Callings given to imperfect human beings

[mfbukowski]

On 8/22/2019 at 4:52 PM, MustardSeed said:

CV75 I referred in the OP to another thread started by Bluebell.  She requested her thread not be derailed to discuss how callings could possibly be inspired if Murdock has been called as a bishop with prior offenses in his record.  

Smac had mentioned Judas being called, in Bluebells thread, and was asked to stop.    I referred to that in this OP but have no problem personally with conversation circling back to sex offenders being put in positions of trust.  It’s all grist for this mill.  IMO. 

Leadership is not infallible 

 Poof. The mill is now blown up.

 

[Meadowchik]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Do we lose our testimonies?  Blame the Church, or worse blame God?  Throw the baby out with the bathwater?

We must be tested in all things, face opposition in all things.  We must stand firm. 

Testimonies of what? I mean, I still have a testimony of goodness, while I cannot seriously continue to consider men as having any God-given authority. For me, it was necessary to separate my testimony of goodness, while separating out authority, in order to still believe in goodness. 

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Testimonies of what? I mean, I still have a testimony of goodness, while I cannot seriously continue to consider men as having any God-given authority. For me, it was necessary to separate my testimony of goodness, while separating out authority, in order to still believe in goodness. 

They are inseparable, as scripture clearly shows.  God himself is both perfectly good and operates from priesthood authority.  They go hand in hand as D&C 121 states.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

They are inseparable, as scripture clearly shows.  God himself is both perfectly good and operates from priesthood authority.  They go hand in hand as D&C 121 states.

According to D&C 121.  Yet even with that, to say that God operates from priesthod sauthority is not the same as claiming that "the 'priesthood' of the Restoration", that of now or then, is God's.

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Testimonies of what? I mean, I still have a testimony of goodness, while I cannot seriously continue to consider men as having any God-given authority. For me, it was necessary to separate my testimony of goodness, while separating out authority, in order to still believe in goodness. 

What is a testimony of goodness?

What has goodness revealed to you?

What if goodness IS God? Do we have more reason to listen to good people than bad people?

Is being good therefore Authority in it self?

Edited August 25, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What is a testimony of goodness?

What has goodness revealed to you?

What if goodness IS God? Do we have more reason to listen to good people than bad people?

Is being good therefore Authority in it self?

Yes, to those questions, although I'm not Meadowchik. But still, there are those in the church that with that authority changed lives, and not for the good.

Leaders need to put that authority you say we have, back in our hands. Members need to think for themselves, you can't tell me we didn't get talks that the leaders are paramount in the authority, maybe it's scaling way back now, since they themselves have seen where things got out of hand. 

 

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What is a testimony of goodness?

What has goodness revealed to you?

What if goodness IS God? Do we have more reason to listen to good people than bad people?

Is being good therefore Authority in it self?

I would describe goodness as kindness and knowledge, but I am open to more descriptions. Goodness, helps me approach nearer to joy. Yes, maybe goodness IS God. That's kinda the way God might still fit into my worldview.

That said, I will not assign Authority to "good" people, just maybe a bit more (little a) authority, maybe, and that's just me recognising my bias. Yet, consciously, I know that seemingly good people can do terrible things and seemingly bad people can say very important things. So, to break it down to my ideal, a person is an authority on their perception, and nothing else.  I would hope to rely more on an idea's merits than on my impression of the person's goodness or badness.

[JLHPROF]

29 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Leaders need to put that authority you say we have, back in our hands. 

Perish the thought.  That would be the worst thing we could have happen.

It would destroy everything we have.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 

Leaders need to put that authority you say we have, back in our hands. Members need to think for themselves

 

You have the authority to live your life any way you see fit. The ramifications of those actions are natural consequences.

The authority of our Church government will always be from the top down, for all eternity. Until Jesus Christ returns to earth the pyramid of authority will have a percent of blemished stones in it.

 

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Perish the thought.  That would be the worst thing we could have happen.

It would destroy everything we have.

That is a bit cynical, no?

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Leaders need to put that authority you say we have, back in our hands. Members need to think for themselves, you can't tell me we didn't get talks that the leaders are paramount in the authority, maybe it's scaling way back now, since they themselves have seen where things got out of hand. 

 

I agree. I think that one of the best signs of Christlike behavior of a person in power is to resist the use of it, and to give it back to the community over which he presides, helping to nurture an environment that truly practices the preachings, from the top down.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

That is a bit cynical, no?

When man decides God's will the results are inevitable.  Having majority rules voting on God's will is even worse.  That's not cynicism, that's reality.

We as humans are terrible at doing what God asks.  Letting us as a group decide what is to be done would be literally catastrophic.  We've already rejected much of God's word through common consent voting.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I agree. I think that one of the best signs of Christlike behavior of a person in power is to resist the use of it, and to give it back to the community over which he presides, helping to nurture an environment that truly practices the preachings, from the top down.

The better way to describe this is as Joseph said - "I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves."

Sadly however 
“There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. 
I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen ."

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Perish the thought.  That would be the worst thing we could have happen.

It would destroy everything we have.

I'll bet the leaders want us to have that power.

Nothing to do with it, but I enjoyed a Stake Conference with Pres. Uchtdorf today. He is one of my favorites. And he gave a wonderful message on using our agency. And he mentioned that our town of Layton needs to open up to people. He said we here in Utah can be a little insular, and he wants us to be more open. Nothing to do with the topic, just wanted to share it. He mentioned being open because he said our new Layton hospital had a sign that said "open", and said maybe we need a big sign like that in front of our church, haha. 

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

When man decides God's will the results are inevitable.  Having majority rules voting on God's will is even worse.  That's not cynicism, that's reality.

