General Conference Commemorating First Vision Bicentennial

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

For what it is worth, I have had discussions away from this forum with Navidad, and know his actual name, and what he says about his accomplishments are true.

We disagree on many points,  but he is a well published historian and author 

Thank you. It was very kind of you to say that. 

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Maybe you would understand if you had ever been a member of a Church where all you had to do was attend their services to be considered a member of that Church.  It was like that for me in a church called the "Church of Christ", and my level of activity didn't make any difference.with regard to whether or not I was a member of that church.  So imagine from his perspective, how he goes to one of our ward buildings, while he knows he is not "technically" a member of it but still that is the church he has chosen to attend with and worship as we/they do, singing hymns and saying prayers and taking the emblems of the sacrament just as he would in any  other church he attended, while "feeling" like a member, at least a little bit, and yet feeling ostracized because he is not accepted as a member of that church.  And when we tell him that he needs to be baptized to become a member of our church his response is that he has already been baptized and does not feel that he needs to be baptized again.  And when we try to explain our reasoning to him he simply does not accept it and does not agree with us.  And yet he still wants to attend our church buildings and feel like he is a member because for some reason he likes us and would rather not go to another church building, or maybe he doesn't have another local option.

Are you starting to understand now, maybe a little bit?  It doesn't make sense from our point of view, at least not totally, but it's what is going on, basically.  People generally complain about what they do not like, and I think what he doesn't like is not feeling like he is a part of us when he attends our Church services, so he complains about that and wants us to be the ones who make the changes he thinks are necessary so that he would feel more like one of us.

Ahab, thank you. You have really nailed it. I have read your post a number of times and appreciate your insight into our situation. The only thing I would add is about this forum. It is often my therapy place. There are times here I reflect on, or yes complain about experiences we have had while on our journey in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I do that because I hope you all will help me work through or understand the experience, situation, or circumstance that has caused us pain. I do so and then experience my therapists scolding, mocking, or berating me for having those feelings. "You have no right to what you are feeling" is the therapeutic response. That isn't what I was hoping for! People who come for counseling are often disoriented, sometimes incoherent, and often looking for something that helps explain the hurt they have experienced. I am a non-member going to a LDS ward and come here expressing discontent or confusion or hurt and your conditioned response kicks in about everyone like me you have have met. I then react because I am already confused, uncomfortable, and occasionally angry, and toxicity settles in. I am so sorry for having been the catalyst of all that. I will do my very best to not bring my confusion, hurt, etc. to this forum anymore. I will do my best to phrase whatever questions I may have in a very non-personal way, without personal or experiential reference. 

I think Ahab said it so well. Thanks. If I could wave a magic wand and change something about the LDS church, I could only thing of one thing and it is very much a result of our own personal experience. I would add an associate member category (or the like - call it what you want) for those who for whatever personal reason want to affiliate with an LDS ward but not join the larger church. The local bishop would have the prerogative to interview the folks and decide whether or not to grant them that "status" based on their spiritual commitment and they would be allowed to tithe to what is in essence their church home. That would increase the opportunity for a sense of belonging and perhaps open the door for some type of formal ministry.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Navidad

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Ahab, thank you. You have really nailed it. I have read your post a number of times and appreciate your insight into our situation. The only thing I would add is about this forum. It is often my therapy place. There are times here I reflect on, or yes complain about experiences we have had while on our journey in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I do that because I hope you all will help me work through or understand the experience, situation, or circumstance that has caused us pain. I do so and then experience my therapists scolding, mocking, or berating me for having those feelings. "You have no right to what you are feeling" is the therapeutic response. That isn't what I was hoping for! People who come for counseling are often disoriented, sometimes incoherent, and often looking for something that helps explain the hurt they have experienced. I am a non-member going to a LDS ward and come here expressing discontent or confusion or hurt and your conditioned response kicks in about everyone like me you have have met. I then react because I am already confused, uncomfortable, and occasionally angry, and toxicity settles in. I am so sorry for having been the catalyst of all that. I will do my very best to not bring my confusion, hurt, etc. to this forum anymore. I will do my best to phrase whatever questions I may have in a very non-personal way, without personal or experiential reference. 

