bluebell Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, changed said: Abuse is much worse when it is done by the hands of those who are supposedly "called by God". Being raped by a stranger, vs. being being raped - and videotaped - and the video posted online - by someone in the bishopric wearing garments who was supposed to be a protector. ... then watching everyone in the congregation raise their hands to support this rapist pedophile in their leadership position... and covenant to support their leaders as part of the TR interview? Years and years and years - child after child after child - all videotaped... he is in jail now for the rest of his life without parole, but it was not the church who put him there. The church supported him. When his first temple marriage went south, the church condemned his first wife rather than him. He was sealed to a second unsuspecting victim - did the church warn her? stop the wedding? No - they sealed another victim to him, and gave him leadership callings. The church knew - knew what ended his first marriage, he went to addiction recovery groups - the church knew, and enabled him, and gave him more than a temple recommend and garments to wear, they put him in leadership positions, with children, within the bishopric. In another situation - after our bishop issues a TR to another person who should NOT have had a TR (the TR was revoked after I confronted them both) - the bishop is not a judge, does not discipline - but instead enables abuse to continue and sanctifies it - calls it holy. This is worse than abuse. The church knew that the person in the bishopric was raping and videoing people??
Tacenda Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, changed said: Abuse is much worse when it is done by the hands of those who are supposedly "called by God". Being raped by a stranger, vs. being being raped - and videotaped - and the video posted online - by someone in the bishopric wearing garments who was supposed to be a protector. ... then watching everyone in the congregation raise their hands to support this rapist pedophile in their leadership position... and covenant to support their leaders as part of the TR interview? Years and years and years - child after child after child - all videotaped... he is in jail now for the rest of his life without parole, but it was not the church who put him there. The church supported him. When his first temple marriage went south, the church condemned his first wife rather than him. He was sealed to a second unsuspecting victim - did the church warn her? stop the wedding? No - they sealed another victim to him, and gave him leadership callings. The church knew - knew what ended his first marriage, he went to addiction recovery groups - the church knew, and enabled him, and gave him more than a temple recommend and garments to wear, they put him in leadership positions, with children, within the bishopric. In another situation - after our bishop issues a TR to another person who should NOT have had a TR (the TR was revoked after I confronted them both) - the bishop is not a judge, does not discipline - but instead enables abuse to continue and sanctifies it - calls it holy. This is worse than abuse. Yes, and this horrendous situation happens over and over in wards. As if children and youth are expendable. The podcast I shared about the two women who showed up at their ward's F&T mtg is another example of this. A long time ago my dad started telling me that some leaders in the church are sex abusers. He said this during conference while watching. This I thought was because he was angry and in an atheist mode and making it up, during my faithful days. The only incident I knew my dad was aware of was when he served in scouting with another scout leader in his ward that abused the boys and then was caught. But now I'm wondering if he never told me about other incidences. Edited May 23, 2019 by Tacenda
hope_for_things Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 33 minutes ago, bluebell said: The bolded is only true if God agrees with your perspective. If He doesn't, then doing so would cause more harm than good. Innovation is useless and could even be harmful if God doesn't condone it. God's perspective is the only one that matters. Why should anyone assume that God even condones the current traditions on worthiness and purity in the church? Is there a way we can even know God's perspective?
changed Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Yes, and this horrendous situation happens over and over in wards. As if children and youth are expendable. The podcast I shared about the two women who showed up at their ward's F&T mtg is another example of this. A long time ago my dad started telling me that some leaders in the church are sex abusers. He said this during conference while watching. This I thought was because he was angry and in an atheist mode and making it up, during my faithful days. The only incident I knew my dad was aware of was when he served in scouting with another scout leader in his ward that abused the boys and then was caught. But now I'm wondering if he never told me about other incidences. Sam Young has hundreds of stories posted, with more coming through each day. All other organizations implement things like background checks and two-deep leadership with kids. One-on-one interviews, of old "holy" men in g's pulling little children into offices behind closed doors is still a thing and needs to be stopped. Background checks need to be done for everyone in any leadership position in the church. Pretending callings come from god and priesthood brothers are protectors is false. Women are the protectors - women are the ones taking care of kids, women are the single moms providing and protecting - ask anyone from social services. Edited May 23, 2019 by changed
bluebell Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Why should anyone assume that God even condones the current traditions on worthiness and purity in the church? Is there a way we can even know God's perspective? I don't think anyone should assume anything, and we can know God's perspective, when He chooses to share it, through fasting, prayer, scripture study, and obedience to His commandments.
