Hamba Tuhan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 Just now, Duncan said: because there is a ceiling to the sealing apparently for gay people No, there isn't. And the fact that you would rob people like me of the blessings of the gospel makes me very glad you don't make these kinds of decisions. You've previously posted about your divorce. Would you rather give up all your blessings too, or is that reserved for people like me who've never married? 2
Nacho2dope Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Did he really say that? It does seem over the top. it’s around the 6 and a half minute mark. He said the people running around campus who have a problem with this don’t have a testimony of the apostles. It’s not exactly what I had said but I feel the same point was being made
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Duncan said: Elder Johnson said that homosexuals can't get sealed in the Temple so I suppose those scriptures don't apply to them somehow I assume he means same sex marriage sealings, not no marriage sealings at all. I don't think the scriptures don't apply any more to them than to a woman who as a youth was attracted to females, but when older was attracted to men (sexual fluidity is not uncommon) or a man and gets married. I think you are assuming that there is no such thing as sexual fluidity in the eternities. If it exists in mortality, why not eternity? You are thinking about sexual orientation in a very modern way, imo. The very idea of sexual orientation is a rrelatively modern one (not saying homosexual attraction and behaviour did not exist, it most definitely did and was often glorified over heterosexual attraction). Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 2
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: No, there isn't. And the fact that you would rob people like me of the blessings of the gospel makes me very glad you don't make these kinds of decisions. You've previously posted about your divorce. Would you rather give up all your blessings too, or is that reserved for people like me who've never married? Talk to the Church about robbing people of exaltation, i'm just going of what they say. It's not my idea. My ex wants nothing to do with the Church and my son is a cross dresser now and also wants nothing to do with the Church. What do gay people get in the Church? according to Elder Johnson, if you follow his logic they get nothing. I am also single and what can I hope for? Maybe a wife in the next life if what people say here is true? maybe?
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) Duncan, maybe you should take a day off or two and think about the assumptions you are bringing to that comment that leads you to interpret him to mean those with homosexual/same sex attraction in mortality will not be allowed to have a heterosexual sealing ever in the eternities. added: I didn't understand your POV is different from the Church's, I was thinking simple misunderstanding when it is a different paradigm...so ignore this please...not that you will likely go back and read this. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 1
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Duncan said: Maybe a wife in the next life if what people say here is true? maybe? Do you believe all are alike unto God or not? 1
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 Just now, Calm said: Duncan, maybe you should take a day off or two and think about the assumptions you are bringing to that comment that leads you to interpret him to mean those with homosexual/same sex attraction in mortality will not be allowed to have a heterosexual sealing ever in the eternities. I am only saying what the Church is saying ala Elder Paul Johnson, which I don't agree with. I think they will, and so all the flap and fuss over fighting against gay people here by the Church is for nothing, IMO 1
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Calm said: Do you believe all are alike unto God or not? yes, does the Church?
