stemelbow Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 15 hours ago, The Nehor said: I have identified your primary problem here. So if Timmy took Suzie's lollipop and never apologized or got her a new one, and then also never repented to God, Timmy will have to sit and think about how he took her lollipop and brazenly ate it up for 1,000 years? Say Timmy also, years later, swindled poor Suzie out of money so he could feed a drug habit. After recovery Timmy paid her back and did all he could to provide restitution. But still forgot about his stealing her lollipop and never made amends on that? Is he condemned for his youthful infraction even though he tried later on? If we don't know, and it's all on God to decide the out come here, then what's the point of making this all a point in the first place? We all do something stupid and ends up hurting someone, but we also make amends and repair relationships, and try to help others. If God needs us to account for each and every instance from our days after 8 and up, then he's just being overly petty. If He doesn't need us to, then this whole point is just useless, and so is scripture. Everyone already does what scripture says without ever really having to think about or read those scriptures.
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, stemelbow said: Well if I were magically immortal with powers from on high I would just make a rock taste good. I don't think you should assume that you would ever be able to make a rock taste good. Actually I don't think you should assume anything. There is no rational reason to think you would ever be able to make a rock taste good. I suppose you could try adding some nice herbs and spices in a skillet with some rocks but what would taste good would be the herbs and spices, not the rocks. You need to try to use reasonable thoughts when considering things like this, otherwise you'll become one of those people who think they can make square circles and other strange things like that. Quote I wouldn't worry about what would taste good to a mortal at all. I"m not just trying to have fun here. I'm trying to make sense of what is being said and sometimes that takes some absurd ideas. Have you seen the movie 'Defending Your Life"? It's a comedy and you might like it. The so-called big brain immortal people ate something which to so-called little brain immortal people tasted terrible, with the big brain people saying it didn't taste the same as it did to little brain people because the big brain people used their big brains to determine how they thought it tasted. Meanwhile the so-called little brain people were still eating the same kinds of food they usually ate while they were mortal and it somehow tasted even better than it did while they were mortal. Eggs, bacon, chocolates, pasta, shrimp, etc. I think I'd just rather use my taste buds to determine how something tastes than try to use my mind to think it somehow tastes better. Edited February 11, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Analytics said: The idea that a most "supreme kind of being" even makes sense reminds me of the following quote from Douglas Adams: “For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.” Yeah, goes to show which kind of being is actually the most intelligent. Unless you believe what someone said the dolphins believed showed more intelligence than what our kind of being generally believes and is able to accomplish. Some people believe they are more intelligent than some other people when they are actually not as intelligent as those people. I sometimes wonder if people of terrestrial or telestial glory believe they are more intelligent than people of celestial glory. What some people believe isn't necessarily true. And what some people believe dolphins believe isn't necessarily true, either. Edited February 11, 2020 by Ahab
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Yeah, goes to show which kind of being is actually the most intelligent. Unless you believe what someone said the dolphins believed showed more intelligence than what our kind of being generally believes and is able to accomplish. Some people believe they are more intelligent than some other people when they are actually not as intelligent as those people. I sometimes wonder if people of terrestrial or telestial glory believe they are more intelligent than people of celestial glory. What some people believe isn't necessarily true. And what some people believe dolphins believe isn't necessarily true, either. What is more important, intelligence or wisdom? Intelligence is only a virtue in the hands of the wise - otherwise there is nothing more dangerous to the well being of our entire planet than intelligence. Humans have proven this to be true. 1
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, pogi said: What is more important, intelligence or wisdom? Intelligence is only a virtue in the hands of the wise - otherwise there is nothing more dangerous to the well being of our entire planet than intelligence. Humans have proven this to be true. Intelligence, which is light and truth. Light because it helps us to see truth and the value of truth and the value of all other things, too, including the value of wisdom. If we had more wisdom than intelligence the extra wisdom wouldn't do us any good because we wouldn't have any more intelligence to use along with it, but by having more intelligence we can develop as much wisdom as we have the intelligence to do so and then we're as well off as we can possibly be. People who do stupid things are not very intelligent, in my opinion. It's not enough to just know some things, like being able to answer a bunch of trivial questions. We need to actually use that intelligence to make wise decisions, and with intelligence we can know how to do that. Edited February 11, 2020 by Ahab
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: Intelligence, which is light and truth. Light because it helps us to see truth and the value of truth and the value of all other things, too, including the value of wisdom. If we had more wisdom than intelligence the extra wisdom wouldn't do us any good because we wouldn't have any more intelligence to use along with it, but by having more intelligence we can develop as much wisdom as we have the intelligence to do so and then we're as well of as we can possibly be. People who do stupid things are not very intelligent, in my opinion. It's not enough to just know some things, like being able to answer a bunch of trivial questions. We need to actually use that intelligence to make wise decisions, and with intelligence we can know how to do that. You are not defining intelligence the way most people would. It takes a highly intelligent person to develop a weapon of mass destruction, for example.
