pogi Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I’ve been paying attention to the frequent updates and news conferences from the task force under Vice President Pence. If and when I see clear indication of mismanagement or neglect, I’ll be right there with you. But so far, I’ve not seen it. Just partisan bellyaching from some who gleefully anticipate the efforts at containment will fail just so it will bring down Trump’s presidency. A reprehensible motive, in my view. Shame on them. During earlier times, we in this country it through periods of war and crisis by pulling together; we need to do the same now. For updates, warnings and advice go to coronavirus.org. It is not partisan anymore. Many on both sides are “bellyaching”. The CDC can’t do their job. They are only testing those who have severe symptoms even though the vast majority don’t have severe symptoms. You don’t see that as a major problem in testing and monitoring the outbreak to allow epidemiologists to do their jobs in trying to get a handle on it! Do you really believe that we are testing adequately? No gaping holes anywhere allowing the virus to be transmitted undetected? Edited March 10, 2020 by pogi
Bernard Gui Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, pogi said: Thank you, but I could care less about party politics. That’s NOT what this is about for me. If I think the monitoring of the virus is being poorly managed are you going to accuse me of “politicizing” an epidemic, or is it just because I mentioned “Trump” specifically? We shouldn’t be silent and pretend like everything is being handled fine, when it is not. This is more about the proper monitoring of a world-wide health epidemic than it is about “politicizing” anything. Our president is a political figure, that is true, but he is also responsible for managing this situation. Is it seriously off limits to talk about how it is being handled? I can see where I may have overstepped in talking about potential political consequences in comparing it to Katrina, but I don’t think that assessing the response is party politics, but I have exited the post to make it less political sounding. Yes, I believe you overstepped. We are so expectant of instant cures, remedies, and solutions that we lose track of reality. At times like this we need to unite in opposing the common threat at the local, state, and national levels. I lived through the polio epidemic. That one was something to fear. No one blamed President Eisenhower. This is not the time to be carping about politics. It serves no purpose other than to erode people's confidence and induce panic. We just shopped for groceries at Walmart. No paper products, not bottled water, no aspirin, Tylenol, or ibuprofen. What if it were a really serious disease? Edited March 10, 2020 by Bernard Gui
Navidad Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Would you also object to talks and songs about Moses, Joseph, Mary, Paul, The Reformers, John the Baptist, etc.? I knew my post would not be popular. However, I don't think I voiced objection to anything. I voiced discomfort... my own personal discomfort, nothing more. To answer your question however, I would also be equally uncomfortable with a worship service talk or hymn focusing on a reformer. I get so confused about this forum. I will remember in the future that expressions of discomfort or uncertainty are not allowed. Oh, and I know it won't matter but if I were a Mennonite pastor I would never schedule a sermon about Menno Simons for a worship service. Why not? Because I would be equally uncomfortable with that. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 10, 2020 Author Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, pogi said: It is not partisan anymore. Many on both sides are “bellyaching”. The CDC can’t do their job. They are only testing those who have severe symptoms even though the vast majority don’t have severe symptoms. You don’t see that as a major problem in testing and monitoring the outbreak to allow epidemiologists to do their jobs in trying to get a handle on it! Do you really believe that we are testing adequately? No gaping holes anywhere allowing the virus to be transmitted undetected? So far, I see a situation in this country that looks pretty good by comparison to elsewhere in the world, largely due to stitch-in-time measures that have already been undertaken. For now, I’m more worried about the panic and it’s impacts on the health of our economy, the availability of goods and supplies, the disruption of normal routines, etc., than I am about the virus itself. Edited March 10, 2020 by Scott Lloyd
