Calm Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) Has someone posted this? Thankfully the person who was punching appears to have been pulled off the other one by other students. Hopefully security is nearby and arrested him. https://mobile.twitter.com/KeatonBrumley/status/1235330373233635329?s=20 The protest is not surprising unfortunately. Edited March 4, 2020 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted March 4, 2020 Author Posted March 4, 2020 16 minutes ago, pogi said: I haven't read the whole thread, maybe this has been addressed, but if nothing has changed in the honor code, what was the purpose of the change? If nothing has changed other than the wording, it seems the original wording was more clear - why did they change it? It’s a question I’ve been struggling with.
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, Calm said: Has someone posted this? Thankfully the person who was punching appears to have been pulled off the other one by other students. Hopefully security is nearby and arrested him. https://mobile.twitter.com/KeatonBrumley/status/1235330373233635329?s=20 The protest is not surprising unfortunately. it seems that Pres. Ballard's talk from just yestarday has been undone or something
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Duncan said: it seems that Pres. Ballard's talk from just yestarday has been undone or something Not every student attends devotional or whatever it was and it is possible the person hitting out or even reading the Family Proc was not a student. Thankfully those who appear to be participants and not just observers are a small, small fraction of student population (I had a larger group in my branch every Sunday I believe...not great with estimating group size). Hopefully the vast majority of students are responding in line with what Pres. Ballard said. I do think if the person reading the FP has a right to be there, so do the protestors for gay rights....though I see significant limits on "rights" at private schools. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 1
CV75 Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 40 minutes ago, pogi said: I haven't read the whole thread, maybe this has been addressed, but if nothing has changed in the honor code, what was the purpose of the change? If nothing has changed other than the wording, it seems the original wording was more clear - why did they change it? I think it was to highlight the rationale for the standard, which is principles-based, not labels (or identity)-based. The rule isn't there because the student is gay, it's because the romantic behavior isn't compatible with eternal marriage. Those who couldn't see that before can better see it now, and discourages creating and singling out a "class" of people in a shaming and not inspiring way. Same principle, focusing on the principle and not the actors, using modern semantics in an age where they more and more quickly change. 3
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 i think it was in the 1970's that then Elder Packer traveled to Tonga and there wasn't a Temple anywhere nearby and he said "where are we as a Church if I can't teach about the Temple to these Tongan saints?" I wonder similarly where we are as a Church if we can't get homosexual members to plan a Temple marriage, why can't we get a revelation as to what are we supposed to do with them, minus the Temple?-why even endow them then, or go further down the line baptize and confirm them?, they can't ever get married in the Temple and you need that for exaltation. The Church's logic seems to be that they can't get married in the Temple so no marriage=no exaltation-Can Gay members be exalted? 1
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Duncan said: i think it was in the 1970's that then Elder Packer traveled to Tonga and there wasn't a Temple anywhere nearby and he said "where are we as a Church if I can't teach about the Temple to these Tongan saints?" I wonder similarly where we are as a Church if we can't get homosexual members to plan a Temple marriage, why can't we get a revelation as to what are we supposed to do with them, minus the Temple?-why even endow them then, or go further down the line baptize and confirm them?, they can't ever get married in the Temple and you need that for exaltation. The Church's logic seems to be that they can't get married in the Temple so no marriage=no exaltation-Can Gay members be exalted? Who can really say what will happen to a particular individual in the eternities? Quote How can I help members who identify as gay or experience same-sex attraction feel loved, welcomed, and inspired at church? Allow for growth and responsibility Watch Carol F. McConkie's (First Counselor in the General Young Women Presidency) video, “Lifting Others.” “It is so important that we understand, first of all, that everyone is in a different place along the path, and that we develop an awareness of the people that are around us. “I know people who come to church every Sunday so that they can be inspired and uplifted and who just simply walk away feeling judged and unloved; unneeded. Like there is no place for them at church. We need to do this differently. We need to be deeply aware of what the purpose of coming to church on Sunday is and make sure that everyone who comes feels loved, needed, accepted, and lifted. Everybody has struggles we don’t even know about. And it’s so important that we be aware that everyone around us is loved of God. And that we need to see them through Christlike eyes. And we cannot allow judgment to dictate the way we interact with people. It’s just simply not right. I feel that the Lord places us where we are and connects us with the people around us for a purpose. “Because it’s not only about our own progression, but