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: You are not defining intelligence the way most people would. It takes a highly intelligent person to develop a weapon of mass destruction, for example. I am defining intelligence by what it actually is. By what our Lord has told us it is. I feel confident you can find that in our scriptures if you want to find it. A highly intelligent person wouldn't develop a weapon of mass destruction, in my perspective. A person with some intelligence might be able to figure out how to do it but I wouldn't say he was highly intelligent if he actually developed it. Thinking a highly intelligent person would do something like that is akin to thinking a highly intelligent person would sin or refuse to seek out God to learn from him. Highly intelligent people just do not do things like that. They are intelligent enough to know that would be stupid.
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: I am defining intelligence by what it actually is. By what our Lord has told us it is. I feel confident you can find that in our scriptures if you want to find it. A highly intelligent person wouldn't develop a weapon of mass destruction, in my perspective. A person with some intelligence might be able to figure out how to do it but I wouldn't say he was highly intelligent if he actually developed it. Thinking a highly intelligent person would do something like that is akin to thinking a highly intelligent person would sin or refuse to seek out God to learn from him. Highly intelligent people just do not do things like that. They are intelligent enough to know that would be stupid. Context my friend. If you want to communicate with others, you can't expect them to use these terms the way the scriptures do. Not even Latter-day Saints use the word "intelligent" the way the scriptures do in most contexts. 2
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, pogi said: Context my friend. If you want to communicate with others, you can't expect them to use these terms the way the scriptures do. Not even Latter-day Saints use the word "intelligent" the way the scriptures do in most contexts. It's the same thing people think of as intelligence. Our Lord just shared a better way of defining what it is for us and we can use what he told us to build on an incomplete understanding of what it is. Think of the CIA, for example. The job of that agency, supposedly, is to gather intelligence. Finding out what is going on and what has happened in specific details. And the more they investigate the more intelligence they can gather until they reach their limits and can gather no more. Then their job is to look at the intelligence they have gathered and try to make some wise decision(s) from all of those details they have gathered. Other people do pretty much the same thing. Sometimes we then try to quantify how intelligent someone is by how much intelligence they have gathered and what they do or have done with that intelligence they have gathered. And if they did something stupid with it then we say they didn't act very intelligently or didn't show very much intelligence by what they chose to do with the intelligence they had to work with. As you might say, not very wise, but they did have the intelligence they needed to make wise decisions and they just didn't do it. Edited February 11, 2020 by Ahab
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Ahab said: It's the same thing people think of as intelligence. No, it is not. Intelligence is generally not defined by how it is used for "good" or "evil". There is no moral value to it. For example, using tools is considered evidence of intelligence in the animal kingdom. There is no moral judgement as to how the tools are used. In fact, if you were to say that "intelligence is light and truth" most people would have no clue as to what you are talking about (I'm not sure I even understand it without defining those terms - Good luck with that!). Not the same at all. Edited February 11, 2020 by pogi 2
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, pogi said: No, it is not. Intelligence is generally not defined by how it is used for "good" or "evil". There is no moral value to it. For example, using tools is considered evidence of intelligence in the animal kingdom. There is no moral judgement as to how the tools are used. Yes it is the same thing even though you do not agree. Doing something good is a sign of intelligence and doing something bad is not considered an intelligent thing to do. We can disagree on what we think is good or evil but when it comes right down to it, if something isn't considered to be a good thing to do, it isn't considered an intelligent thing to do, either. We don't say people are intelligent when they do bad things. Or at least I don't. Do you? Why would anyone consider anyone doing anything bad as an intelligent thing to do? Can you answer that for me? That doesn't sound like a sign of intelligence to me. Edited February 11, 2020 by Ahab