pogi Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Yes, I believe you overstepped. We are so expectant of instant cures, remedies, and solutions that we lose track of reality. At times like this we need to unite in opposing the common threat at the local, state, and national levels. I lived through the polio epidemic. No one blamed President Eisenhower. This is not the time to be carping about politics. It serves no purpose other than to erode people's confidence. I am not naive enough to pretend like there are instant solutions, cures etc. I don’t expect any of that. I don’t pretend that Trump can stop this outbreak. But I do expect, at the very least, appropriate monitoring and testing so that people who truly are infected will know it and can be appropriately isolated. We have had way more time to prepare for testing than China ever did and have simply failed to execute it. I don’t blame trump for the outbreak, but I think it would be foolish to not assess the response, just like I am sure we did with the Polio epidemic and made improvements based on those assessments of response.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 10, 2020 Author Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Navidad said: I knew my post would not be popular. However, I don't think I voiced objection to anything. I voiced discomfort... my own personal discomfort, nothing more. To answer your question however, I would also be equally uncomfortable with a worship service talk or hymn focusing on a reformer. I get so confused about this forum. I will remember in the future that expressions of discomfort or uncertainty are not allowed. Oh, and I know it won't matter but if I were a Mennonite pastor I would never schedule a sermon about Menno Simons for a worship service. Why not? Because I would be equally uncomfortable with that. I mentioned the African American spiritual “Dem Bones.” It was only partly in jest. Would I think it appropriate for that to be sung in one of our sacrament meetings? No. But neither would I see occasion for ridicule or contempt if I were to observe it being sung in the worship service of another faith tradition. I would be tolerant, reasonable and respectful, just as I expect others to be with regard to my own faith’s practices, customs, liturgy and hymnody. Edited March 10, 2020 by Scott Lloyd 1
pogi Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: So far, I see a situation in this country that looks pretty good by comparison to elsewhere in the world, largely due to stitch-in-time measures that have already been undertaken. Fir now, I’m more worried about the panic and it’s impacts on the health of our economy, the availability of goods and supplies, the disruption of normal routines, etc., than I am about the virus itself. I agree that the hysteria is concerning too. But if you were one of the unfortunate ones who are resigned to a long term care facility, nursing home, or assisted living facility, the virus would have you scared. I am scared for those who are most vulnerable. We have no idea how close it is to their doors. Are you comparing testing to other countries like China and Italy, etc? Do you think we are really up to par? There is a reason the situation looks better here - it’s because we are not tracking and reporting infections. Things look great in Cambodia too, for the same reasons. But you don’t really trust those numbers do you? Edited March 10, 2020 by pogi
Scott Lloyd Posted March 10, 2020 Author Posted March 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, pogi said: I agree that the hysteria is concerning too. But if you were one of the unfortunate ones who are resigned to a long term care facility, nursing home, or assisted living facility, the virus would have you scared. I am scared for those who are most vulnerable. We have no idea how close it is to their doors. Are you comparing testing to other countries? Do you think we are really up to par? There is a reason the situation looks better here - it’s because we are not tracking and reporting infections. Time will tell if that’s the case. Meanwhile I’m reserving judgment. As for folks who are vulnerable, I’m as concerned about the typical spread of the flu virus as I am with a one-off outbreak that doesn’t appear to be more severe in symptoms or contagion than does the flu that goes around this time of year and which I expect will be contained in due time.