I think Ahab said it so well. Thanks. 

I hope you can also see that what we think you need so that you will feel more comfortable with us is for you to join our Church as a member.  Once you are a member you will then be one of us, whereas now you are not but still like to attend our meetings. And you will then have the gift of the Holy Ghost given to you, in addition to what you may now be experiencing and may have already experienced with the Holy Ghost before.  Until then, just realize that you are not one of us, even if you would like to be or think we are some really neat people. And we can still be friends whether or not you are a member of our Church with us.  Think of us as ambassadors of another kingdom that you are not a citizen of, even though you know quite a bit about our kingdom and some of our customs and some of our customs may even be customs of your kingdom, as well.  Until or unless you become one of us, you will not be a citizen of the same kingdom as us.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Ahab

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

If I could wave a magic wand and change something about the LDS church, I could only thing of one thing and it is very much a result of our own personal experience. I would add an associate member category (or the like - call it what you want) for those who for whatever personal reason want to affiliate with an LDS ward but not join the larger church. The local bishop would have the prerogative to interview the folks and decide whether or not to grant them that "status" based on their spiritual commitment and they would be allowed to tithe to what is in essence their church home. That would increase the opportunity for a sense of belonging and perhaps open the door for some type of formal ministry.

Thank you. Your recommendation has now been noted in my records. At this time I don't see any need to grant a half-way member status and would just say to someone requesting such status:  If you are not one of us, then you simply are not, but you could still choose to be.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Ahab said:

Maybe you would understand if you had ever been a member of a Church where all you had to do was attend their services to be considered a member of that Church.  It was like that for me in a church called the "Church of Christ", and my level of activity didn't make any difference.with regard to whether or not I was a member of that church.  So imagine from his perspective, how he goes to one of our ward buildings, while he knows he is not "technically" a member of it but still that is the church he has chosen to attend with and worship as we/they do, singing hymns and saying prayers and taking the emblems of the sacrament just as he would in any  other church he attended, while "feeling" like a member, at least a little bit, and yet feeling ostracized because he is not accepted as a member of that church.  And when we tell him that he needs to be baptized to become a member of our church his response is that he has already been baptized and does not feel that he needs to be baptized again.  And when we try to explain our reasoning to him he simply does not accept it and does not agree with us.  And yet he still wants to attend our church buildings and feel like he is a member because for some reason he likes us and would rather not go to another church building, or maybe he doesn't have another local option.

Are you starting to understand now, maybe a little bit?  It doesn't make sense from our point of view, at least not totally, but it's what is going on, basically.  People generally complain about what they do not like, and I think what he doesn't like is not feeling like he is a part of us when he attends our Church services, so he complains about that and wants us to be the ones who make the changes he thinks are necessary so that he would feel more like one of us.

No, this doesn’t help me understand. If one were a stranger to the Church, maybe this would apply, but not if one is a long-time student of the Church who purposely attaches oneself to the group and who as an expert regularly writes and lectures about it. 

[Ahab]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, this doesn’t help me understand. If one were a stranger to the Church, maybe this would apply, but not if one is a long-time student of the Church who purposely attaches oneself to the group and who as an expert regularly writes and lectures about it. 

I think I can understand your point of view even though I haven't been a life-time member of the Church. But we are talking about a different perspective than that.

The "invisible" Church perspective, vs the "only true and living Church" perspective.

The "we are all Christians who believe we are Christian" perspective, vs the "only those who are members of the true and living Church of Jesus Christ are the true Christians and everyone else isn't a true Christian" perspective.

The "it doesn't matter if we are baptized or not, we are still members" perspective, vs the "only those who are baptized into the true and living Church of Jesus Christ are members" perspective.

Maybe it takes one to know one, and since I have been on both sides, I can see and have seen from both perspectives.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Ahab

[Robert F. Smith]

20 hours ago, pogi said:

That is just not fair Robert!  Everything I have said is supported by every major health/medical organization in America, Europe, and across the globe.   I am not the source.  Quit making it about me!

Where is your source?  I asked you to show me one major health organization anywhere in the world that supports your view that the CDC and WHO are playing Russian roulette by saying babies are not at high risk - that saying so is premature.  Still waiting...

