Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 26 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yep. There is a whole category of theology dedicated to that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology Interesting tidbit of information. So what I am interested in is what you might call cataphatic theology, which approaches God or the Divine by affirmations or positive statements about what God is. If we start talking about what God is not we could be here forever.
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 32 minutes ago, pogi said: How do you know? Oh ya, scripture is only true and from God when it agrees with your perspective - I forgot! Either you are diminishing God by pretending like you can comprehend him, or you are elevating yourself (but that seems to be normal for you). He is greater than you are able to comprehend or utter in mortality. That is truth. Is God not greater than what he comprehends? Is God not greater than his works? For someone who was saying nothing you are now speaking for some reason. Are you on a roll now? If you are, don't stop. Go ahead keep talking about what God is.
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Ahab said: If we start talking about what God is not we could be here forever. Actually, we would stop wasting our time coming here to find/define God and turn to prayer to experience the ineffable God instead. If we could capture God in word, then we wouldn't need God anymore. 1
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 Just now, pogi said: Actually, we would stop wasting our time coming here to find/define God and turn to prayer to experience the ineffable God instead. We are God, too, though. Not as perfect as our Father but still we are what God is, as a kind of being and what our Father once was. I think we can help each other to grow by sharing what we have learned with each other. Still staying in touch with our Father, of course, but also learning from each other and what he has taught us. I don't think we're supposed to say nothing at all about God and just tell everyone else to go to him if they need some help with something. As disciples of Jesus Christ we have a shared responsibility to help each other. Or at least that is how I see things, in my perspective. Just now, pogi said: If we could capture God in word, then we wouldn't need God anymore. We have him and we have us and we couldn't get rid of ourselves if we wanted to though. We're stuck with ourselves even if we never become as perfect as our Father in heaven. We are what we are all about and the point, I think, is to share and keep sharing with each other.
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 11 minutes ago, Ahab said: For someone who was saying nothing you are now speaking for some reason. Are you on a roll now? If you are, don't stop. Go ahead keep talking about what God is. Calling him ineffable is not defining what he is.
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, pogi said: Calling him ineffable is not defining what he is. You were saying some things about God. Are you trying to backpedal now?
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: We are God, too, though. Not as perfect as our Father but still we are what God is, as a kind of being and what our Father once was. If man is what our "God once was", and if God is what man "may become", then we are not God - yet. 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: I think we can help each other to grow by sharing what we have learned with each other. Still staying in touch with our Father, of course, but also learning from each other and what he has taught us. I don't think we're supposed to say nothing at all about God and just tell everyone else to go to him if they need some help with something. As disciples of Jesus Christ we have a shared responsibility to help each other. Or at least that is how I see things, in my perspective. We have him and we have us and we couldn't get rid of ourselves if we wanted to though. We're stuck with ourselves even if we never become as perfect as our Father in heaven. We are what we are all about and the point, I think, is to share and keep sharing with each other. I am all for sharing about our experiences with God, and sharing our perspectives, but I understand that all of my verbal expressions fall short. I don't pretend to be able to define or describe the elephant as it truly is. If you want to better understand God, speak less and listen more. Edited February 11, 2020 by pogi 2
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: You were saying some things about God. Are you trying to backpedal now? Saying things about God, and saying what God is or defining God are two different things. “From my perspective God is like...” “The Kingdom of Heaven is like...” All good. Edited February 11, 2020 by pogi 1
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 Just now, pogi said: If man is what our "Father once was", and if God is what man "may become", then we are not God - yet. When God is used in that sense it is a reference to our Father in heaven, not to our kind of being. As a kind of being, we are already the same kind of being our Father is. We are just not as perfect as he is, if we ever will be. Just now, pogi said: I am all for sharing about our experiences with God, and sharing our perspectives, but I understand that all of my verbal expressions fall short. I don't pretend to be able to define or describe the elephant as it truly is. You don't need to pretend. You already know on some level. Embrace that fact. You can start from wherever you are and help to teach others whatever you already know about God as a kind of being and as our Father in heaven. Just now, pogi said: If you want to better understand God, speak less and listen more. The irony is as thick as I think I have ever seen it before. You don't need to tell me I need to listen to our Father in heaven, or to you. I stay in touch with him or at least try to stay in touch with our Father all day every day. I'm just trying to get you to speak more.
