Garments only worn in the Temple?

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So, someone seeking to know the will of God being willing to accept either answer is not as good as someone deciding that they know the will of God anyways and is not willing to be sure? I prefer President Kimball’s approach myself.

It’s not a binary choice.  Also, the Kimball model has its drawbacks like all the suffering caused for all those years before someone was willing to even question the basic assumptions of the racist practice?  A heavy dose of humility can solve for all that unnecessary suffering.  

I seem to remember an influential person who lived roughly 2 millennia ago who taught a little bit about humility...

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Background checks for leadership positions.

For the temple - stop pretending it is for perfect people - open the temple up to everyone, get rid of the temple interviews, get rid of social pressure to lie about and hide sins - let people "take it to the temple" for everything.  

A place of quiet peaceful meditation, a place to make personal (not scripted) covenants, a place of beauty and rest - where everyone can come as they are, and leave with higher aspirations of what they can become - no secrets - nothing hidden - no one excluded.  That is what I think the temple should be.  

🤔...but then it wouldn't be a temple?

I  love the idea of a place like you describe.  I would be first in line, sign me up.  But it doesn't meet the definition.  Not to mention the large number of scriptures it would violate.

It would be great.  Just not a temple.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

It’s not a binary choice.  Also, the Kimball model has its drawbacks like all the suffering caused for all those years before someone was willing to even question the basic assumptions of the racist practice?  A heavy dose of humility can solve for all that unnecessary suffering.  

I seem to remember an influential person who lived roughly 2 millennia ago who taught a little bit about humility...

How do we know a lack of humility caused the problem though?

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

How do we know a lack of humility caused the problem though?

I think it clearly was an influencing factor.  

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, changed said:

Background checks for leadership positions.

For the temple - stop pretending it is for perfect people - open the temple up to everyone, get rid of the temple interviews, get rid of social pressure to lie about and hide sins - let people "take it to the temple" for everything.  

A place of quiet peaceful meditation, a place to make personal (not scripted) covenants, a place of beauty and rest - where everyone can come as they are, and leave with higher aspirations of what they can become - no secrets - nothing hidden - no one excluded.  That is what I think the temple should be.  

Try the Community of Christ temple. I hope we never follow that example.

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

It’s not a binary choice.  Also, the Kimball model has its drawbacks like all the suffering caused for all those years before someone was willing to even question the basic assumptions of the racist practice?  A heavy dose of humility can solve for all that unnecessary suffering.  

I seem to remember an influential person who lived roughly 2 millennia ago who taught a little bit about humility...

Yeah, and He also refused to preach to some people die to ethnicity saying that was not what his Father wanted. Could have used a dose of humility and questioning that racist practice just cause his Father told Him who to preach to.

Edited May 24, 2019 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I think it clearly was an influencing factor.  

Must be nice being able to read the minds of God and His prophets.

[changed]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

🤔...but then it wouldn't be a temple?

I  love the idea of a place like you describe.  I would be first in line, sign me up.  But it doesn't meet the definition.  Not to mention the large number of scriptures it would violate.

It would be great.  Just not a temple.

so.... you believe temples are just for perfect people? cuz I don't know too many of those...

... requiring people to pay tithes to get in the door vs. ... a house of prayer... My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves....  In any event, seems like in the NT everyone was utilizing the temple, including the money changers.  

Is there anywhere - in the Bible - in the New Testament - where people have to go through an interview process to enter the temple? hmmmm.... didn't think so.

Edited May 24, 2019 by changed

[changed]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Try the Community of Christ temple. 

 or Hindu temple, or Buddhist temple, or Jewish temple... 

[hope_for_things]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, and He also refused to preach to some people die to ethnicity saying that was not what his Father wanted. Could have used a dose of humility and questioning that racist practice just cause his Father Him to.

I have read this statement a few times now and I just can't follow what you're saying.  Can you clarify?  

[hope_for_things]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Must be nice being able to read the minds of God and His prophets.

I have no supernatural powers, just reading their words and making historical observations that seem pretty straight forward to me.  

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I have read this statement a few times now and I just can't follow what you're saying.  Can you clarify?  