changed Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Why should anyone assume that God even condones the current traditions on worthiness and purity in the church? Is there a way we can even know God's perspective? Pray to know for yourself. I think one of the tests in this life is taking ownership of your agency. Is the point about seeing who makes the best "followers" or who makes the best leaders? The best leaders think for themselves, pray for themselves, and act for themselves rather than relying on any arms of flesh. People like Judas are called as apostles to force the rest of us to think for ourselves. Those who follow brethren like Judas and doubting Thomas - push children away from Jesus (like the LGBT kids) etc. etc. ?? and think they are being good and holy to support leaders no matter what??? My stake president told me he would support church leaders no matter what, even if they asked him to do something really hard, or something he did not agree with - told me about supporting the priesthood ban even though he did not agree with it etc. - and I yelled at him - told him Oh no you don't!! You need to pray for yourself - you need to get your own confirmation - you need to follow your own conscience - that it was evil to follow people like Judas. We are supposed to love and follow God. Follow the light of Christ which is our own conscience. That is who we worship, that is who we follow - NOT any arms of flesh. 1
Popular Post ksfisher Posted May 23, 2019 Popular Post Posted May 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, changed said: One-on-one interviews, of old "holy" men in g's pulling little children into offices behind closed doors is still a thing and needs to be stopped. This is pretty insulting to those who are called to serve in or have served in bishoprics, as well as to those who hold the wearing of the temple garment as a sacred privilege. 7 minutes ago, changed said: Pretending callings come from god and priesthood brothers are protectors is false. Members of the church do believe that callings come from God. Callings, however, are not issued to perfect people. 7 minutes ago, changed said: Women are the protectors - women are the ones taking care of kids, women are the single moms providing and protecting - ask anyone from social services. Insulting to those who take their responsibilities as fathers seriously. 10
changed Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 23 minutes ago, bluebell said: The church knew that the person in the bishopric was raping and videoing people?? His first wife knew he was a pedophile - that is why they were divorced - why his first temple marriage went south. She wrote and told the church why she needed the sealing canceled. It actually started when he was young, he attacked other little kids, ripped cloths off of neighborhood kids when he was still a kid, attacked friends of his siblings etc. etc. and nothing was done through his entire life. The extent of church involvement was to "forgive him" 70 times 70, and put him into the church's addiction recovery group. My sister-in-law was abused by her brother - same thing - the brother was not removed from the home, the abuse continued year after year after year, while the church pretended they had taken care of it through the un-trained "addiction recovery" programs that do nothing but enable and allow abusers to feel good about themselves. There are no support groups for victims. There are only support groups that enable abuse in the church.
changed Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, ksfisher said: This is pretty insulting to those who are called to serve in or have served in bishoprics, as well as to those who hold the wearing of the temple garment as a sacred privilege. Members of the church do believe that callings come from God. Callings, however, are not issued to perfect people. Insulting to those who take their responsibilities as fathers seriously. If you are not interested in stopping abuse, then you support it. I suppose Judas was called by God - seems like that is a test to me. Jesus was not killed by atheists, he was killed by organized religious people - killed by his own apostles. So what do you do with that? I do not mean to say all fathers are evil - but there are quite a few more single moms than dads, and the vast majority of abuse is perpetrated by men, not women. Women are the current "protectors" in society, not men.
The Nehor Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Why should anyone assume that God even condones the current traditions on worthiness and purity in the church? Is there a way we can even know God's perspective? If only God has given us some method of communicating with Him directly. Alas, must have been an oversight. 1
The Nehor Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Photos or I'm calling shenanigans. I know there are some loonies in the Church, but I highly doubt any of them are also acrobats or contortionists. It is not hard. You pull the old top over your head inside out but leave it on one arm. Then you put the inside out new garment on the other arm. Remove the first and pull the new one over your head and other arm. For the bottom you just leave it on one leg and put the new one on the other.
hope_for_things Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don't think anyone should assume anything, and we can know God's perspective, when He chooses to share it, through fasting, prayer, scripture study, and obedience to His commandments. I feel fairly confident from my own study and wrestling with God on this topic that the predominant focus on purity and commandment keeping with exactness emphasis, that a large % of members and leaders in the church focus on, doesn't bear good fruit. I believe the spirit is trying to point us in a different direction collectively, and while I'm seeing some of this change with emphasis on grace from some leaders, I don't think its shifting enough to get us out of unhealthy emphasis by other leaders. I think God is sharing it now and will continue to share this message as long as people are open to hearing it, but I think many leaders are out of tune and not hearing the message of God on this topic. So instead of being humble to the spirit, they are entrenched in fear messaging that produces the bad fruit we're harvesting.