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Duncan said: I am only saying what the Church is saying ala Elder Paul Johnson... No, you are not. You are taking something said out of context. Do you believe same sex sealings will occur in the next life? If you do, I can understand why you think barring them now is wrong, but it is consistent if one believes same sex sealings won't occur in the next life, but all will have the blessings God promises those who obey, even if it seems impossible in this life. I believe somehow I will have the opportunity to have all the children I and my husband want and not just the two that I have, but it ain't happening in this life and I don't see how it can happen since I will be a spirit and then immortal...how to have mortal kids? Don't know and leaving it to God to fulfill his promises as he sees fit. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 1
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Duncan said: yes, does the Church? Yes. You yourself says the Church teaches blessings will be received in the next life if not given here. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Calm said: No, you are not. You are taking something said out of context. Do you believe same sex sealings will occur in the next life? If you do, I can understand why you think barring them now is wrong, but it is consistent if one believes same sex sealings won't occur in the next life, but all will have the blessings God promises those who obey, even if it seems impossible in this life. I believe somehow I will have the opportunity to have all the children I and my husband want and not just the two that I have, but it ain't happening in this life and I don't see how it can happen since I will be Spirit and then immortal...how to have mortal kids? Don't know and leaving it to God to fulfill his promises as he sees fit. “Same-sex romantic behavior cannot lead to eternal marriage and is therefore not compatible with the principles in the honor code,” this has been my consistent message of what Elder Johnson said and I extrapolated from there,no sealing, equals no exaltation, so, according to Elder Johnson's logic why bother teaching gay people, they won't be exalted, according to Elder Johnson. This has been my consistent message on here
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Duncan said: “Same-sex romantic behavior cannot lead to eternal marriage and is therefore not compatible with the principles in the honor code,” this has been my consistent message of what Elder Johnson said and I extrapolated from there,no sealing, equals no exaltation, so, according to Elder Johnson's logic why bother teaching gay people, they won't be exalted, according to Elder Johnson. This has been my consistent message on here So where does Elder Johnson state homosexuals will never be able to choose to act in the opposite sex romantic behaviours that lead to eternal marriage? Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 1
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted March 5, 2020 Popular Post Posted March 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Duncan said: Talk to the Church about robbing people of exaltation, i'm just going of what they say. No, you're not. Here's what 'they' say: 'The circumstances of some faithful members do not allow them to receive the blessings of eternal marriage and parenthood in this life. They will receive all promised blessings in the eternities, provided they keep the covenants they have made with God (see Mosiah 2:41)'. Quote What do gay people get in the Church? The same things I do. These include the 'words of eternal life', the fruits of the Spirit, the companionship of the Holy Ghost, revelation, visions, healing, an intimately supportive community, endless opportunities to grow and develop through service, the ministration of angels, forgiveness of sins, spiritual rebirth, access to the Father through prayer, access to the Son through His Atonement, access to the House of the Lord (including, as I do, serving therein), and the protective power of covenants. I could go on (and in detail) for several pages. Quote I am also single and what can I hope for? Maybe a wife in the next life if what people say here is true? maybe? Look, I don't blame you for feeling glum sometimes. I sometimes do! But as I told my former bishop many times when we were serving together, it would be enough if this is all there is. But the Lord has continually surprised me with more and then still more. He has demonstrated Himself to be a keeper of promises. The word hope in the New Testament properly defined means a future expectation based on past experience. I am a man of great hope specifically because my past and current experiences have been beyond expectation. You cannot get anywhere by challenging faith in Christ, either your own or someone else's. I told you in a PM some months ago that I would pray for you. I have done so, by name, every day since. I'm not stopping. 5
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said: No, you're not. Here's what 'they' say: 'The circumstances of some faithful members do not allow them to receive the blessings of eternal marriage and parenthood in this life. They will receive all promised blessings in the eternities, provided they keep the covenants they have made with God (see Mosiah 2:41)'. The same things I do. These include the 'words of eternal life', the fruits of the Spirit, the companionship of the Holy Ghost, revelation, visions, healing, an intimately supportive community, endless opportunities to grow and develop through service, the ministration of angels, forgiveness of sins, spiritual rebirth, access to the Father through prayer, access to the Son through His Atonement, access to the House of the Lord (including, as I do, serving therein), and the protective power of covenants. I could go on (and in detail) for several pages. Look, I don't blame you for feeling glum sometimes. I sometimes do! But as I told my former bishop many times when we were serving together, it would be enough if this is all there is. But the Lord has continually surprised me with more and then still more. He has demonstrated Himself to be a keeper of promises. The word hope in the New Testament properly defined means a future expectation based on past experience. I am a man of great hope specifically because my past and current experiences have been beyond expectation. You cannot get anywhere by challenging faith in Christ, either your own or someone else's. I told you in a PM some months ago that I would pray for you. I have done so, by name, every day since. I'm not stopping. Thank you most kindly!!!
