Scott Lloyd Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Nacho2dope said: it’s around the 6 and a half minute mark. He said the people running around campus who have a problem with this don’t have a testimony of the apostles. It’s not exactly what I had said but I feel the same point was being made Thanks, Nacho2dope. 1
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: but heterosexual romantic behavior can. And all who are faithful will at some point have that opportunity and capability, regardless of their present station... I think this may be an assumption about what eternities may be like. We may dispense with "heterosexual romantic behaviour" in the sense of someone being attracted to the opposite sex as opposed to someone who is a member of the opposite sex. I will try and think of how to say that better, but at the moment it is we will as exalted being only be attracted romantically to who we are married to. Lusting after anyone else is impossible because those kinds of attraction won't exist among exalted beings. We won't be physically attracted to members of the opposite sex or the same sex, just attracted to our spouses. An example...we are single spirits or resurrected beings (not sure if sealing has to take place before resurrection, but think it likely) and looking for a spouse. We notice a great work of creation that astounds us and we want to get to know that person who did it better. We become great friends and find we work together as a team wonderfully and balance the lacks so we complement each other to practical perfection. The last occurs in part because one of us is male and the other is female, but that is not our focus. Instead we are overwhelmed by the wonderful feelings we get as we work together towards a shared goal. We believe we belong together and begin to see each other as potential partners in physical ways as well as all the ways we have been partners up to them and God confirms that on us through a sealing and the Holy Spirit of Promise and we become even more perfected as partners through acting as husband and wife. I don't see heterosexual attraction being a necessay part of the marriage process here even though one is male and the other female. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 1
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You are taking what he said out of context. Same-sex romantic behavior cannot lead to eternal marriage — but heterosexual romantic behavior can. And all who are faithful will at some point have that opportunity and capability, regardless of their present station in life. No, that's not what he said or implied as your second sentence. He said no gay behaviour because it doesn't lead to eternal marriage and I said on and on and on about gay people. If they will be fixed in the next life then yes, gay behaviour can lead to eternal marriage, contrary to what Elder Johnson said. If it will all come out in the wash anyways, then why this ban on behaviour now? Edited March 5, 2020 by Duncan 2
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Duncan said: No, that's not what he said or implied as your second sentence. He said no gay behaviour because it doesn't lead to eternal marriage and I said on and on and on about gay people. If they will be fixed in the next life then yes, gay behaviour can lead to eternal marriage, contrary to what Elder Johnson said. If it will all come out in the wash anyways, then why this ban on behaviour now? If someone commits adultery in this life, repents, and has an eternal marriage in this life, do you see the adultery as leading to eternal marriage because it was part of their behaviour in mortality? (not suggesting gay marriage is on par with adultery, trying to tease out what Duncan means so going to an extreme first) Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, Calm said: If someone commits adultery in this life, repents, and has an eternal marriage in this life, do you see the adultery as leading to eternal marriage because it was part of their behaviour in mortality? (not suggesting gay marriage is on par with adultery, trying to tease out what Duncan means so going to an extreme first) no, I know, no I don't see adultery as leading to eternal marriage as they can choose not to repent, but I wouldn't even know how to repent for your sexuality, you spend your whole life with it and then all of a sudden it's changed-Don't we believe that the same spirit that possesses your body when you die go with you into the next and the dead can repent for sure but only those who didn't get that chance here-FYI I don't know what to think, one leader says one thing, someone says something else, the scriptures say something differently. The only consistent, to me, message for homosexuals is if you practice it you're out of the church
Scott Lloyd Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Calm said: Has someone posted this? Thankfully the person who was punching appears to have been pulled off the other one by other students. Hopefully security is nearby and arrested him. https://mobile.twitter.com/KeatonBrumley/status/1235330373233635329?s=20 The protest is not surprising unfortunately. It’s frustrating but I’ve watched it several times now (it’s only 12 seconds long) and I can’t see the violence. All I see is a noisy crowd of people yelling “gay rights”. Edited March 5, 2020 by Scott Lloyd
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: I don't see heterosexual attraction being a necessay part of the marriage process here even though one is male and the other female. This is exactly right. Heterosexuality is as artificial as -- and shares the exact same history with -- homosexuality. They are both late 19th-century constructs that simply do not describe most human experience across either time (history) or space (culture). If you had asked my father if he were 'attracted to women', he would have laughed out loud. He loved my mum with all his heart, but he had zero romantic interest in women as a class. He didn't objectify females or lust after their bodies. I sometimes wonder if 21st-century Westerners are even capable of comprehending this anymore, but the people who live in societies where clothing is minimal or non-existent (or housing is communal and therefore provides little or no privacy) are simply not walking around in a perpetual state of sexual arousal or even distraction. In a Church leader context, every single serious transgression of the Law of Chastity that I have personally been involved with has been caused by heterosexuality. I strongly suspect that many Church members are going to be surprised in the next life to discover what an incredible (and unnecessary) burden all sexual identities are. Edited March 5, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan 4
