature so they will have to be very selective about the sample. I'm not completely dismissing the possibility of something more modern since the discovery is so new and difficult to access. This is going to take a long time...

[Sevenbak]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

If these type of ancient pigments were made in even remotely the same way as modern paint I might agree with you. These are mineral paints. They actually become a part of the rock that they are painted on. 

Obviously the Behr paint reference was in jest, but pointing out how paints and finishes fade. I actually am one that tends to give the ancients a lot of credit they don't normally get from scientific circles.  They knew and did a lot more than we typically attribute to them.  But I have seen a ton of faded red ochre rock art (My graduate thesis was about documenting So. Utah rock art) dating to much later time periods and milder climates than these in Columbia, which are largely pristine.  It needs further study.  They look too good to be 12000 years old, exposed in the rainforest.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Sevenbak

[Ahab]

18 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

A good 10000 years before Jared, but confirmed that South Americans did once know what elephants and horses looked like:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/nov/29/sistine-chapel-of-the-ancients-rock-art-discovered-in-remote-amazon-forest

Painted horses.  Red horses.  Upside down horses.  Verrrry interesting.

[pogi]

Were Amazonians known to be large boat builders and ocean sailors?  It looks like the story of at least one ocean voyage made its way deep into the mainland.

Edited December 1, 2020 by pogi

[katherine the great]

25 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

It needs further study.  They look too good to be 12000 years old, exposed in the rainforest.

I agree that they look surprisingly bright. 

[katherine the great]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Were Amazonians known to be large boat builders and ocean sailors?  It looks like the story of at least one ocean voyage made its way deep into the mainland.

Ocean? I don’t see that. 

[katherine the great]

29 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Painted horses.  Red horses.  Upside down horses.  Verrrry interesting.

Merry-go-round?

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Ocean? I don’t see that. 

I could be wrong, but I have personally never seen/heard of ancient inland river boats with sails before.  

Complete with a long pointed bow reminiscent of an ocean sail ship. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by pogi

[katherine the great]

19 minutes ago, pogi said:

I could be wrong, but I have personally never seen/heard of ancient inland river boats with sails before.  

Complete with a long pointed bow reminiscent of an ocean sail ship. 

Well okay. I guess from a certain perspective it could look like a ship. At first glance, the pattern underneath the people kind of looked like waves. But I also see similar patterns in the animals and also just kind of randomly in other parts of the murals. It could be a ship or a boat or some people standing by a river or a woven mat or animal hide under some people. I just don't think its a given that this is an ocean sailing ship. It's hard to tell which images go are meant to go together in a single scene. I'm curious how the indigenous people would interpret it. Although I would hope they would stay far away from the outsiders who are studying it. 

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Well okay. I guess from a certain perspective it could look like a ship. At first glance, the pattern underneath the people kind of looked like waves. But I also see similar patterns in the animals and also just kind of randomly in other parts of the murals. It could be a ship or a boat or some people standing by a river or a woven mat or animal hide under some people. I just don't think its a given that this is an ocean sailing ship. It's hard to tell which images go are meant to go together in a single scene. I'm curious how the indigenous people would interpret it. Although I would hope they would stay far away from the outsiders who are studying it. 

I didn't interpret those as waves, it looks like a form of shading (as it is seen in other animals like you mention) or design on the ship.  

It would be interesting to hear the indigenous perspective, although it may be just as foreign and distant to them as it is to us.  But to me, it looks like the clear form of a ship with rounded edges on the bottom and a flat top and a large left pointing bow with a mast in the front of the ship holding sails.  There is at least one male on the ship (with a rather large body part) and another possible female with their hands up in the air, almost as if worshiping some unidentified figure on the ship.  I can't make out what it is.  It could be a central mast of the ship with what looks like ribbon or rope looping around at the top and bottom, or some creature, or god, or...who knows what!  If I had to place money on it, I would go with sail ship.

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I didn't interpret those as waves, it looks like a form of shading (as it is seen in other animals like you mention) or design on the ship.  

It would be interesting to hear the indigenous perspective, although it may be just as foreign and distant to them as it is to us.  But to me, it looks like the clear form of a ship with rounded edges on the bottom and a flat top and a large left pointing bow with a mast in the front of the ship holding sails.  There is at least one male on the ship (with a rather large body part) and another possible female with their hands up in the air, almost as if worshiping some unidentified figure on the ship.  I can't make out what it is.  It could be a central mast of the ship with what looks like ribbon or rope looping around at the top and bottom, or some creature, or god, or...who knows what!  If I had to place money on it, I would go with sail ship.

It’s hard to interpret art from very foreign cultures sometimes.  Looking at more pictures of those cliffs I see what looks like meter long “man-parts” on some of the male figures. I’m pretty sure that’s not really what they are. 😳 

[pogi]

42 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

It’s hard to interpret art from very foreign cultures sometimes.  Looking at more pictures of those cliffs I see what looks like meter long “man-parts” on some of the male figures. I’m pretty sure that’s not really what they are. 😳 

I had a more inappropriate joke, but will change it to simply - let's hope it isn't an anaconda.  

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by pogi