O.K. pogi.  You're completely right, and I'm completely wrong.

[Robert F. Smith]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

I think you are way overblowing what Pogi has said.   Maybe both of you should just drop it for now and Scott can do a countdown clock of  3 or 6 months? to revisit to see who is most accurate on the statistics.  Reporting posts seems to get threads locked down recently rather than just posters banned, so unless you want the thread locked, seems a good reason to step away since both are making personal comments.

Yeh, I just cried "Uncle !"

[Robert F. Smith]

On 3/12/2020 at 1:14 AM, Raingirl said:

That poster continues to baffle me. He complains, criticizes, and judges the church and its members unceasingly. 

He enjoys telling us over and over how superior he and his wife are.  He unendingly criticizes our beliefs and enjoys telling we’re wrong - frequently and specifically. He has no interest in being baptized and becoming a member, but wants to be looked on as such.

Why would anyone attend a church whose teachings and members they hold in such contempt?

All that may be a defense mechanism.  Phil can't allow himself to be too deeply touched by the Gospel.  Otherwise the worst might happen:  He might find himself in the waters of baptism. 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 3/12/2020 at 8:42 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, and all in the name of curiosity, empathy, and gaining greater understanding. Is a puzzlement. 

I spent many years attending non-Mormon services (including synagogue), much of it in awe of the deep religiosity of those believers.  I took an anthropological approach in which one learns to appreciate another culture.  I have always felt enriched by those experiences.  I never felt it was my place to find fault with their modes of worship or the content of their belief -- even If I had some very different views.

Phil apparently feels challenged by LDS beliefs and practices.  It calls into serious question his own set of beliefs.

There is a strong notion among many anthropologists that one cannot truly understand an alien culture unless he dives deeply into it, i.e., becomes a full participant.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 3/12/2020 at 12:05 PM, Navidad said:

................................................
I have no interest in being baptized and becoming a member? That is true right now. Should I leave the forum because of that? I have a great interest in learning, not in joining. ........................... If you live in SLC area, come to the meeting on Aug 5 (I think it is) where we could meet face to face so we can get to know each other better. I am not sure if I am allowed to post the details on here of a future meeting or not. I would love to meet some of you. I will be speaking about the joys and discomforts of being a faithful non-member in a LDS ward................................ I got an email yesterday indicating that MHA may be cancelled.............................

There are plenty of people on this forum who are not faithful Mormons, and I certainly enjoy their presence.  This discussion board is just that, a discussion board, not a venue for proselytes.

You should feel free to announce upcoming meetings, Sunstone, MHA, etc., though all of that is now in question.  You have been an active participant in the past, Phil, and you should continue to do so.  Causing a little discomfort may be good for those hearing from you.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 3/12/2020 at 12:21 PM, Navidad said:

..................................................

Yes, I do know the difference between fringe and mainstream. I will speaking at MHA this year (If it is held) on the history of that very subject. I often go down to the LeBaron colonies to interview and visit folks. Oops, sorry, there I go again! I regret that when I try and help you folks understand us better, by telling you about our activities, it comes across as thinking we are superior. I regret that.

You need to get over the notion that somebody might think that you consider yourself superior.  So what if they do?  What is improper and condescending is to constantly insert it into the conversation.  It has no place is an intelligent conversation.  In and of itself, it comes across as superior and condescending.  Just say what you have to say and let the chips fall where they may.

On 3/12/2020 at 12:21 PM, Navidad said:

Speaking of the Holy Ghost; I read an article this morning that said that LDS Christians believe the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are two different entities. I have not heard that before. .................

You really need to take to heart the notion that ordinary Christians (Mormons, Mennonite, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, etc.) know almost nothing of theology or the Bible.  Of course, they read Scripture, but that is not the same as actually understanding the technical details.

I too encounter Mormons who think that the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are different entities.  Mostly I just smile and let it go.

Next thing you know they will be suggesting that the Paraclete is the Divine Mother. 😎

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You need to get over the notion that somebody might think that you consider yourself superior.  So what if they do?  What is improper and condescending is to constantly insert it into the conversation.  It has no place is an intelligent conversation.  In and of itself, it comes across as superior and condescending.  Just say what you have to say and let the chips fall where they may.