Navidad Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I mentioned the African American spiritual “Dem Bones.” It was only partly in jest. Would I think it appropriate for that to be sung in one of our sacrament meetings? No. But neither would I see occasion for ridicule or contempt if I were to observe it being sung in the worship service of another faith tradition. I would be tolerant, reasonable and respectful, just as I expect others to be with regard to my own faith’s practices, customs, liturgy and hymnody. Hi Scott - I want to learn here. In my post did I come across intolerant, unreasonable, and not respectful? Did I express ridicule or contempt? There are times I certainly think I must have a huge blind spot. Other times I think it is in the LDS Member's DNA or world view to see disrespect, ridicule, contempt, etc. in things, especially from a non-member that in any way demonstrates discomfort with anything related to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If my post came across as intolerant, unreasonable, not respectful, ridiculing and contemptuous of the LDS faith, I apologize to every member on this forum. I in no way meant that. For a low church guy I take a rather high church view of worship and the concept of praise. I acknowledge that. I must admit, perhaps to another round of scorn, that I wish there were a nursery during sacrament service. Sometimes it seems as if the toddlers take control! One Sunday we almost had a toddler pull the cloth off the sacrament table! I know my bishop well enough that up on the stand, when his eyes squint a certain way during the sacrament, he is less than happy with the noise. Please, that is just an observation, not a criticism. On occasion in San Diego I went to the Orthodox service nearby. Some things there made me uncomfortable as well, but oh my it was worshipful. I have always felt that I learn via discomfort. Again, if my comments were contemptuous, I apologize to all. Edited March 10, 2020 by Navidad 1
MiserereNobis Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I recognize that you said nothing negative about Joseph Smith per se. You only said we should not be singing “Praise to the Man” in our worship services. Some of our Church members have the same opinion. They are as wrong in this as you are. As someone who prays regularly to Saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary, I have no issues with "Praise to the Man" (though I do recall mfbukowski, who was a former Catholic, had some discomfort with it). I'd say take it one step further and ask Joseph to intercede for you 1
ksfisher Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 36 minutes ago, pogi said: There is a reason the situation looks better here - it’s because we are not tracking and reporting infections. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-in-us.html https://coronavirus.utah.gov/latest/
pogi Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Time will tell if that’s the case. Meanwhile I’m reserving judgment. As for folks who are vulnerable, I’m as concerned about the typical spread of the flu virus as I am with a one-off outbreak that doesn’t appear to be more severe in symptoms or contagion than does the flu that goes around this time of year and which I expect will be contained in due time. Where are you getting your info? It has much higher fatality rates than the seasonal flu. It is also thought to be more contagious and can be airborne - whereas flu is through droplets. As of March 7 there have been 27 deaths at the nursing facility in Washington since Feb 19. 14 confirmed from Covid. The rest are pending results - not enough test kits - go figure! https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1152306 I have worked at lots of care facilities, assisted living centers, etc. as a home health and hospice nurse. In the several flu seasons I worked, I saw a few flu cases but not one death, let alone 14 in one month! (and possibly as high as 27). Sorry, you just don’t see that kind of contagion and death in nursing homes from seasonal flu. Here’s why, 1) less contagious, 2) less lethal, and 3) we have a vaccine for the flu! Edited March 10, 2020 by pogi 1
pogi Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I'd say take it one step further and ask Joseph to intercede for you We do believe in the ministering of angels after all!
pogi Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, ksfisher said: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-in-us.html https://coronavirus.utah.gov/latest/ What am I looking for here exactly?
Scott Lloyd Posted March 10, 2020 Author Posted March 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Navidad said: Hi Scott - I want to learn here. In my post did I come across intolerant, unreasonable, and not respectful? Did I express ridicule or contempt? There are times I certainly think I must have a huge blind spot. Other times I think it is in the LDS Member's DNA or world view to see disrespect, ridicule, contempt, etc. in things, especially from a non-member that in any way demonstrates discomfort with anything related to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If my post came across as intolerant, unreasonable, not respectful, ridiculing and contemptuous of the LDS faith, I apologize to every member on this forum. I in no way meant that. For a low church guy I take a rather high church view of worship. I acknowledge that. I must admit, perhaps to another round of scorn, that I wish there were a nursery during sacrament service. Sometimes it seems as if the toddlers take control! I know my bishop well enough that up on the stand, when his eyes squint a certain way during the sacrament, he is less than happy with the noise. Please, that is just an observation, not a criticism. On occasion in San Diego I went to the Orthodox service nearby. Some things there made me uncomfortable as well, but oh my it was worshipful. Again, if my comments were contemptuous, I apologize to all. I’m not accusing you of those things. I’m endeavoring to make the broader point that being initially uncomfortable with an element of another’s faith tradition is not necessarily a good reason to look down upon it or to suggest, even subtly, that it be ceased or eliminated. If I were approaching the faith of the Latter-day Saints from the position of an outsider, I hope I would be tolerant in viewing the singing of a hymn like “Praise to the Man” and try to understand the words in their context and try to grasp why it has been so beloved for so long by so many adherents to the faith (my motive, by the way, in posting that talk from President Hinckley).
