A clarification thread, to set the record, or misunderstanding straight, concerning the “First Presidency Message”.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Despite my search in, or on, the LDS.ORG,  website, I was unable to locate and post the entire message verbatim, which I wanted to do with this thread. I do however humbly ask (or hope) that someone with more computer savvy than myself (which would probably mean most everyone over the age of 3-4, such is my woeful skills of computers ), could help me do so. In simple terms, I fully support the message of the First Presidency, that calls upon all Latter-day Saints to use any,  “appropriate and legal means”, to aid all refugees, I also know that countless millions, who are now, as well in past history, were and are driven out of their own lands, which they loved as much as we love our own. Even today they are driven out, or cast out for a host of reasons. Chief among these many reasons are, war, famine, political persecution and incarceration, because even speaking out against unjust dictators, can led to imprisonment or death, and disease, just to name a few. Nations like, North Korea, China, Russia in recent history, and others, caused by chance, which includes  drought and famine, horrible economic downturns, or depression.  Our compassion, or my own is born , but from scripture and the reaching of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is, “Love, Hope and Charity”,, the greatest of these being “Love”. I also desire to be like him,, and  continue to emulate him in every way, and follow his example, as taught to us by the Church Presidency, calling upon us, too exercise these principles, and live by these words, and our deeds, to “Love our neighbors as ourselves”,. a constant motto under which we are called upon to alive. 
 

My previous thread caused (I think) others to misunderstand me, and my responses to questions posed by other posters. Therefore I wish to answer some of the questions to help others see my original intent, and follow the advice of one poster not to address to many topics at once. However as a result of the original thread supporting the First Presidency’s message, some very interesting and intriguing comments emerged, that maybe need some exploring, or examination. 
 

1. One poster brought into question, or implied that many of our laws were immoral, and used a 19th century quote from (I believe) the President of the Quorum of the Twelve, who was seeking to defend polygamy, and laws that outlawed them (from 1882, if memory serves). However, using it in an attempt (I believe) to suggest we can choose to obey the laws we agree with, and disregard the laws we disagree with. Of course this would be in violation of the message I noted, from the First Presidency, and the 12th Article of Faith, and countless verses of scripture
 

2. Another poster suggested, or stated that any border, and the Nations who establish them are either immoral or in violation of any scripture,  the Gospel, and the teachings of Church and Jesus Christ.

3. When I addressed the serious homeless issues in a few cities and States, and the outbreak, and reintroduction of once eradicated diseases in the U.S. A posted just seemed to just point out I listed one “disease”, incorrectly, one eradicated “Worldwide”. 
 

I wish to point out, that I support the message of the First Presidency,  but I also support the “rule of law”. It may be because I am a retired Police Officer, and even though I am retired, and no longer under oath to the City of Atlanta. I can never be released from my oath from serving in the Army, “to support and defend the Constitution of the United States”. 
 

So, even if we might disagree with the laws of our country in which we are citizens, as Latter-day Saints, we are not allowed to violate the laws of those countries. But, when it comes to refugees, if they are here illegally, there is no law against, feeding, housing, or clothing the “cold, naked or hungry”. In fact we are not required to ask for a green card, to help anyone in this way, or to help, especially now at Christmas. Nor are Bishops required to ask if those who live in their Wards, if they are here in any Nation, for their visas or passports. 
 

So, I pray this answers all questions about the earlier questions or comments that might have suggested I was either bigoted, or UN-Christlike. If not, I can only wish it did. But, I am pro-Church, pro-Church Leadership, pro-American, and try my best to Christlike, and serve my fellowman, no matter their race, creed, or color. 
 

My desire is to discuss the proper understanding of the wonderful request made to us by our First Presidency, concerning those who are, “cold, naked, and hungry”, and our obligation to care for them when ever we can. But, to do as we were asked, and to do so, within all lawful means. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Hamba Tuhan]

First Presidency Statement on Refugees

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are deeply committed to living the two great commandments to love God and love our neighbor. We feel tremendous joy in helping all of God’s children, no matter where they may live in this world.

It is therefore with great concern and compassion that we observe the plight of more than 70 million people around the world who have fled their homes seeking relief from violence, war, or religious persecution.

