A clarification thread, to set the record, or misunderstanding straight, concerning the “First Presidency Message”.

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, Ahab said:

If I see any refugees I'll give them the opportunity to work for me in exchange for food, clothing, or shelter because I believe I should try to help them and I also believe it is better for them to work for something rather than give them something for free.

I think you'll find that's not how it works. Refugees are not thrown on the mercy of strangers to fend for themselves, at least not where I live. We have government-funded services that organise basics and then rely on a host of community volunteers who make it all happen. We provide basic accommodation, food, etc. Volunteers help refugees access healthcare and enrol their kids in school and provide transportation to and from appointments as people are taught how to navigate the public transport system. Volunteers also supplement government-funded language training and also help with job training and mentoring, etc. More than anything else, volunteers become friends and a new support network in a strange land -- teaching people how to shop, cook with unfamiliar ingredients, etc., but also sitting down to share meals with them.

You really need to find your local service provider/s and volunteer.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

If I see any refugees I'll give them the opportunity to work for me in exchange for food, clothing, or shelter because I believe I should try to help them and I also believe it is better for them to work for something rather than give them something for free.

I hardly see any where I live and I'm too busy to go out of my way to look for any but that's what I plan to do if I ever see any.  I don't have a lot of money but I can offer some assistance in exchange for services that someone I help should be able to do.

I also donate and have donated money to the fast offering fund and humanitarian aid fund in the Church and am absolutely certain that those in the Church who oversee the distribution of those funds can figure out something good to do with that money.

By all means do this, no one needs to give you permission. You should already be doing this, I have for decades, most days while a Police Officer, I would just give them my lunch money. Often when I came home, asking my wife, “got something I can eat”? She would say, “you gave your money, or your lunch away again, didn’t you”? 

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think you'll find that's not how it works. Refugees are not thrown on the mercy of strangers to fend for themselves, at least not where I live. We have government-funded services that organise basics and then rely on a host of community volunteers who make it all happen. We provide basic accommodation, food, etc. Volunteers help refugees access healthcare and enrol their kids in school and provide transportation to and from appointments as people are taught how to navigate the public transport system. Volunteers also supplement government-funded language training and also help with job training and mentoring, etc. More than anything else, volunteers become friends and a new support network in a strange land -- teaching people how to shop, cook with unfamiliar ingredients, etc., but also sitting down to share meals with them.

You really need to find your local service provider/s and volunteer.

I need to find them?  Sounds like they need to find them.  If they can find something better than what I can offer them then more power to them.  I'll begin when one of them or a family of them contacts me. 

I have plenty of other things to do than to go looking for refugees or for who can help them more than I can.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Ahab

[mnn727]

20 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

First Presidency Statement on Refugees

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are deeply committed to living the two great commandments to love God and love our neighbor. We feel tremendous joy in helping all of God’s children, no matter where they may live in this world.

It is therefore with great concern and compassion that we observe the plight of more than 70 million people around the world who have fled their homes seeking relief from violence, war, or religious persecution.

We encourage Church members and friends to respond appropriately and legally, to help create welcoming communities by volunteering their time, talents and friendship to individuals and families who are integrating into our societies.

 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

34 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We all have opinions, mate. The whole point of posting them on a 'discussion board' is to generate discussion, no? I think at least three-quarters of you are wrong on almost any topic!

I think I am more than 3/4’s wrong, but thanks for giving me the possibility of being right 1/3 of the time. 🙄

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

By all means do this, no one needs to give you permission. You should already be doing this, I have for decades, most days while a Police Officer, I would just give them my lunch money. Often when I came home, asking my wife, “got something I can eat”? She would say, “you gave your money, or your lunch away again, didn’t you”? 

It might have been good for you to have taken extra food with you, since you were likely to run into some of them once in a while, or maybe more often.  Something that didn't spoil and would be good for a while.  But instead of a handout it would have been better for you to let them do something for you or someone le in the community, that way there is an actual exchange of products and/or services and they would feel more self sufficient and empowered to be able to provide for themselves.  Charity is good but rather than continuing to give people fish it is better to teach them how to fish.  We should seek to find what we want rather than have others bring us things with no exchange.

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

OK, can I wash your care for three weeks? 🥰

I’ll tell you what, if you are ever in the SLC area let me buy you lunch and we’ll call it good.

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I have plenty of other things to do than to go looking for refugees or for who can help them more than I can.

'We encourage Church members and friends to respond appropriately and legally, to help create welcoming communities by volunteering their time, talents and friendship to individuals and families who are integrating into our societies'.

But to each his own, of course.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

I’ll tell you what, if you are ever in the SLC area let me buy you lunch and we’ll call it good.

OK, but I have simple tastes, Steak-N-Shake would work for me. 

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

'We encourage Church members and friends to respond appropriately and legally, to help create welcoming communities by volunteering their time, talents and friendship to individuals and families who are integrating into our societies'.

But to each his own, of course.

There are different ways to do that, and the point I was trying to make which you don't seem to have sensed is that we should be helping them find and work for what they need, rather than just giving something to them.  That is what a friend does, in my book.

Some people seem to have this strange idea that they should run around all over the place and just give things to people without showing them or teaching them how they should go out and get what they need for themselves.  Economics, even without money, is about the exchange of goods and services, with each party giving the other party something in exchange for what they offer.  When it is not an exchange, and instead is some kind of gift, the people on the receiving end sometimes get the idea that that is all they need to do, just receive what is given to them, and the people on the giving end sometimes think that is all they need to do, too.  Just give to people who need things while those who receive just receive those things without doing anything in exchange.  It's not supposed to work that way.  And it doesn't work very well that way either.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Ahab

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

And it doesn't work very well that way either.