pogi Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Ahab said: When God is used in that sense it is a reference to our Father in heaven, not to our kind of being. As a kind of being, we are already the same kind of being our Father is. We are just not as perfect as he is, if we ever will be. If by “being” you mean “species”, I agree. It is my opinion that “God” is a title/calling/position of authority whereas “human” is the type of being we are. Unless you disagree that we are human (type of being), or that God (title/position) is an exalted human (type of being). Edited February 12, 2020 by pogi
Ahab Posted February 12, 2020 Author Posted February 12, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: If by “being” you mean “species”, I agree. It is my opinion that “God” is a title/calling/position of authority whereas “human” is the type of being we are. Unless you disagree that we are human, or that God (title/position) is an exalted human (type of being). I think human is a word that was introduced to try to lead people away from the idea that we are the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, the kind of being we refer to as God, with our Father as the pinnacle of how perfect we can become. I think Satan has tried to get all of us who were born here on this planet to believe that we are alone here, with nobody else we can turn to for help and guidance, other than those who are on this planet with us and that even then we should act independently rather than working together. Trying to keep us ignorant of why we came here and what the plan was in the beginning before we came here. I think a lot of the confusion we now have about our standing with God, or the kind of being God is, comes from not understanding the kind of being we are. You can use whatever word you want to use to refer to the idea that our Father is better than us, more perfect than us, but you and everyone else should realize we are the same kind of being and we came here to get an education. To learn the difference between good and evil, and to grow in intelligence by learning what our Father has learned. Some of us have learned some things that some others have not learned but most of us are still making progress. At some point the veil will be lifted and we'll all remember why we came here and we'll see how well or how badly we did. And we'll still have our Savior. And I'll still want to be as perfect as our Father, someday.
pogi Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ahab said: I think... I think... I agree, you think. If “human” is a word used to deceive and confuse people as to what we really are, I guess the devil had a huge influence in these revelations: sons of Mosiah cannot bear that any human soul should perish, Mosiah 28:3. great and last sacrifice shall not be human sacrifice, Alma 34:10. every soul who belongs to whole human family of Adam must stand before judgment-seat of Christ, Morm. 3:20. human law has no right to prescribe rules of worship, D&C 134:4. Joseph Smith displays foibles of human nature, JS—H 1:28. The gospel topics essay “Becoming Like God” uses the word “human” 41 times. It is about “becoming God” ie “deification” - but apparently you don’t believe in deification, because we already are God. Edited February 12, 2020 by pogi 1
MiserereNobis Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yep. There is a whole category of theology dedicated to that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology I love St. John of the Cross (and the "Cloud of Unknowing"). A huge part of my spiritual path for sure. 2
MiserereNobis Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) Pogi, you're fighting the good fight against Ahab's fascist linguistic anarchy. Anarchy, because none of the normal rules of language and definition apply when he speaks, and fascist, because he demands that everyone follow his use language and definition. I have enjoyed your attempts at pointing out the absurdity going on. I wonder, if Samuel Beckett were alive, if he could make a play out of this thread. Maybe Beckett and Wittgenstein get together and write a tragicomedy about language and God as proclaimed by Ahab. I've said it before. Ahab is the quintessential Manchurian candidate troll, because his posts almost always force a response out of me (and others) as is the purpose of a troll, yet he has no idea that he is trolling. Bravo! Edited February 12, 2020 by MiserereNobis 2
The Nehor Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 20 hours ago, stemelbow said: So if Timmy took Suzie's lollipop and never apologized or got her a new one, and then also never repented to God, Timmy will have to sit and think about how he took her lollipop and brazenly ate it up for 1,000 years? Say Timmy also, years later, swindled poor Suzie out of money so he could feed a drug habit. After recovery Timmy paid her back and did all he could to provide restitution. But still forgot about his stealing her lollipop and never made amends on that? Is he condemned for his youthful infraction even though he tried later on? If we don't know, and it's all on God to decide the out come here, then what's the point of making this all a point in the first place? We all do something stupid and ends up hurting someone, but we also make amends and repair relationships, and try to help others. If God needs us to account for each and every instance from our days after 8 and up, then he's just being overly petty. If He doesn't need us to, then this whole point is just useless, and so is scripture. Everyone already does what scripture says without ever really having to think about or read those scriptures. You really have that straw man on the ropes now. Just keep pounding on it and I bet you will take it down eventually.