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Calm said: So where does Elder Johnson state homosexuals will never be able to choose to act in the opposite sex romantic behaviours that lead to eternal marriage? when he said that they can't get sealed in the Temple because of their being gay and same sex behaviours. They can choose to not be gay, but how long does that last? even God said it's not good for man to be alone, but some would say that doesn't apply to gay people-I think it shouldn't but others say otherwise
Sunslight Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 6 hours ago, JulieM said: Do you have a link to the Q & A? (Thanks!) Was that just posted today with the letter? https://honorcode.byu.edu/q-a-with-the-director-of-byus-honor-code-office Yes, it posted today.
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Duncan said: when he said that they can't get sealed in the Temple because of their being gay and same sex behaviours. He isn’t saying they can’t be sealed because they are gay, but because of same sex behaviours. Quote They can choose to not be gay, but how long does that last? In the eternities with the help of Christ, I assume eternally. I think many heterosexuals look on gays like we are those who hear and gays are deaf and they don’t realize how great is is to be attracted to the opposite sex because they don’t ‘hear the music’ yet. But when they do, they will joyously accept it just like anyone deaf who once heard music and talking would never choose to go back to their deafness. However, they are wrong in that some who are deaf and who get the chance to hear choose deafness after hearing though I believe much more reject hearing without ever experiencing it. I think the next life we will be able to experience many things we cannot not now and so make an informed choice what to accept and what to reject on actual experience and not just based on how happy we are with the way things are and fear that if there is change, there will be loss. I also think those who make sacrifices to do without blessings in this life that others received will be ahead of the curve in many ways as true, pure sacrifice is something we will all need to learn and that opportunity rarely occurs for most of us imo in mortality, so it is likely going to be happening at the next stage if it didn’t happen premortality. I also think that when it comes to exaltation, it will turn out all our mortal expressions of our immortals souls including sexual preferences, personality types, and anything else we use to describe “Me” will turn out to be just different forms of deafness that we will all need to choose if we hold on to or accept God’s incomprehensible blessings that lead us to become a being like he is. I will not be the least bit surprised if heterosexuals have to put their sexual preferences on the altar right next to homosexuals and we will find out that being sexually attracted to the opposite sex might have been an advantage in mortality, but it is a burden in the eternity, a part of the natural man we must dispense with and instead learn to sexually prefer only the ones we are married to and no other. And it won’t be because they are make or female, but because they are Duncan perfected and Hamba perfected and Cal perfected and Bluebell perfected and it will be like we never looked at another and thought ‘that is someone I want to know better’ (in a romantic as well as a biblical sense). Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
Duncan Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Calm said: He isn’t saying they can’t be sealed because they are gay, but because of same sex behaviours. In the eternities with the help of Christ, I assume eternally. I think many heterosexuals look on gays like we are those who hear and gays are deaf and they don’t realize how great is is to be attracted to the opposite sex because they don’t ‘hear the music’ yet. But when they do, they will joyously accept it just like anyone deaf who once heard music and talking would never choose to go back to their deafness. However, they are wrong in that some who are deaf and who get the chance to hear choose deafness after hearing though I believe much more reject hearing without ever experiencing it. I think the next life we will be able to experience many things we cannot not now and so make an informed choice what to accept and what to reject on actual experience and not just based on how happy we are with the way things are and fear that if there is change, there will be loss. I also think that when it comes to exaltation, it will turn out all our mortal expressions of our immortals souls including sexual preferences, personality types, and anything else we use to describe “Me” will turn out to be just different forms of deafness that we will all need to choose if we hold on to or accept God’s incomprehensible blessings that lead us to become a being like he is. I will not be the least bit surprised if heterosexuals have to put their sexual preferences on the altar right next to homosexuals and we will find out that being sexually attracted to the opposite sex might have been an advantage in mortality, but it is a burden in the eternity, a part of the natural man we must dispense with and instead learn to sexually prefer only the ones we are married to and no other. And it won’t be because they are make or female, but because they are Duncan perfected and Hamba perfected and Cal perfected and Bluebell perfected and it will be like we never looked at another and thought ‘that is someone I want to know better’ (in a romantic as well as a biblical sense). who on earth would engage in same sex behaviours who isn't themselves gay? that doesn't make any sense. I am not going to go to a gay bar tonite and hope to sleep with some guy just because there' nothing good on the TV