You really need to take to heart the notion that ordinary Christians (Mormons, Mennonite, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, etc.) know almost nothing of theology or the Bible.  Of course, they read Scripture, but that is not the same as actually understanding the technical details.

I too encounter Mormons who think that the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are different entities.  Mostly I just smile and let it go.

Next thing you know they will be suggesting that the Paraclete is the Divine Mother. 😎

Holy Spirit:  "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

"Gift" of the Holy Ghost: and Holy Ghost...two different things:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-21-the-gift-of-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Tacenda

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I spent many years attending non-Mormon services (including synagogue), much of it in awe of the deep religiosity of those believers.  I took an anthropological approach in which one learns to appreciate another culture.  I have always felt enriched by those experiences.  I never felt it was my place to find fault with their modes of worship or the content of their belief -- even If I had some very different views.

Phil apparently feels challenged by LDS beliefs and practices.  It calls into serious question his own set of beliefs.

There is a strong notion among many anthropologists that one cannot truly understand an alien culture unless he dives deeply into it, i.e., becomes a full participant.

Thanks. I would not presume to criticize the Mennonite congregation for which I served as organist a few times on my mission in Heredia, Costa Rica. Would that count a little bit?
 

Whole lotta cultures out there. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think I can understand your point of view even though I haven't been a life-time member of the Church. But we are talking about a different perspective than that.

The "invisible" Church perspective, vs the "only true and living Church" perspective.

The "we are all Christians who believe we are Christian" perspective, vs the "only those who are members of the true and living Church of Jesus Christ are the true Christians and everyone else isn't a true Christian" perspective.

The "it doesn't matter if we are baptized or not, we are still members" perspective, vs the "only those who are baptized into the true and living Church of Jesus Christ are members" perspective.

Maybe it takes one to know one, and since I have been on both sides, I can see and have seen from both perspectives.

Well, there’s that little matter of covenants. 

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks. I would not presume to criticize the Mennonite congregation for which I served as organist a few times on my mission in Heredia, Costa Rica. Would that count a little bit?
 

..............

How very ecumenical of you, Bernard !  Or was that your Mission Prexy's idea?

Edited March 14, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Holy Spirit:  "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

"Gift" of the Holy Ghost: and Holy Ghost...two different things:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-21-the-gift-of-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng

Thanks, Tacenda.  See, Phil, Tacenda proves my point.  😎

[Navidad]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I spent many years attending non-Mormon services (including synagogue), much of it in awe of the deep religiosity of those believers.  I took an anthropological approach in which one learns to appreciate another culture.  I have always felt enriched by those experiences.  I never felt it was my place to find fault with their modes of worship or the content of their belief -- even If I had some very different views.

Phil apparently feels challenged by LDS beliefs and practices.  It calls into serious question his own set of beliefs.

There is a strong notion among many anthropologists that one cannot truly understand an alien culture unless he dives deeply into it, i.e., becomes a full participant.

You are absolutely right. Whenever I see, experience, learn something new I am challenged by it. Together with that challenge often comes a sense of discomfort until I figure it out. Being in a LDS ward for some years now has caused me to reconsider many things. Part of that reconsidering is questioning to further understand. It is not criticizing. It is absorbing; taking somethings in and rejecting others. I would expect if someone attended a Mennonite church for a few years they might be confronted with a whole new emphasis on foot washing, conflict resolution, social justice, defining worldliness, a different kind of word of wisdom, all from a scriptural framework that might be new or at least different, being a restorational group of another kind, and on and on. I am sure that person would reject some things and embrace others that might make their former faith stronger and more complete. Would they be uncomfortable along the way? Of course. I did my mission in the jungle of Africa in a mud hut with no running water, electricity, etc. I was uncomfortable there in some ways too. 