Fixed.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I have no supernatural powers, just reading their words and making historical observations that seem pretty straight forward to me.  

The wisdom of men is foolishness unto God.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, changed said:

 or Hindu temple, or Buddhist temple, or Jewish temple... 

So why do you want to change my temple experience when you are spoiled for choice for yours? I do not want covenants removed or letting anyone in.

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, and He also refused to preach to some people die to ethnicity saying that was not what his Father wanted. Could have used a dose of humility and questioning that racist practice just cause his Father told Him who to preach to.

Thanks for the edits, I'm still a little confused, but I think you meant to say "due to ethnicity" rather than "die".  I'm not sure what President Kimball's father wanted, but I wonder if you're taking about God/Heavenly Father.  Sorry, I was really just not understanding what you're trying to say. 

I'm not familiar with Kimball refusing to preach to people based on some kind of ethnic prejudice.  If you have some more background and can share here?  Also, are you talking about before 1978, because I'm assuming after 1978 that all ethnicities were opened up to preaching, however, maybe there are some we still refuse to preach too?  

Overall, I'm trying to infer what your point is and my best guess is that you believe that God condoned and was the source of the racist priesthood and temple practices and that God removed them in 1978.  I don't agree, and the church's own essay complicates your interpretation quite a bit.  But perhaps you don't believe the essay is inspired by God, which is surely your prerogative.   

[hope_for_things]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The wisdom of men is foolishness unto God.

Very true.  All these men leading the church and all of us commentators can be quite foolish when compared to the divine.  

[alter idem]

20 hours ago, changed said:

 

She moved to a different state, and he moved out of the country for a bit.

So she did not tell the police.   Church leaders who find out about crimes like pedophilia are required to report to police, so I'd assume church leaders either did not follow protocol or were not aware of his criminal behavior.  Or this happened long enough ago that it was before this requirement.  If that is the case, then yes, these things happened sometimes and not just among our church--it was a societal problem that some crimes went unreported and hidden in the past.

[alter idem]

20 hours ago, changed said:

Background checks for leadership positions.

For the temple - stop pretending it is for perfect people - open the temple up to everyone, get rid of the temple interviews, get rid of social pressure to lie about and hide sins - let people "take it to the temple" for everything.  

A place of quiet peaceful meditation, a place to make personal (not scripted) covenants, a place of beauty and rest - where everyone can come as they are, and leave with higher aspirations of what they can become - no secrets - nothing hidden - no one excluded.  That is what I think the temple should be.  

I'm not sure you have a correct impression of the purpose of a temple and why they are built;  it's not for 'perfect' people--no one is perfect, but it is for members who feel they are trying to live worthily and keep the commandments. And who am I hiding sins from when God sees and knows all?  I myself know that I fall short of the standard I'd like to live up to, but I repent when I know I've done something wrong and so, I feel that I can attend the temple because I'm trying to follow Christ in my daily life. 

If the temple is just a beautiful building that would be nice to go sit, then why build it when there are lots of beautiful buildings to sit and meditate peacefully in.  If the temple is not a place dedicated to God, where we make sacred covenants--which God scripted, and where the telestial  is kept at bay (hopefully), then why bother building it and why bother going to that specific place?  And, if it was opened up to all, it would change the spiritual element--it would be just like our chapels, so there'd be no reason to go there specifically to commune with God--we could get the same experience in a Chapel.

The temple is supposed to be different from any other nice, beautiful building--there are tons of those on earth.  A temple has a different purpose and is specifically set apart as a sacred place where the spirit of God can hopefully dwell unencumbered--that aspect of it is what sets it apart, and that won't happen without the temple worthiness requirement.

[SouthernMo]

45 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I'm not sure you have a correct impression of the purpose of a temple and why they are built;  it's not for 'perfect' people--no one is perfect, but it is for members who feel they are trying to live worthily and keep the commandments. And who am I hiding sins from when God sees and knows all?  I myself know that I fall short of the standard I'd like to live up to, but I repent when I know I've done something wrong and so, I feel that I can attend the temple because I'm trying to follow Christ in my daily life. 