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 16 minutes ago, Duncan said: I wouldn't even know how to repent for your sexuality, you spend your whole life with it and then all of a sudden it's changed-Don't we believe that the same spirit that possesses your body when you die go with you into the next ... Do you sincerely think that you're going to be spending eternity in the Celestial Kingdom checking out other men's eternal companions? Do you see any evidence in the scriptures that Jesus had a nameable sexual identity? 1
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Duncan said: Don't we believe that the same spirit that possesses your body when you die go with you into the next and the dead can repent for sure but only those who didn't get that chance here- wouldn’t you see those who did not experience sexual fluidity in this life as not getting that chance? It just isn’t exposure to an idea, a chance had to include being able to understand and accept and implement change. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 3 hours ago, Duncan said: it seems that Pres. Ballard's talk from just yestarday has been undone or something That thought just occurred to me. Ot a horde of people didn’t listen to it. Or they quickly forgot it. Interesting, though, that President Ballard would be divinely inspired to give it and that there would so soon be such an obvious occasion to apply it. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Something “coming over (or across) the transom” is an expression applied to the unexpected arrival of something such as news or a document. It is derived from the bygone practice of submitting an unsolicited manuscript to a publisher by tossing it over the transom above the doorway to the publisher’s office, the transom being the cross piece below the window above the doorway. Much of my news gets to me unbidden these days in the form of alerts that appear on my iPhone. Maybe I used the expression too loosely in my haste to get my message posted. No, you used that antique expression properly, but I can't recall seeing a transom now for decades. And I doubt that the younger generation has any idea what it is.
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Do you sincerely think that you're going to be spending eternity in the Celestial Kingdom checking out other men's eternal companions? Do you see any evidence in the scriptures that Jesus had a nameable sexual identity? no offense but I hope to heaven above I don't spend eternity checking out men! I don't know, but when Judas kissed him on the cheek he didn't say anything, so who knows! 1
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: That thought just occurred to me. Ot a horde of people didn’t listen to it. Or they quickly forgot it. Interesting, though, that President Ballard would be divinely inspired to give it and that there would so soon be such an obvious occasion to apply it. now that I can get behind😀
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It’s frustrating but I’ve watched it several times now (it’s only 12 seconds long) and I can’t see the violence. All I see is a noisy crowd of people yelling “gay rights”. It is right at the beginning. Look towards the beginning of the cover of the walkway into the Wilkinson Center. There is a big guy in black or dark clothes. A smaller guy to his left , our right hits him in his arm. Two guys iirc come up and pull the smaller guy back. We only see one punch I believe, it appears that the person may have started filming because they saw other punches or they are exaggerating when saying he took punches.
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) I am using my phone now which gives a much better view and it looks like it is a young woman who hits him (longer hair and the way she holds herself, explains the punch looks half push half sock in the arm). I think she has a blue shirt. I would also be shocked if it was multiple punches. I can hear the punch though or it was really good timing, I am surprised at hearing it given the distance. Probably had a lot of slap to it (just experimented on my arm). He is tons bigger than she is and she wasn’t standing properly to put much force behind it. Explains why he doesn’t really move. one more view, she punches him and he doesn’t look like he moves at all, then she reached out with both hands and grabs his shirt it looks like at the shoulder in front on the arm and then behind and then pulls and pushes or something. He staggers some then. and then she gets pulled away from him. not much violence. Still shouldn’t have happened and the woman should be disciplined imo. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
Robert F. Smith Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Nacho2dope said: ........................................ Interesting that they are unable to spell the name "Marriott" properly. Bearing in mind, of course, that the Marriott hotel chain thrived on porn available in each room on the television. An industry standard. https://www.smartmeetings.com/news/hotels-resorts/79362/hotel-chains-to-pull-plug-pornography
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Duncan said: no offense but I hope to heaven above I don't spend eternity checking out men! Well, then I have good news for you ... Quote I don't know, but when Judas kissed him on the cheek he didn't say anything, so who knows! Think about it, mate. Do you seriously think Jesus spent his 33 years on earth going, 'Oh, I'd better stop looking at her' or 'I hope Judas doesn't know how hot I think he is' or 'Check out that nursing mother's assets!'??? Or that He's having to do the same multiplied by millions now that He has taken His seat on the right hand of the All-Seeing Father? Edited March 5, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan 1