I'm glad you've figured out a better way to do this than what recognised service providers with literally decades of experience have been foolishly doing without getting the desired results. I hope you'll be contacting your local refugee support service to share your insights! 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I think I am more than 3/4’s wrong, but thanks for giving me the possibility of being right 1/3 of the time. 🙄

I think he meant 3/4s of us posters...

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think he meant 3/4s of us posters...

I don’t remember exactly where papa is from (somewhere down south I think), but it may be more helpful to use “y’all” instead of the plural “you”.

As in “I think at least 3/4 of y’all’s are wrong...”

Edited December 10, 2019 by pogi

[Ahab]

25 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm glad you've figured out a better way to do this than what recognised service providers with literally decades of experience have been foolishly doing without getting the desired results. I hope you'll be contacting your local refugee support service to share your insights! 

No, I'd rather they learn the hard way through their own experiences.  Clearly what people have been doing has not been working very well and sometime soon, I hope, they will learn in the same way that I have learned and then we will all agree with each other.

[Ahab]

19 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don’t remember exactly where papa is from (somewhere down south I think), but it may be more helpful to use “y’all” instead of the plural “you”.

As in “I think at least 3/4 of y’all’s are wrong...”

the s is redundant.  The correct way to say it is "3/4 of y'all are wrong".

As someone who was raised in Texas we speak the same language.

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don’t remember exactly where papa is from (somewhere down south I think), but it may be more helpful to use “y’all” instead of the plural “you”.

As in “I think at least 3/4 of y’all’s are wrong...”

Atlanta, Georgia iirc

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

the s is redundant. 

I know, but anyone using any iteration of y’all isn’t really concerned about being grammatically correct, are they?  You are basically changing one grammatically wrong sentence into another grammatically wrong sentence.

It is common in some areas to use the s and say things like “y’alls are crazy!”. 

 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Clearly what people have been doing has not been working very well

Why do you think the volunteer refugee programs to get them situated and adjusted to living in the States aren't working well?

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don’t remember exactly where papa is from (somewhere down south I think), but it may be more helpful to use “y’all” instead of the plural “you”.

As in “I think at least 3/4 of y’all’s are wrong...”

We should revert to using "thou" for singular and "ye/you" for plural.  Or go to ""yous(e)" which is common even if not usually seen in writing.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Calm

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think he meant 3/4s of us posters...

OK, to quote Lilly Tomlin, and the “Telephone Lady”, “Nevermind”. 

[Ahab]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

I know, but anyone using any iteration of y’all isn’t really concerned about being grammatically correct, are they?  You are basically changing one grammatically wrong sentence into another grammatically wrong sentence.

It is common in some areas to use the s and say things like “y’alls are crazy!”. 

 

Hmm, I've never heard that one.  I have heard "y'alls is crazy" though.

I've always thought of it as an intelligent use of the apostrophe, similar to using it for something like "I'd" (I would) or "I'll" (I will).  The "y'all" is shorthand of referring to "you all" (whoever is being referred to).  Like in "why don't y'all come up and see me sometime."

Rednecks can be unusually clever, sometimes.

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

Why do you think the volunteer refugee programs to get them situated and adjusted to living in the States aren't working well?

I should clarify that I think some of those programs are working well for some people, like those with skills to do work that others want done when they can find the others who need that work done, but I think a lot of people aren't helped because the people in the programs don't know enough people who want some specific work done which the refugees know how to do, or it just takes too long and too much money for the refugees to get the kind of formal training and education some "employers" want from their workforce and not enough of the employers are willing to offer OJT (on the job) training programs to get them up to speed.  And too many people on both sides stubbornly cling to the idea that they need to find a job that pays money, or have enough money to pay potential workers, rather than thinking outside of that box to try to get the workers needs met in some other way.

Imagine a refugee with the mentality of The Nehor who refuses to work unless he is paid what he thinks is enough money for the work he is willing to do while some potential employer offers him food, clothing and shelter... but no money, because he doesn't have that much money to spend on one worker.  But the employer could put 10 people to work while providing food, clothing and shelter for all of them, and their families.

You know, I do realize capitalism does work pretty well for those who have plenty of money. The top 1% are living lives of luxury with everything they want as they want it.  And those who are considered "middle-class" are living moderately luxurious lives, monetarily speaking, with all that their money can buy.  It just sucks for people who don't have any or very much money, and it doesn't have to be that way.  Those who do the work are the ones who are actually producing the goods and providing the services that the people with money are offering to trade their money for, so as soon as the basic needs of the workers are met the next step up for the workers should be for them to own some of the goods they are producing, and money really isn't needed for that either since that would be what they are producing with their labor with no exchange of money for their labor.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Ahab

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

I don’t remember exactly where papa is from (somewhere down south I think), but it may be more helpful to use “y’all” instead of the plural “you”.

As in “I think at least 3/4 of y’all’s are wrong...”

Correct usage of "y'all" precludes the necessity to use a plural form, as in "y'all's" 

But I should have let Scott Lloyd make that comment. 

 

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, pogi said:

I know, but anyone using any iteration of y’all isn’t really concerned about being grammatically correct, are they?  You are basically changing one grammatically wrong sentence into another grammatically wrong sentence.

It is common in some areas to use the s and say things like “y’alls are crazy!”. 

 

Yankeeism in action!! 

Right here on our board!

Watch it pal you might actually offend somebody from the south.

They can't help it that English has no second person plural. It's a useful tool sometimes.