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 37 minutes ago, Ahab said: Yes it is the same thing even though you do not agree. Doing something good is a sign of intelligence and doing something bad is not considered an intelligent thing to do. We can disagree on what we think is good or evil but when it comes right down to it, if something isn't considered to be a good thing to do, it isn't considered an intelligent thing to do, either. We don't say people are intelligent when they do bad things. Or at least I don't. Do you? Why would anyone consider anyone doing anything bad as an intelligent thing to do? Can you answer that for me? That doesn't sound like a sign of intelligence to me. Again, morality is generally not considered a factor when when assessing intelligence by the rest of the world ("even if you do not agree" - to use your favorite phrase), despite your defiant ignorance of how other people speak. A commonly accepted and standardized measure or assessment of intelligence is the IQ test. Curiously, morality is not a factor in the test. 47 minutes ago, Ahab said: We don't say people are intelligent when they do bad things. By "we" you mean "you"...right? https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1920/10/15/criminals-are-highly-intelligent Criminal masterminds have long been a staple of popular culture. Many are considered to be so intelligent as to be called "genius". If you want to understand how other people use words, perhaps you should shut up about how you see things and listen. 39 minutes ago, Ahab said: That doesn't sound like a sign of intelligence to me. Good, now you are getting it!
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: Again, morality is generally not considered a factor when when assessing intelligence by the rest of the world ("even if you do not agree" - to use your favorite phrase), despite your defiant ignorance of how other people speak. Then perhaps the general populace should consider it when telling others how intelligent they think someone is. If someone does something really stupid, should they still consider that person to be highly intelligent? I don't think so. Possessing some intelligence, yes of course we all have some intelligence, but the act of stupidity should give them a clue that that person, overall, is not acting highly intelligently and is therefore at least sometimes their actions are not representative of what highly intelligent people should do. 1 minute ago, pogi said: A commonly accepted and standardized measure or assessment of intelligence is the IQ test. Curiously, morality is not a factor in the test. Hence we have some people who think that when people do things that are evil, they are still somehow highly intelligent people. As if highly intelligent people can do evil things. As if there is no regard for morality when determining how intelligent someone is. Something that is commonly accepted as a standardized measure isn't necessarily right, though, is it. Nor it is necessarily good, or highly intelligent, either. 1 minute ago, pogi said: By "we" you mean "you"...right? Do you say people are highly intelligent when they do bad things, intentionally? No of course I don't and I don't think anybody with at least a moderate level of intelligence does or would either. 1 minute ago, pogi said: https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1920/10/15/criminals-are-highly-intelligent Criminal masterminds have long been a staple of popular culture. Many are considered to be so intelligent as to be called "genius". If you want to understand how other people use words, perhaps you should shut up about how you see things and listen. I have heard you and I have heard the opinions of the general populace and I see no good reason to cave in to that ideology or frame of mind. In my mind, people who are highly intelligent do not do stupid things and any stupid thing anyone does is a sign of their stupidity, to me. And anyone doing anything evil, intentionally, is doing something stupid, in my perspective. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, please. What do you think God is?
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 9 minutes ago, Ahab said: Then perhaps the general populace should consider it when telling others how intelligent they think someone is. If someone does something really stupid, should they still consider that person to be highly intelligent? I don't think so. Possessing some intelligence, yes of course we all have some intelligence, but the act of stupidity should give them a clue that that person, overall, is not acting highly intelligently and is therefore at least sometimes their actions are not representative of what highly intelligent people should do. Hence we have some people who think that when people do things that are evil, they are still somehow highly intelligent people. As if highly intelligent people can do evil things. As if there is no regard for morality when determining how intelligent someone is. Something that is commonly accepted as a standardized measure isn't necessarily right, though, is it. Nor it is necessarily good, or highly intelligent, either. Do you say people are highly intelligent when they do bad things, intentionally? No of course I don't and I don't think anybody with at least a moderate level of intelligence does or would either. I have heard you and I have heard the opinions of the general populace and I see no good reason to cave in to that ideology or frame of mind. In my mind, people who are highly intelligent do not do stupid things and any stupid thing anyone does is a sign of their stupidity, to me. And anyone doing anything evil, intentionally, is doing something stupid, in my perspective. I think you missed my point. 9 minutes ago, Ahab said: f Anyway, back to the topic at hand, please. What do you think God is? God is ineffable.