We as humans are terrible at doing what God asks.  Letting us as a group decide what is to be done would be literally catastrophic.  We've already rejected much of God's word through common consent voting.

There are alternatives to both, like: don't assume one man can decide, don't try to vote on God's will. If you choose to follow a man, do so with better care and contingencies. If you choose to vote on a common agenda with others, don't pretend it's God's will (and btw churches that vote don't necessarily act like it is God's will) just be open about it being what it is. People can have spirituality in ways that are not authoritarian-led.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The better way to describe this is as Joseph said - "I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves."

Sadly however 
“There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. 
I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen ."

Maybe he was in the wrong? Perhaps more humility might have been in order on his part, and some personal and institutional repentence?

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Maybe he was in the wrong? Perhaps more humility might have been in order on his part, and some personal and institutional repentence?

Aren't half the topics on this board about concepts that members have already flown into pieces like glass about?  I'd say he was being conservative.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Maybe he was in the wrong? Perhaps more humility might have been in order on his part, and some personal and institutional repentence?

No, he was exactly right as usual.

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Aren't half the topics on this board about concepts that members have already flown into pieces like glass about?  I'd say he was being conservative.

Yep.  And the list of revelations he revealed from heaven that are getting rejected seems to grow annually.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'll bet the leaders want us to have that power.

Nothing to do with it, but I enjoyed a Stake Conference with Pres. Uchtdorf today. He is one of my favorites. And he gave a wonderful message on using our agency. And he mentioned that our town of Layton needs to open up to people. He said we here in Utah can be a little insular, and he wants us to be more open. Nothing to do with the topic, just wanted to share it. He mentioned being open because he said our new Layton hospital had a sign that said "open", and said maybe we need a big sign like that in front of our church, haha. 

There's a sign on every chapel that says visitors welcome.  We are constantly encouraged to invite people to Church. 

What statements about more openness usually mean is let's change the Church beliefs and standards so those who don't share them want to be there.

[echelon]

As President Nelson so insistently reminds us, this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  I don’t see God the Father’s name in it which tells me that God the Father is allowing Jesus to make the decisions over church administration.  (Makes me wonder why we pray to Heavenly Father for callings in the Church).

Jesus is intelligent, but not omniscient.  Therefore it is possible he does not know the outcome of callings when as stated in other threads, he ‘allows’ things to happen such as callings to imperfect people be made (or allow the use of the 'Mormon' name but that was already discussed in another thread).  My experience tells me it is uncommon for Jesus to hand pick individuals for callings in the ward, rather I take the inspiration he gives out as his confirmation indicating that he will support the decision of his leaders, seeing no long term ill effects of the call that will rob any individuals of their birthright to eternal salvation.

God the Father, on the other hand I believe is omniscient.  One in whom I can exercise faith that if anything in my life will take away my salvation through no agency of my own, He will intercede and make corrections.  This gives me the faith to trust in His son’s church administration.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, echelon said:

As President Nelson so insistently reminds us, this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  I don’t see God the Father’s name in it which tells me that God the Father is allowing Jesus to make the decisions over church administration.  (Makes me wonder why we pray to Heavenly Father for callings in the Church).

Jesus is intelligent, but not omniscient.  Therefore it is possible he does not know the outcome of callings when as stated in other threads, he ‘allows’ things to happen such as callings to imperfect people be made (or allow the use of the 'Mormon' name but that was already discussed in another thread).  My experience tells me it is uncommon for Jesus to hand pick individuals for callings in the ward, rather I take the inspiration he gives out as his confirmation indicating that he will support the decision of his leaders, seeing no long term ill effects of the call that will rob any individuals of their birthright to eternal salvation.

God the Father, on the other hand I believe is omniscient.  One in whom I can exercise faith that if anything in my life will take away my salvation through no agency of my own, He will intercede and make corrections.  This gives me the faith to trust in His son’s church administration.

Total omniscience is a nonsense concept.  Although omniscience within a finite sphere is possible.

As for your other concept Christ vs the Father - that has led to some heated discussion among some of my acquaintances.  The gospel of the Father vs the gospel of the Son, and the Son's progression to become the Father etc.  Very interesting stuff.

[echelon]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Total omniscience is a nonsense concept.  Although omniscience within a finite sphere is possible.

As for your other concept Christ vs the Father - that has led to some heated discussion among some of my acquaintances.  The gospel of the Father vs the gospel of the Son, and the Son's progression to become the Father etc.  Very interesting stuff.

I agree, I should specify that my belief in His omniscience is as far as my mortal experience goes in the world He designed and created.

Also, one day if I can put my thoughts together more eloquently, I would like to discuss the concept of Christ vs the Father more in it's own post. I feel that people too often judge God the Father of whom we know precious little about with Jesus's own sense of individuality and personal preferences.

[Meadowchik]

12 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Aren't half the topics on this board about concepts that members have already flown into pieces like glass about?  I'd say he was being conservative.

I'm not sure what your point is? I suppose you mean that complaints and criticisms of Joseph Smith are invalid?

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No, he was exactly right as usual.

Yep.  And the list of revelations he revealed from heaven that are getting rejected seems to grow annually.

He was certainly a flawed man, and I think it is pretty reasonable from a spiritual and moral perspective to say that his institution of plural marriage was wrong, and it has caused great problems for the church and individuals in it. 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, echelon said:

I agree, I should specify that my belief in His omniscience is as far as my mortal experience goes in the world He designed and created.

Also, one day if I can put my thoughts together more eloquently, I would like to discuss the concept of Christ vs the Father more in it's own post. I feel that people too often judge God the Father of whom we know precious little about with Jesus's own sense of individuality and personal preferences.

I could not disagree more. They are of one mind unified by love and purpose.

Christ does nothing except what he has seen the father do.

Edited August 26, 2019 by mfbukowski