If the temple is just a beautiful building that would be nice to go sit, then why build it when there are lots of beautiful buildings to sit and meditate peacefully in.  If the temple is not a place dedicated to God, where we make sacred covenants--which God scripted, and where the telestial  is kept at bay (hopefully), then why bother building it and why bother going to that specific place?  And, if it was opened up to all, it would change the spiritual element--it would be just like our chapels, so there'd be no reason to go there specifically to commune with God--we could get the same experience in a Chapel.

The temple is supposed to be different from any other nice, beautiful building--there are tons of those on earth.  A temple has a different purpose and is specifically set apart as a sacred place where the spirit of God can hopefully dwell unencumbered--that aspect of it is what sets it apart, and that won't happen without the temple worthiness requirement.

All good points.  We are taught that our bodies are temples. Not like temples, but that they are temples.

I’m learning that I can have spiritual experiences and shut out Satan wherever I am.  I don’t need polished white granite to have special commune with God.

[alter idem]

7 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

All good points.  We are taught that our bodies are temples. Not like temples, but that they are temples.

I’m learning that I can have spiritual experiences and shut out Satan wherever I am.  I don’t need polished white granite to have special commune with God.

I agree, we can and should have spiritual experiences, shut Satan out where ever we are;  we shouldn't think we can only have that experience in a temple.  We are encouraged to try to make our homes like temples, where Satan has little influence and we try to invite the spirit into our Chapels, but it's not as easy, since all are welcome in our Chapels and we can't control our family members and the influence they bring into our homes sometimes.

It's nice to have the spirit unrestrained in the temple, but the true purpose of a temple is to perform proxy work for those who are dead, something that can't be done in other buildings, no matter how beautiful and peaceful they may be.

[SouthernMo]

3 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I agree, we can and should have spiritual experiences, shut Satan out where ever we are;  we shouldn't think we can only have that experience in a temple.  We are encouraged to try to make our homes like temples, where Satan has little influence and we try to invite the spirit into our Chapels, but it's not as easy, since all are welcome in our Chapels and we can't control our family members and the influence they bring into our homes sometimes.

It's nice to have the spirit unrestrained in the temple, but the true purpose of a temple is to perform proxy work for those who are dead, something that can't be done in other buildings, no matter how beautiful and peaceful they may be.

You just gave me an idea for a new topic...

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for the edits, I'm still a little confused, but I think you meant to say "due to ethnicity" rather than "die".  I'm not sure what President Kimball's father wanted, but I wonder if you're taking about God/Heavenly Father.  Sorry, I was really just not understanding what you're trying to say. 

I'm not familiar with Kimball refusing to preach to people based on some kind of ethnic prejudice.  If you have some more background and can share here?  Also, are you talking about before 1978, because I'm assuming after 1978 that all ethnicities were opened up to preaching, however, maybe there are some we still refuse to preach too?  

Overall, I'm trying to infer what your point is and my best guess is that you believe that God condoned and was the source of the racist priesthood and temple practices and that God removed them in 1978.  I don't agree, and the church's own essay complicates your interpretation quite a bit.  But perhaps you don't believe the essay is inspired by God, which is surely your prerogative.   

No, I was pointing out that Jesus was commanded to restrict himself as to who he taught in mortality. So it is a bit silly to claim that Jesus obviously disapproves of something when he practiced it himself.

[changed]

On 5/23/2019 at 6:38 PM, mnn727 said:

I know I am only hearing a bit of the story, but it appears that you believe the Church was to do something but she didn't do what actually needed to be done. The Church has no police department, it has no jails, it has no legal ability to do anything except dis-fellowship or ex-communicate and even if either of those are done, they can only tell those parties that need to know (Bishop, Stake President).

How about not calling him to leadership positions?  How about being led by the spirit, and leaders not taking young children astray?

[Kenngo1969]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The wisdom of men is foolishness unto God.

And vice-versa.

[Ragerunner]

On 5/22/2019 at 9:16 AM, bluebell said:

You do if you buy them at Deseret Book. They always ask to see it. I’m not sure how it works online. 

You don’t need an active recommend to purchase garments for yourself. Of course you do need to be endowed.