It also works the other way! I hesitate to say this, but will anyway. We have often been told by folks in our ward how much we add to their discussions and experience. I know some of you will recoil at that possibility, but it is the truth. Whenever we experience a new culture, we can grow, learn and stretch. In learning more about other beliefs, cultures, etc. we learn more about ourselves. We are diving as deeply as we can into the LDS culture. We cannot join without being required to adopt beliefs that we cannot right now - the biggest (in a hurdle sense) for me to is to adopt a belief that the LDS church is the only true and living church on earth. I do not believe that and am not sure I will ever believe that. BTW, I listened to a podcast from the 2019 Sunstone conference by a SLC physician and three-time bishop on an alternative interpretation of D&C 1:30. I thought he did a great job of remaining faithful while challenging the orthodox interpretation; based on the mood (subjunctive) of the grammar of the verse.  He also provided a new interpretation (for me) of D&C 10:67 redefining the word "church" as the people of God, not any particular institution. That is an interpretation I could really dig into! We are trying to become as fully participative as we are allowed, and then maybe even a bit more! 

[Navidad]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, there’s that little matter of covenants. 

Covenants between God and humans and between humans are not in any way unique to the LDS church. 

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Covenants between God and humans and between humans are not in any way unique to the LDS church. 

Thank you. Of course that is true. Perhaps I was unclear. I was referring specifically to the covenants people formally make in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints when they are baptized, take the sacrament, and receive the ordinances of the temple. 
 

May we smoke the peace pipe?

Edited March 14, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How very ecumenical of you, Bernard !  Or was that your Mission Prexy's idea?

I may have told this story before.

After a day of tracting and teaching, we would often stop in a restaurant near the chapel (our residence) for a cold soda or maybe something to eat. One evening a waiter asked us if we were ministers. We explained who we were. He invited us to his home in a place at some distance from Heredia. On meeting there, we learned he was part of a Mennonite congregation or colony that was established in the area. We hadn’t previously met other Mennonites and were unaware of their community.

We had several discussions with him and became good friends. When he learned that I played the piano, he commented that their congregation had a small organ, but no one to play it. I offered to play and did so, but I can’t remember how many times... probably not more than two.

It was in his home that I had one of the most powerful manifestations of the Spirit of my mission. During one discussion he asked what were our beliefs about Jesus. After a short conversation we read D&C 76...

Quote

22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

At that moment, the Holy Spirit entered the room like a cool gentle breeze and bore testimony to us that this event really happened. The three of us tearfully acknowledged that we knew this was true. This is one of the foundation stones of my testimony.

Our friend did not join the Church at that time as he wished to remain with his friends and congregation. I eventually lost touch with him.

 

[Navidad]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you. Of course that is true. Perhaps I was unclear. I was referring specifically to the covenants people formally make in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints when they are baptized, take the sacrament, and receive the ordinances of the temple. 
 

May we smoke the peace pipe?

Por supuesto que podemos. ¡Estoy deseando que llegue! Of course we can. I look forward to that! 

[Navidad]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I may have told this story before.

After a day of tracting and teaching, we would often stop in a restaurant near the chapel (our residence) for a cold soda or maybe something to eat. One evening a waiter asked us if we were ministers. We explained who we were. He invited us to his home in a place at some distance from Heredia. On meeting there, we learned he was part of a Mennonite congregation or colony that was established in the area. We hadn’t previously met other Mennonites and were unaware of their community.

We had several discussions with him and became good friends. When he learned that I played the piano, he commented that their congregation had a small organ, but no one to play it. I offered to play and did so, but I can’t remember how many times... probably not more than two.

It was in his home that I had one of the most powerful manifestations of the Spirit of my mission. During one discussion he asked what were our beliefs about Jesus. After a short conversation we read D&C 76...

At that moment, the Holy Spirit entered the room like a cool gentle breeze and bore testimony to us that this event really happened. The three of us tearfully acknowledged that we knew this was true. This is one of the foundation stones of my testimony.

Our friend did not join the Church at that time as he wished to remain with his friends and congregation. I eventually lost touch with him.

 

I remember you telling that story a couple of years ago. I love it. Thanks for sharing it again. 

[Bernard Gui]

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Por supuesto que podemos. ¡Estoy deseando que llegue! Of course we can. I look forward to that! 

Muchas gracias hermano. Así es que nos podemos quedar amigos.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Navidad]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Muchas gracias hermano. Así es que nos podemos quedar amigos.

¡Y hermanos en Cristo!