stemelbow Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: You really have that straw man on the ropes now. Just keep pounding on it and I bet you will take it down eventually. I'm trying to imagine what you're telling me. I figured you were suggesting many people, if not most, would be spewed out of God's mouth to suffer like Jesus did for a good millennia before God will redeem them? Calm brought up the example of murdering people. But I don't imagine most people have committed murder. Most infraction that hurt people are pretty minor, it seems to me. So, it sounds like, along with murderers, there'll be a ton of people feeling bad for silly things like taking someone's candy, or ignoring them in a social situation or something. Either that or you have a pretty sad view of humanity. WHat do you think?
Ahab Posted February 12, 2020 Author Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, pogi said: I agree, you think. We all think whatever we think. No need for you to keep pointing out what should be obvious to everybody. Quote If “human” is a word used to deceive and confuse people as to what we really are, I guess the devil had a huge influence in these revelations: sons of Mosiah cannot bear that any human soul should perish, Mosiah 28:3. great and last sacrifice shall not be human sacrifice, Alma 34:10. every soul who belongs to whole human family of Adam must stand before judgment-seat of Christ, Morm. 3:20. human law has no right to prescribe rules of worship, D&C 134:4. Joseph Smith displays foibles of human nature, JS—H 1:28. The gospel topics essay “Becoming Like God” uses the word “human” 41 times. It is about “becoming God” ie “deification” - but apparently you don’t believe in deification, because we already are God. The word human when used by prophets is meant to convey that we are not as perfect as our Father in heaven yet but we still teach that we are already the same kind of being. The word human when used by secular humanists and Catholics and Protestants and some other people is intended to convey that we are not the same king of being God is. Words do have more than only one meaning and we all need to try to keep that in mind. Becoming "deified" is simply about becoming as perfect as our Eternal Father and Jesus Christ. We're not going to become another kind of being. Just more perfect like him, and them, if we ever progress to that point. Becoming perfect is something we have to strive for. It isn't going to just happen automatically. Does someone else really need to teach you this stuff before you will know it is true? Why couldn't you have simply said these same things yourself? I still love teaching the gospel but it sure would be nice to get some support every once in a while from you and some other people on this board who act as if they would prefer that I simply shut up. Or be silenced. Or go away. Or die. Edited February 12, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted February 12, 2020 Author Posted February 12, 2020 16 hours ago, pogi said: If by “being” you mean “species”, I agree. It is my opinion that “God” is a title/calling/position of authority whereas “human” is the type of being we are. Unless you disagree that we are human (type of being), or that God (title/position) is an exalted human (type of being). Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Moses 1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all. Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Doctrine and Covenants 76:58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
mfbukowski Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: I still love teaching the gospel but it sure would be nice to get some support every once in a while from you and some other people on this board who act as if they would prefer that I simply shut up. Or be silenced. Or go away. Or die. Please just remember we are all here to teach each other and all of us feel as if we're called to teach everyone as well. But none of us are.