Navidad Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 2 hours ago, pogi said: Do you mean Peter, Paul, and Mary? I wouldn’t object. I loved Puff the Magic Dragon. I was horrified when someone unkind soul told me it referred to marijuana smoking! I put my twelve-string away! 1
ksfisher Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, pogi said: What am I looking for here exactly? You'd said 46 minutes ago, pogi said: we are not tracking and reporting infections Both the CDC and the Utah Health Dept are tracking infections. Not sure where you are.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 10, 2020 Author Posted March 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: As someone who prays regularly to Saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary, I have no issues with "Praise to the Man" (though I do recall mfbukowski, who was a former Catholic, had some discomfort with it). I'd say take it one step further and ask Joseph to intercede for you I know you say that in jest, but it’s not entirely an alien concept to me. Sometimes my wife will express the sentiment that my departed mother is acting in the hereafter in some way to help our children through life’s challenges. I don’t know how close to reality that is, but it’s a pleasant thought. And personally, I’m not resistant to the idea that the Catholic practice you mention is in some way efficacious.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 10, 2020 Author Posted March 10, 2020 Just now, Navidad said: I loved Puff the Magic Dragon. I was horrified when someone unkind soul told me it referred to marijuana smoking! I put my twelve-string away! Then it should give you some reassurance to know that Peter Yarrow himself, the author and composer of the song, denied that it has any hidden meaning relating to marijuana smoking. He said it’s about a child’s loss as he grows older of the propensity to fantasize and make believe. 4
MiserereNobis Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: I know you say that in jest, but it’s not entirely an alien concept to me. Sometimes my wife will express the sentiment that my departed mother is acting in the hereafter in some way to help our children through life’s challenges. I don’t know how close to reality that is, but it’s a pleasant thought. And personally, I’m not resistant to the idea that the Catholic practice you mention is in some way efficacious. I thought about adding more to my post, but I didn't want to derail an already derailed thread. I look at the practice of intercessory prayer as not really a "prayer" so to speak but more of an asking someone to pray for me, just like we'd do here on earth. The more people asking, the better -- I'm thinking of the parable of the persistent widow or of the friend at midnight. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 10, 2020 Author Posted March 10, 2020 1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said: I thought about adding more to my post, but I didn't want to derail an already derailed thread. I look at the practice of intercessory prayer as not really a "prayer" so to speak but more of an asking someone to pray for me, just like we'd do here on earth. The more people asking, the better -- I'm thinking of the parable of the persistent widow or of the friend at midnight. I like that!
ksfisher Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Then it should give you some reassurance to know that Peter Yarrow himself, the author and composer of the song, denied that it has any hidden meaning relating to marijuana smoking. He said it’s about a child’s loss as he grows older of the propensity to fantasize and make believe. Even if it was about marijuana Jackie Paper seem to have the monkey off his back by the end of the song
pogi Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, ksfisher said: You'd said Both the CDC and the Utah Health Dept are tracking infections. Not sure where you are. I see. By “infections”, I am not talking about severe cases only (which are the vast minority of cases). Those are the only ones we are testing currently. You have to have high fever and shortness of breath (rare) or have traveled to a risk country and have any symptoms. It is simply spreading undetected in our communities with that ridiculous criteria for testing.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 10, 2020 Author Posted March 10, 2020 39 minutes ago, ksfisher said: You'd said Both the CDC and the Utah Health Dept are tracking infections. Not sure where you are. Just ran across this. Gives reasons to be optimistic about containing the virus: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/coronavirus-ten-reasons-not-to-panic
ksfisher Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Just ran across this. Gives reasons to be optimistic about containing the virus: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/coronavirus-ten-reasons-not-to-panic The link isn't working.
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