The Nehor Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, changed said: If you are not interested in stopping abuse, then you support it. I suppose Judas was called by God - seems like that is a test to me. Jesus was not killed by atheists, he was killed by organized religious people - killed by his own apostles. So what do you do with that? I do not mean to say all fathers are evil - but there are quite a few more single moms than dads, and the vast majority of abuse is perpetrated by men, not women. Women are the current "protectors" in society, not men. Do you have to turn every thread into histrionics about abuse? 2
hope_for_things Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 15 minutes ago, changed said: Pray to know for yourself. I think one of the tests in this life is taking ownership of your agency. Is the point about seeing who makes the best "followers" or who makes the best leaders? The best leaders think for themselves, pray for themselves, and act for themselves rather than relying on any arms of flesh. People like Judas are called as apostles to force the rest of us to think for ourselves. Those who follow brethren like Judas and doubting Thomas - push children away from Jesus (like the LGBT kids) etc. etc. ?? and think they are being good and holy to support leaders no matter what??? My stake president told me he would support church leaders no matter what, even if they asked him to do something really hard, or something he did not agree with - told me about supporting the priesthood ban even though he did not agree with it etc. - and I yelled at him - told him Oh no you don't!! You need to pray for yourself - you need to get your own confirmation - you need to follow your own conscience - that it was evil to follow people like Judas. We are supposed to love and follow God. Follow the light of Christ which is our own conscience. That is who we worship, that is who we follow - NOT any arms of flesh. Bravo, I totally agree! Your stake president and many others like him, think that supporting leaders is a virtue in and of itself. They haven't learned from the lessons of history. This is essentially a Nuremberg defense and it is morally bankrupt. 2
ksfisher Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, changed said: If you are not interested in stopping abuse, then you support it. Are you accusing me of supporting abuse? Or just everyone who are ever served in a bishopric of perpetrating it. 5 hours ago, changed said: I suppose Judas was called by God Judas was called by the Savior to be one of His apostles. Judas could have chose to be faithful, but unfortunately did not. All of us can learn a lesson from his life. 5 hours ago, changed said: there are quite a few more single moms than dads There are, I was raised by a single mother. 5 hours ago, changed said: the vast majority of abuse is perpetrated by men, not women. Women are the current "protectors" in society, not men. Unfortunately this is true. But it does not invalidate the great work done by those who are exemplary fathers. Edited May 23, 2019 by ksfisher 3
hope_for_things Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: If only God has given us some method of communicating with Him directly. Alas, must have been an oversight. Yes, and the answers you get are individual and I think always only an approximation towards the divine will. Remember Isaiah 55:8-9. We can never fully understand and know, we are always seeing through a glass darkly. Our job is to wrestle with the core principles that we understand to be fruit bearing and life giving for humanity. Love, goodness, service, balance, forgiveness, reciprocity, inclusion, tolerance, listening, etc. 1
changed Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Bravo, I totally agree! Your stake president and many others like him, think that supporting leaders is a virtue in and of itself. They haven't learned from the lessons of history. This is essentially a Nuremberg defense and it is morally bankrupt. It is strange - Mormons all freely admit that leaders are fallible - and yet - in the same breath - also commit to follow them off a cliff if asked. With the acknowledgment that leaders are not perfect should also come the admonition and room for allowing everyone to embrace their own agency - to follow their own conscience above that of any supposed "leader". I turned in my TR and my g's due to these two questions: 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? To me, a loving God does not leave the majority of the world through the majority of time without apostles or leadership for a reason. The 99.9999% of the population who has grown up and died without apostles and prophets in their lives were given those environments because perhaps... just perhaps... God thinks it is better to live without all of that. ... just a very few "apostles" scattered here and there to serve as an example of why more are not sent to earth... that is how I see it now. It leaves everyone with the freedom to follow their own agency above all else, remove the middle-man, encourage everyone to go directly to their God themselves. No book. No middleman. We are all given a conscience - the light of Christ - and that is the best guide for all of us.