We encourage Church members and friends to respond appropriately and legally, to help create welcoming communities by volunteering their time, talents and friendship to individuals and families who are integrating into our societies.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

30 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are deeply committed to living the two great commandments to love God and love our neighbor. We feel tremendous joy in helping all of God’s children, no matter where they may live in this world.

It is therefore with great concern and compassion that we observe the plight of more than 70 million people around the world who have fled their homes seeking relief from violence, war, or religious persecution.

We encourage Church members and friends to respond appropriately and legally, to help create welcoming communities by volunteering their time, talents and friendship to individuals and families who are integrating into our societies.

Sorry,  made a mistake and need a repost, then you will have something to speak about. 

  

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Sorry,  made a mistake and need a repost, then you will have something to speak about. 

Not sure what you mean. That was the First Presidency statement you were hoping to find and quote.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not sure what you mean. That was the First Presidency statement you were hoping to find and quote.

Since it wasn’t in a quote box or quote, I think PaPa figured you, Hamba, were saying something yourself.

Also forgot the link:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-releases-statement-refugees-2019

Edited December 9, 2019 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Since it wasn’t in a quote box or quote, I think PaPa figured you, Hamba, were saying something yourself.

Also forgot the link:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-releases-statement-refugees-2019

I thought that too... !

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are deeply committed to living the two great commandments to love God and love our neighbor. We feel tremendous joy in helping all of God’s children, no matter where they may live in this world.

It is therefore with great concern and compassion that we observe the plight of more than 70 million people around the world who have fled their homes seeking relief from violence, war, or religious persecution.

We encourage Church members and friends to respond appropriately and legally, to help create welcoming communities by volunteering their time, talents and friendship to individuals and families who are integrating into our societies.

BTW, I have edited my thread, to clear up any errors, that will support what you have said. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not sure what you mean. That was the First Presidency statement you were hoping to find and quote.

Yes, my mistake. But an honest one, I have gone back to correct some errors and make it clearer, I hope. 😏

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Since it wasn’t in a quote box or quote, I think PaPa figured you, Hamba, were saying something yourself.

Also forgot the link:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-releases-statement-refugees-2019

Yes, an error on my part. I have gone back and tried to correct and address some errors about each thread. Anyway, no more late night posting for me. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not sure what you mean. That was the First Presidency statement you were hoping to find and quote.

Trying to have the entire message about members assisting refugees, so it does not appear I am not addressing the entire thing. Also, to have context of where the term “legal”, or “legally” is used. I tried finding the entire message or story, that I found in an article on LDS.net, or SLtrib, if memory serves, but can’t seem to locate it again. 

[pogi]

19 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

3. When I addressed the serious homeless issues in a few cities and States, and the outbreak, and reintroduction of once eradicated diseases in the U.S. A posted just seemed to just point out I listed one “disease”, incorrectly, one eradicated “Worldwide”. 

Well, that isn't really an accurate depiction of what went down from my POV.

Here is what you said:

Quote

but taking the unvaccinated, whom we know, due to conditions in large “homeless communities”, that carry many diseases such as Typhous, the bubonic plaque, small pox, diseases that we once eradicated, it is wrong and wrong headed, especially to those who become sick. What of those who die, just because we feel we have a “moral right” to do so, not by law, but because of our feelings. 

Here was my response:

Quote

 

First, small pox is eradicated WORLD-WIDE.  Unless someone breaks into a government lab and releases a sample into the environment, I don't think we need to worry about immigrants bringing it in to the US.  Second, locally acquired/transmitted bubonic plaugue occurs every year in the US from infected US rodents and their fleas (not from foreign immigrants).  There has not been any documented cases of non-local acquired bubonic plague being transmitted from person to person in the US since 1924.  This sounds like a lot of unreasonable fear mongering. Third, there is no vaccine for these diseases in the US at present so being unvaccinated isn't going to increase the risk for these specific diseases.  Fourth, for vaccine preventable diseases, we have the means to vaccinate immigrants. 