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I sometimes wonder if 21st-century Westerners are even capable of comprehending this anymore, but the men who live in societies where clothing is minimal or non-existent (or housing is communal and therefore provides little or no privacy) are simply not walking around in a perpetual state of sexual arousal or even distraction. It is a very unfortunate social development imo. Got to wonder what life would be like without that paradigm. It is not like prostitution, porn, etc didn’t exist. And looking at some Asian literature, it highly romanticizes youth. You have older men being patrons of young, innocent boys. There appears to be little physical sexual relationship in the mainstream stuff I have seen, but the feel is intended to be erotic from what I have studied (didn’t want to make assumptions). Same thing happens with girls though seems like more often they are much closer in age. Less patron and more friendship. And one can’t blame it on Christianity or uptight morality resulting from that faith as that was around long, long before the paradigm was. Maybe it all started going downhill as soon as we started wearing clothes. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 1
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: That thought just occurred to me. Ot a horde of people didn’t listen to it. Or they quickly forgot it. Interesting, though, that President Ballard would be divinely inspired to give it and that there would so soon be such an obvious occasion to apply it. Wait...he refers to the events that happened, did he not? And he had a week or more to prepare it. Not saying he wasn’t inspired to give it (the DN report implies he is troubled by the political partisanship conflicts happening, so I can see that as the original concern) but it was a predictable situation that as soon as the letter was released there would be blow back. I am not psychic and I told friends there would be a protest as soon as it appeared to be walked back (don’t think it was walked back, just clarified, but that would be the feeling created by the insistence that standards had changed). Or are you suggesting he wasn’t aware that the letter was coming nor that it would be released right after his talk ? If the latter, I think more likely BYU asked him to help them defuse the situation and he knew the letter was going to be released. It seems likely to me that was part of the delay. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
sunstoned Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 7 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Who knows where the misinformation came from? It's quite possible that HCO people were being exactly compliant with instructions given to them. Another possibility is that perhaps all the "brethren" are not in complete lock step on this. Having conflicting information released from an organization can be a symptom of political infighting. 1
Sunslight Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, sunstoned said: Another possibility is that perhaps all the "brethren" are not in complete lock step on this. Having conflicting information released from an organization can be a symptom of political infighting. That would be ridiculous.
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, sunstoned said: Another possibility is that perhaps all the "brethren" are not in complete lock step on this. Having conflicting information released from an organization can be a symptom of political infighting. If we are going to speculate, it makes more sense to me the HCO are not in complete lock step on this. I am not condemning the activism of BYU profs and students, some of whom have expressed a desire to significantly change things and intentionally staying at BYU to help it happen, just pointing out we know it exists where there is no evidence that there is “infighting” among the brethren. Activists might even accept jobs at the HCO with that intent. There is one administrator at the HCO who has expressed a desire to help educate others, though I don’t think assuming he was the one pushing this is correct. It is as likely imo that his friends he works with saw it as important because they became more opened to the idea as they became acquainted with him as often happens (as shown in studies) and that is why they interpreted it as an active movement towards accepting same sex activity. https://universe.byu.edu/2020/01/16/lgbtq-and-ally-perspectives-shared-during-campus-panel-on-faith-and-sexuality/ Quote Panelists included CAPS director Steve Smith, athletics administrator Liz Darger and Ben Schilaty, an Honor Code administrator and member of the LGBT community.... Schilaty started the conversation by describing his unsuccessful experiences with dating as a gay undergraduate student at BYU. After relationships with both a female and male peers came to an end, he said he learned some difficult lessons. “I’ve had to navigate wanting myself to change and wanting the Church to change so that I could be happy,” Schilaty said. “What I’ve learned is how to not wish that things could change, but how to live my best life with the circumstances that I’ve been given.” He said he does this by maintaining close relationships with friends and family and by always trying to be in places where God can speak to him to direct his next steps. Throughout the night, Schilaty shared numerous experiences of navigating the complex life of an openly gay man who is also an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Sometimes I feel like I’m too gay for the Latter-day Saint community and too Latter-day Saint for the gay community,” he said. “But there have been some wonderful people who have made sure that I know I belong with them.” Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
sunstoned Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, Sunslight said: That would be ridiculous. No, it wouldn't at all. And there is precedence. http://www.signaturebooks.com/product/conflict-in-the-quorum/
Sunslight Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 31 minutes ago, sunstoned said: No, it wouldn't at all. And there is precedence. http://www.signaturebooks.com/product/conflict-in-the-quorum/ There is no evidence whatsoever that the Brethren are not all on the sane page here, not one tiny little shred of it. That's why it's ridiculous. 1
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sunslight said: There is no evidence whatsoever that the Brethren are not all on the sane page here, not one tiny little shred of it. That's why it's ridiculous. as i said before before Elder Johnson said that gay people can't get sealed in the Temple and therefore be exalted, Elder Stevenson seems to think that everyone can be exalted, to me they need to get together and figure something out
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