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Duncan said: who on earth would engage in same sex behaviours who isn't themselves gay? that doesn't make any sense. I am not going to go to a gay bar tonite and hope to sleep with some guy just because there' nothing good on the TV No one is forced to engage in opposite sex sexual behaviours either. Celibacy is possible. You have heard of what happens in all male or female populations, right? Including ones determined by culture and not just power or domination sex that might occur in prisons. You are still thinking of sexual attraction in the rigid modern sense and not in the social, anthropological reality of sexual fluidity. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) I like this summary of sexual fluidity. Perhaps klindley can check it for me to see if I missed a problem with it. https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-sexual-fluidity-33120 I have posted a video by Lias Diamond before, let me know if someone prefers video with tons and tons of research. Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Duncan said: “Same-sex romantic behavior cannot lead to eternal marriage and is therefore not compatible with the principles in the honor code,” this has been my consistent message of what Elder Johnson said and I extrapolated from there,no sealing, equals no exaltation, so, according to Elder Johnson's logic why bother teaching gay people, they won't be exalted, according to Elder Johnson. This has been my consistent message on here You are taking what he said out of context. Same-sex romantic behavior cannot lead to eternal marriage — but heterosexual romantic behavior can. And all who are faithful will at some point have that opportunity and capability, regardless of their present station in life. Edited March 5, 2020 by Scott Lloyd
SteveO Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 27 minutes ago, Calm said: No one is forced to engage in opposite sex sexual behaviours either. Celibacy is possible. You have heard of what happens in all male or female populations, right? Including ones determined by culture and not just power or domination sex that might occur in prisons. You are still thinking of sexual attraction in the rigid modern sense and not in the social, anthropological reality of sexual fluidity. You referring to Jeff Robinson’s talk at FairMormon Conference? Should be required listening
mgy401 Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 It seems to me that certain BYU faculty and staff got so enamored of what they (thought they) could now get away with procedurally, that they completely lost sight of what was right (let alone any commitment to actually live accordingly). The new handbook specifically declines to address every form of sin. (32.6.2.5). But thoughtful people have always understood that taking deliberate steps towards sinful behavior is—if not outright sinful—pretty darned foolish in its own right. That’s why we look down on married men who act out on physical attraction to women who aren’t their wives, even if those men’s actions stops short of actual sex. As I read the Q&A in conjunction with the letter, what BYUHCO seems to be saying is: 1) Homosexual physical expressions of affection are morally wrong; BUT 2) As HCO employees, we really don’t want to be dealing with this sort of thing; AND 3) Even if we did get involved, there’s not a lot of punitive action we could take since this is more of an ecclesiastical endorsement issue than an HCO enforcement matter.
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Duncan said: when he said that they can't get sealed in the Temple because of their being gay and same sex behaviours. They can choose to not be gay, but how long does that last? even God said it's not good for man to be alone, but some would say that doesn't apply to gay people-I think it shouldn't but others say otherwise Duncan, do you see what Elder Johnson wrote today as contradicting church teachings? As something new? Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, SteveO said: You referring to Jeff Robinson’s talk at FairMormon Conference? Should be required listening Yes in part as he does refer to sexual fluidity and how to view it, but I think the link I posted goes into more depth on types and lacks a religious context which can add big baggage and impede understanding imo for some. Jeff is my brother in law and I like his stuff a lot and have great discussions at family reunions I wish I could record because .i think it would help people understand his POV better, so not saying don't read that talk or others. That conversation.com link just provides a great summary I only saw in a video before and I am happy to have found a not too technical text to share that covers the range of fluidity in regards to a variety of groups (male and female being the obvious one). Edited March 5, 2020 by Calm 1
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