Do you have any comprehension of how many US travelers visit developing countries every year?  Only a tiny fraction of those travelers are fully vaccinated. These travelers are by far and large a greater risk to community health than the comparatively/relatively tiny percentage of immigrants/refugees.  Should we ban all foreign travel to developing countries?  This community health argument is baseless when compared against foreign travel.  I work in travel medicine.

 

Can you please specify which "eradicated" diseases have been reintroduced by refugees or immigrants?  You mentioned typhus, plague, and small pox, but none of those have been reintroduced by refugees.  One is totally eradicated and the other two are locally acquired diseases.   I don't know what "the outbreak" is you are speaking of, but if you are talking about the measles outbreaks going on all over the world right now, again, the greatest threat by far is unvaccinated or under-vaccinated travelers.  I don't know of a single US outbreak that has been started by refugees or illegal immigrants.  Not that it can't happen, but they are a much smaller threat. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by pogi

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Since it wasn’t in a quote box or quote, I think PaPa figured you, Hamba, were saying something yourself.

 

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I thought that too... !

Hmm, not sure how I feel about being mistaken for an edited and polished First Presidency statement ...

Edited December 9, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

30 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I tried finding the entire message or story, that I found in an article on LDS.net, or SLtrib, if memory serves, but can’t seem to locate it again. 

I quoted it for you, and Calm provided the link.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

Well, that isn't really an accurate depiction of what went down from my POV.

Here is what you said:

Here was my response:

 

I think my point was that I felt like I had poked a hornets nest, and felt like I was paying a difficult price. I was not being harsh about your point, just noting what seemed to me an odd day, with a thread that got a lot of stinging responses, and odd ones as well, for the sin of giving honest opinions. I have already admitted I reacted to some comments and replies  poorly, is that not enough? Or is a pound of flesh also required, if so...if you feel wronged, then you have my personal apology. So, please I do not wish to see how deep the rabbit hole goes again. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

But, when it comes to refugees, if they are here illegally, there is no law against, feeding, housing, or clothing the “cold, naked or hungry”.

1. As I noted in the other thread, if a person is genuinely a refugee, international law grants her or him the right to flee across international borders. Consequently, there is no such a thing as an 'illegal' refugee by definition.

2. I agree wholeheartedly with the content of your statement above, and in fact, I've tried to think of a way in which I could serve refugees unlawfully, and I've come up with nothing so far. To the best of my understanding, even when the Church uses private vehicles to transport undocumented missionaries to and from their fields of service, they are not breaking any laws.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I quoted it for you, and Calm provided the link.

Thank you, I fear the point was lost, along with any respect I once had. It would seem I am suffering from a 1,000 self inflicted paper cuts, leading to my painful death. I have received the message (not the mods), no politics, no opinions, no trying to explain what one thinks the remarks for GA’s mean, nor scripture, nor doctrine. With my poor writing, grammar, punctuation, and memory skills, I should know my limits. They lie within an area of this size [] 🤣. 

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I think my point was that I felt like I had poked a hornets nest, and felt like I was paying a difficult price. I was not being harsh about your point, just noting what seemed to me an odd day, with a thread that got a lot of stinging responses, and odd ones as well, for the sin of giving honest opinions. I have already admitted I reacted to some comments and replies  poorly, is that not enough? Or is a pound of flesh also required, if so...if you feel wronged, then you have my personal apology. So, please I do not wish to see how deep the rabbit hole goes again. 

I'm not looking for an apology or anything, but you specified in this OP that "some very interesting and intriguing comments emerged, that maybe need some exploring, or examination".  You then listed 3 very specific comments and mine was one of them, so I thought you wanted to explore or examine it further.  That's why I responded.  Again, I'm not looking for an apology, I thought you were initiating further dialogue. 

I edited my last post after you responded so you may have missed the last paragraph.  If you want to explore this further maybe you could start by answering that question, if not that is fine too.  I am just a little confused because you seem to be apologizing here, but I am not sure if you are apologizing in an attempt to retract what you said about infectious disease in relation to refugees, or if you are apologizing for some other reason and standing by your original comment.  Based on the OP in this thread it seemed as if you were attempting to defend your comments and position, but now I am not sure.  Can you clarify where you stand? 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

1. As I noted in the other thread, if a person is genuinely a refugee, international law grants her or him the right to flee across international borders. Consequently, there is no such a thing as an 'illegal' refugee by definition.