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, pogi said: I think you missed my point. And I think you missed mine. Oh well. Quote God is ineffable. Oh come on. You could at least try a little bit to at least give some basic ideas. We're able to do better than that in our dictionaries and with Wikipedia and some books we have written. Are you thinking saying less is saying more? No, it doesn't really work that way, bro. By saying that to people you're not doing very much to try to tell them about what you think God is or what God means to you. I think you could do much better than that if you really wanted to. But for now, you don't. Oh well. Edited February 11, 2020 by Ahab
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: Oh come on. You could at least try a little bit to at least give some basic ideas. We're able to do better than that in our dictionaries and with Wikipedia and some books we have written. Are you thinking saying less is saying more? No, it doesn't really work that way, bro. By saying that to people you're not doing very much to try to tell them about what you think God is or what God means to you. I think you could do much better than that if you really wanted to. But for now, you don't. Oh well. It is more true than anything you can speak with your corrupt/inadequate language and limited/veiled perspective. Edited February 11, 2020 by pogi 2
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, pogi said: It is more true than anything you can speak with your corrupt language and limited perspective. No it's not. We can give others at least some good and true ideas regarding what God is and that is better than giving others no good or true ideas. God is a kind of being, for example. The same kind of being we are, as another example. A word we usually use to refer to our Father in heaven, as another example, and we can also acknowledge that he is not our only example. Lots and lots of good and true things we could say about God. But instead you say nothing. Oh well.
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Ahab said: No it's not. Yes it is, even if you disagree (just some of your own medicine).
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, pogi said: Yes it is, even if you disagree (just some of your own medicine). Still is not, even if you disagree forever. Edited February 11, 2020 by Ahab
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: Still is not, even if you disagree forever. Yes it is, even if you disagree forever and infinity +1 2
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 Just now, pogi said: Yes it is, even if you disagree forever and infinity +1 Still is not even if you disagree forever and infinity multiplied by infinity by a factor of infinite infinities.
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 Quote “… No tongue can speak, neither can there be written by any man, neither can the hearts of men conceive so great and marvelous things as we both saw and heard Jesus speak.” And that was just a prayer to God! Is God not greater than the prayer? 2
Ahab Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 Just now, pogi said: And that was just a prayer to God! Is God not greater than the prayer? He was just giving his own opinion. God didn't tell him to say that.
pogi Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Ahab said: He was just giving his own opinion. God didn't tell him to say that. How do you know? Oh ya, scripture is only true and from God when it agrees with your perspective - I forgot! Either you are diminishing God by pretending like you can comprehend him, or you are elevating yourself (but that seems to be normal for you). He is greater than you are able to comprehend or utter in mortality. That is truth. Quote ...believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend. (Mosiah 4) Is God not greater than what he comprehends? Quote While God is able to comprehend and govern all things, we mortals struggle to comprehend even the most rudimentary of His works. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2013/08/worlds-without-number?lang=eng Is God not greater than his works? Edited February 11, 2020 by pogi 1
mfbukowski Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, pogi said: I think you missed my point. God is ineffable. Yep. There is a whole category of theology dedicated to that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology Quote Apophatic theology, also known as negative theology,[1] is a form of theological thinking and religious practice which attempts to approach God, the Divine, by negation, to speak only in terms of what may not be said about the perfect goodness that is God.[web 1] It forms a pair together with cataphatic theology, which approaches God or the Divine by affirmations or positive statements about what God is.[web 2] The apophatic tradition is often, though not always, allied with the approach of mysticism, which aims at the vision of God, the perception of the divine reality beyond the realm of ordinary perception.[2] Edited February 11, 2020 by mfbukowski 3
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