ksfisher Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I feel fairly confident from my own study and wrestling with God on this topic that the predominant focus on purity and commandment keeping with exactness emphasis, that a large % of members and leaders in the church focus on, doesn't bear good fruit. I believe the spirit is trying to point us in a different direction collectively, and while I'm seeing some of this change with emphasis on grace from some leaders, I don't think its shifting enough to get us out of unhealthy emphasis by other leaders. I think God is sharing it now and will continue to share this message as long as people are open to hearing it, but I think many leaders are out of tune and not hearing the message of God on this topic. So instead of being humble to the spirit, they are entrenched in fear messaging that produces the bad fruit we're harvesting. So you are saying that you are in tune with God, but those whom He has chosen to be his prophets and apostles are not.
changed Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Are you accusing me of supporting abuse? Or just everyone who are ever served in a bishopric of perpetrating it. Judas was call by the Savior to be one of His apostles. Judas could have chose to be faithful, but unfortunately did not. All of us can learn a lesson from his life. There are, I was raised by a single mother. Unfortunately this is true. But it does not invalidate the great work done by those who are exemplary fathers. Knowing there is a dangerous situation and not doing anything about it - being a bystander - yes, helps perpetuate abuse. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect .... there are a lot of bystanders in the church. Yes - there are many lessons from Judas, one of which is - Don't trust, rely on, or put your faith in any arms of flesh, even if they are an apostle. There are so many single moms out there - some women stay in abusive situations, others are strong enough to leave. It would be wonderful if the church was more supportive of divorce. There are exemplary parents, and those who are not so great ...I am not attacking any exemplary parents - I am suggesting abuse needs to be dealt with, meaning do not call pedophiles into leadership positions, do background checks, have two adults in a room, put windows in all doors, teach kids (and adults) they should NOT follow everything someone in a leadership positions states, and instead encourage everyone to think and act for themselves. ... not "follow the prophet" - how about a new verse "Don't follow Jonah, don't follow Jonah, don' follow Jonah, he ran away...." Why not encourage people to think for themselves?
changed Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, ksfisher said: So you are saying that you are in tune with God, but those whom He has chosen to be his prophets and apostles are not. Not directed to me - but - I am saying there is no borrowed light, there is no borrowed testimony. No one is perfect all the time - listen and learn from many good resources - choose more than one resource (plagiarism vs. research - responsible research uses more than one reference). Then, after taking all the studied information - experiences - prayer etc. into account, make the best personal choice one is able for the circumstances that one finds themselves in. Also, allow others the same freedom of conscience. If anyone is interested in missionary work - in trying to talk anyone into anything - the only thing I will talk anyone into, is studying everything out for themselves from multiple resources - multiple religious groups and scriptures - and then following their own conscience while allowing all others to do the same. Find that beautiful, personal relationship with love and light - God islove, God is light - be kind, work hard, be honest, be self-reliant, seek learning and wisdom, seek the Spirit - pray, read, explore. Do not imprison yourself within the beliefs of others, everyone has to find their own inner light, their own testimony. Edited May 23, 2019 by changed
SouthernMo Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 39 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Members of the church do believe that callings come from God. Not to nit pick, but be careful when you speak for all members of any organization. There may be more heterogeneity of thought than you think. 1
SouthernMo Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 34 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It is not hard. You pull the old top over your head inside out but leave it on one arm. Then you put the inside out new garment on the other arm. Remove the first and pull the new one over your head and other arm. For the bottom you just leave it on one leg and put the new one on the other. Then you put your right hand in and you shake it all about... 1
ksfisher Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Not to nit pick, but be careful when you speak for all members of any organization. There may be more heterogeneity of thought than you think. I stated it the way I did on purpose. I realize that not all are believing.
changed Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Do you have to turn every thread into histrionics about abuse? White garments, "holy" temples, people saying they are worthy and pure and clean - rather than facing our imperfections, being open and honest about where improvements can be made. Sorry - abuse is the capstone of where the "pretend to be worthy, pure, clean, and protected" while staying silent - and even pressing charges against - anyone who wants to stand up, shout out, and take care of problem areas... Jesus threw people out of the temple -perhaps the biggest thing that made him angry, and makes me angry too - people in the temple who should not be there. Pretending everything is white and clean and perfect when it is not. Edited May 23, 2019 by changed
SouthernMo Posted May 23, 2019 Posted May 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I stated it the way I did on purpose. I realize that not all are believing. I’m confused. Are you saying that believing Mormons are only believing if they accept that callings come from God? Or, did you omit the word “some” or “many” before the word Mormons intentionally, but mean that only a subset of them do [believe callings come from God]? As in: Americans hate cheese - meaning some do, but not all.
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