about helping others progress. And I have come to recognize that we are placed where we are so that we can love and lift others. “We just cannot be, or even call ourselves a disciple of Christ, if we are not helping others along that path. The gospel of Jesus Christ does not marginalize people. People marginalize people. And we have to fix that. We need to be sensitive and love them and allow them the opportunity to grow and to blossom and to be their best selves. They have talents and abilities and personality that is needed in the kingdom of God. And if we are going to build the kingdom of God on the earth, we need everyone to come, to come and do their part. And we need to recognize that when anyone’s shadow darkens the door of the chapel, they ought to feel immediately embraced, and loved, and lifted, and inspired when they walk out that door, to go and be better. Because they know the Lord loves them. And because they have friends in their faith.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/leaders?lang=eng Quote Church participation Watch Elder D. Todd Christofferson's video, “Purpose of This Website.” “Someone who is adhering to the norm of chastity, someone who is following the covenants, and the standards, teachings of the gospel of Christ, though they may be dealing with same-sex attraction, really there is no reason they cannot be fully participative, that they can’t be a full-fledged member of the Church, and hold callings, and speak, and enter the temple, and serve there, and all the other opportunities and blessings that can come from Church membership will be available to them. “There are examples of this among Church members. There are multiple examples. And though no one would say it is always easy, all of us are endeavoring to maintain those norms and keep our covenants. And we’re all in the same boat, in the same company in that regard. So, I say there are many, relatively speaking, who are finding that success in their lives, and that happiness.” —Elder D. Todd Christofferson Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 Quote Elder Gary E. Stevenson: “All of us look at our lives sometimes and try to evaluate where are we; where am I in my life? I’ve always said that when you begin to compare yourself one with another, it either leads to discouragement or it leads to pride. Neither of those are good, but that’s often what happens when people began comparing. They start to think, ‘My lot in life is better, or my lot in life is much worse.’ And so it’s not a constructive exercise for us to try to compare our circumstance to another. Blessings come in the near term; blessings come in the long term. Sometimes blessings are in store for us, I believe, after we pass through the veil, in our post-mortal existence. And so we’re in a very finite space right now, and in this finite space, it’s just not beneficial to try to compare adversity that we’ve had or to try to compare the blessings that we have. “We remember when Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden, one of the things that was introduced when they left was thorns and thistles, and we all have them in our lives. But, we can have confidence that all of those can be overcome, whatever those might be that are placed in front of us. The Lord tells us that there’s going to be adversity along the way, and he even suggests to us that our afflictions will be consecrated for our gain. Now sometimes we have to wait some years for this, but, ultimately, we can be assured that the promise of eternal life is for everyone. Everyone will be rewarded for their faithfulness equally. If you endure to the end, you’ll be blessed. It might be hard today and tomorrow and next month, but it will not always be hard. You can do this. “As you exercise your faith in Jesus Christ in His Atonement, there will be sometimes adversity and trials that will come to us that seem like they’re almost too hard to bear. But then he says, “Nevertheless, be of good cheer for I will lead you along.’ That’s a promise from the Lord. Be of good cheer in the midst of your adversity; be of good cheer for I will lead you along. And I bear testimony that Jesus Christ will lead you along in any adversity that you have.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/individuals?lang=eng
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, Calm said: Who can really say what will happen to a particular individual in the eternities? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/leaders?lang=eng Elder Paul Johnson said that same sex behaviour can't lead to eternal marriage and so without that then you're done for, no marriage no exaltation, it just seems that besides that leaders' words are just whistling in the wind to no end
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 14 minutes ago, Calm said: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/individuals?lang=eng sounds like Elder Gary Stevenson needs to talk to Elder Paul Johnson!
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Duncan said: Elder Paul Johnson said that same sex behaviour can't lead to eternal marriage and so without that then you're done for, no marriage no exaltation, it just seems that besides that leaders' words are just whistling in the wind to no end There is more to life for someone with same sex attraction than just "same sex behaviour". If they abstain from that and fill their lives with sincere service of God and their fellow man, why would they not be as much on the pathway to salvation as anyone else who dies before being sealed? Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 2
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Duncan said: sounds like Elder Gary Stevenson needs to talk to Elder Paul Johnson! I think you are misunderstanding what Elder Johnson means.