Ahab Posted February 12, 2020 Author Posted February 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Please just remember we are all here to teach each other and all of us feel as if we're called to teach everyone as well. But none of us are. I believe all saints are called to the work even if not all of us have been chosen. Thrust in your sickle with all of your might, yada yada yada. You didn't forget, did you? Or are you just not agreeing with me, again?
mfbukowski Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: I believe all saints are called to the work even if not all of us have been chosen. Thrust in your sickle with all of your might, yada yada yada. You didn't forget, did you? Or are you just not agreeing with me, again? Please re-read the first 11 words of my previous post. I am done arguing about semantics Edited February 12, 2020 by mfbukowski
Ahab Posted February 12, 2020 Author Posted February 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Please re-read the first 11 words of my previous post. I am done arguing about semantics Yes I know those 11 words are true. We're all here to teach each other. So maybe our focus should be to try to learn from each other, too. Not just here to teach but to learn from each other, too. A little more listening and a little more seeing the common ground we are on would be very nice. And it's more about attitude than it is about semantics. Listening with a kind heart instead of to find fault would be very nice, too.
pogi Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ahab said: Words do have more than only one meaning and we all need to try to keep that in mind. That's funny coming from you, considering how this conversation started with me asking you to consider different contexts of how the word "intelligence" is used and how it can mean different things in different contexts. You insisted that you were "defining intelligence by what it actually is" and that any other use is wrong, "...even if you do not agree". I'm glad to see that you are finally getting it though, congrats! 1 hour ago, Ahab said: A little more listening and a little more seeing the common ground we are on would be very nice. Do you mean that pretending like you are the ultimate arbiter of truth by saying things "this is how it is even if you disagree" (probably your most commonly used phrase on these forums) is not helpful to healthy dialogue? It would be really awesome if you practice what you preach. Just sayin' Bye Edited February 12, 2020 by pogi
Ahab Posted February 12, 2020 Author Posted February 12, 2020 24 minutes ago, pogi said: That's funny coming from you, considering how this conversation started with me asking you to consider different contexts of how the word "intelligence" is used and how it can mean different things in different contexts. You insisted that you were "defining intelligence by what it actually is" and that any other use is wrong, "...even if you do not agree". I'm glad to see that you are finally getting it though, congrats! CFR please. I think maybe you don't understand what I meant. 24 minutes ago, pogi said: Do you mean that pretending like you are the ultimate arbiter of truth by saying things "this is how it is even if you disagree" (probably your most commonly used phrase on these forums) is not helpful to healthy dialogue? I state what I believe and what I don't believe and what I agree with and what I don't agree with, the same as you do. I think I just do it a little nicer than you do. 24 minutes ago, pogi said: It would be really awesome if you practice what you preach. Just sayin' Bye Yeah, like that's conducive to polite conversation. Looks like a flippant remark from you to me. Where is the love, bro? Come here and give me a hug. And a kissy kissy.
pogi Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) Quote CFR please. I think maybe you don't understand what I meant. On 2/11/2020 at 12:25 PM, Ahab said: Intelligence, which is light and truth. On 2/11/2020 at 12:38 PM, pogi said: You are not defining intelligence the way most people would. On 2/11/2020 at 12:46 PM, Ahab said: I am defining intelligence by what it actually is. By what our Lord has told us it is. I feel confident you can find that in our scriptures if you want to find it. On 2/11/2020 at 12:51 PM, pogi said: Context my friend. If you want to communicate with others, you can't expect them to use these terms the way the scriptures do. Not even Latter-day Saints use the word "intelligent" the way the scriptures do in most contexts. On 2/11/2020 at 1:03 PM, Ahab said: It's the same thing people think of as intelligence. On 2/11/2020 at 1:19 PM, pogi said: No, it is not. In fact, if you were to say that "intelligence is light and truth" most people would have no clue as to what you are talking about (I'm not sure I even understand it without defining those terms - Good luck with that!). Not the same at all. On 2/11/2020 at 1:27 PM, Ahab said: Yes it is the same thing even though you do not agree. And there you have it! This shows your complete unwillingness to acknowledge that the word "intelligence" is used in different ways and it also highlights your arrogance in thinking you are the ultimate arbiter of truth. I kept trying to tell you that the word "intelligence' generally is not considered to have a moral component. You refused to accept that, even though it is true that it is used that way, defined that way, and assessed that way using IQ tests etc. Edited February 12, 2020 by pogi 2
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