2. I agree wholeheartedly with the content of your statement above, and in fact, I've tried to think of a way in which I could serve refugees unlawfully, and I've come up with nothing so far. To the best of my understanding, even when the Church uses private vehicles to transport undocumented missionaries to and from their fields of service, they are not breaking any laws.

Actually, as I said elsewhere, you can, house, feed, clothe, and help support financially, any refugee by law, unless of course her or she is a felon who is fleeing law-enforcement. You do not need permission, you do not have to be given permission by the Government, nor by the Church. If you wish, you can left them live in your home, you just can’t rent to them, unless your house is zoned for it. Well, you can’t rent any part of your home while also living in it, unless it is zoned for it, even if they are your next door neighbor.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I have received the message (not the mods), no politics, no opinions, no trying to explain what one thinks the remarks for GA’s mean, nor scripture, nor doctrine.

We all have opinions, mate. The whole point of posting them on a 'discussion board' is to generate discussion, no? I think at least three-quarters of you are wrong on almost any topic!

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

If you wish, you can left them live in your home, you just can’t rent to them, unless your house is zoned for it. Well, you can’t rent any part of your home while also living in it, unless it is zoned for it, even if they are your next door neighbor.  

I know nothing about laws in Georgia, but thankfully I have every right to rent out part of my home whilst also living in it. I have two housemates who pay me rent.

[Ahab]

20 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

First Presidency Statement on Refugees

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are deeply committed to living the two great commandments to love God and love our neighbor. We feel tremendous joy in helping all of God’s children, no matter where they may live in this world.

It is therefore with great concern and compassion that we observe the plight of more than 70 million people around the world who have fled their homes seeking relief from violence, war, or religious persecution.

We encourage Church members and friends to respond appropriately and legally, to help create welcoming communities by volunteering their time, talents and friendship to individuals and families who are integrating into our societies.

If I see any refugees I'll give them the opportunity to work for me in exchange for food, clothing, or shelter because I believe I should try to help them and I also believe it is better for them to work for something rather than give them something for free.

I hardly see any where I live and I'm too busy to go out of my way to look for any but that's what I plan to do if I ever see any.  I don't have a lot of money but I can offer some assistance in exchange for services that someone I help should be able to do.

I also donate and have donated money to the fast offering fund and humanitarian aid fund in the Church and am absolutely certain that those in the Church who oversee the distribution of those funds can figure out something good to do with that money.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I know nothing about laws in Georgia, but thankfully I have every right to rent out part of my home whilst also living in it. I have two housemates who pay me rent.

Maybe I should expand, you can’t rent to anyone if you build a second kitchen. A second kitchen requires permits, and rezoning, unless you get a code variance, that can be granted for what is called, “Mother-in-law” suite. 

[Tacenda]

Today at a school I worked at they were collecting cleaning products for refugees. So it's happening folks.

Also, Papa, I wouldn't worry about apologising, you've an opinion and you are allowed.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

20 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We all have opinions, mate. The whole point of posting them on a 'discussion board' is to generate discussion, no? I think at least three-quarters of you are wrong on almost any topic!

Wow, I can’t even make jokes very well. 😢

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'm not looking for an apology or anything, but you specified in this OP that "some very interesting and intriguing comments emerged, that maybe need some exploring, or examination".  You then listed 3 very specific comments and mine was one of them, so I thought you wanted to explore or examine it further.  That's why I responded.  Again, I'm not looking for an apology, I thought you were initiating further dialogue. 

I edited my last post after you responded so you may have missed the last paragraph.  If you want to explore this further maybe you could start by answering that question, if not that is fine too.  I am just a little confused because you seem to be apologizing here, but I am not sure if you are apologizing in an attempt to retract what you said about infectious disease in relation to refugees, or if you are apologizing for some other reason and standing by your original comment.  Based on the OP in this thread it seemed as if you were attempting to defend your comments and position, but now I am not sure.  Can you clarify where you stand? 

OK, can I wash your care for three weeks? 🥰