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Calm said: There is more to life for someone with same sex attraction than just "same sex behaviour". If they abstain from that and fill their lives with sincere service of God and their fellow man, why would they not be as much on the pathway to salvation as anyone else who dies before being sealed? Sounds like BYU needs to hear this! There are no scriptures that sustain the idea that single people will be married in the next life, I think that came from Pres. Snow about his childless sister Eliza, but here's hoping that idea is correct and that homosexuals will be fixed somehow in the next life, but I don't know any scriptures that sustain that idea either.
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Calm said: I think you are misunderstanding what Elder Johnson means. He said that romantic behaviour that doesn't lead to eternal marriage is wrong and therefore should be avoided, so no Temple marriage=no exaltation
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Duncan said: He said that romantic behaviour that doesn't lead to eternal marriage is wrong and therefore should be avoided, so no Temple marriage=no exaltation How many people have and will die without a temple marriage? Do we assume they have no opportunity for exaltation?
stemelbow Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 It makes little sense that they made the change unless of course they had a PR reason, thinking any issues that arose could be handled quietly, not thinking people would make a big deal of the change. If so they really don't understand the issues involved. I see no other reason they made the change while hoping nothing would actually change. They wanted to appear more accepting but hoped it would never really amount to any actual acceptance. Weird and I'll considered move on their part.
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 Just now, Calm said: How many people have and will die without a temple marriage? Do we assume they have no opportunity for exaltation? millions and millions and millions but gay people though and singles
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Duncan said: There are no scriptures that sustain the idea that single people will be married in the next life, Are there not scriptures that say God's blessings are open to all? He is no respector of persons? Male or female? Bond or free? (Should I make the joke that is equivalent to "married or single"?) If being married is a requirement of exaltation (as it appears it is to me from section 131), then if exaltation is available to all, it is logical that the opportunity for marriage must also be. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/131?lang=eng Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 1
smac97 Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: Has someone posted this? Thankfully the person who was punching appears to have been pulled off the other one by other students. Hopefully security is nearby and arrested him. https://mobile.twitter.com/KeatonBrumley/status/1235330373233635329?s=20 The protest is not surprising unfortunately. I hope whoever it was that acted with violence is caught and punished. There is no justification for that. I am becoming tired of watching instances of selective violence being ignored on college campuses. 1
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Duncan said: millions and millions and millions but gay people though and singles Think of all those who never reached adulthood. How could God claim all are alike unto him if he withheld blessings based on the age at death or availability of marriage possibilities, things people have no agency over in many cases. If he won't withhold it based on ethnicity or social status or sex, why would marriage status be different? Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 2
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 14 minutes ago, Calm said: Are there not scriptures that say God's blessings are open to all? He is no respector of persons? Male or female? Bond or free? (Should I make the joke that is equivalent to "married or single"?) If being married is a requirement of exaltation (as it appears it is to me from section 131), then if exaltation is available to all, it is logical that the opportunity for marriage must also be. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/131?lang=eng Elder Johnson said that homosexuals can't get sealed in the Temple so I suppose those scriptures don't apply to them somehow
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Calm said: Think of all those who never reached adulthood. How could God claim all are alike unto him if he withheld blessings based on the age at dearth or availability of marriage possibilities, things people have no agency over in many cases. I agree with you but I guess the Church sees it differently
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 52 minutes ago, Duncan said: why even endow them then, or go further down the line baptize and confirm them?, they can't ever get married in the Temple and you need that for exaltation. I am not, nor have I ever been, married to anyone let alone sealed in the temple. At this point, I harbour zero expectation that I will experience these things in mortality. Why would you wish to take away the unspeakable blessings that are mine as a result of my endowment, my baptism, and the sweet, sweet companionship of the Holy Ghost?
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I am not, nor have I ever been, married to anyone let alone sealed in the temple. At this point, I harbour zero expectation that I will experience these things in mortality. Why would you wish to take away the unspeakable blessings that are mine as a result of my endowment, my baptism, and the sweet, sweet companionship of the Holy Ghost? because there is a ceiling to the sealing apparently for gay people and without that sealing you get bupkus Edited March 5, 2020 by Duncan
Nacho2dope Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Did he really say that? It does seem over the top. He really said that. If I can find the video I will post it. It’s towards the end
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