The Cross

[MustardSeed]

Just now, RevTestament said:

How about anyone? I do and certainly will kneel before Yeshua and the Father.

No people, just Diety.

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

How about anyone? I do and certainly will kneel before Yeshua and the Father.

I once got very excited at a concert though.  I’m ashamed to admit, as one who is not impressed  by star power, that I had a reaction to seeing once celeb who buckled my knees.  I didn’t kneel but almost fell down.  I corrected myself and laughed it off

Edited April 20, 2019 by MustardSeed

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,

While men remain, as usual, his friend. 😎

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

Surrounded by the twelve tribes no less.

Wow. Didn't put that together!

Not the zodiac?

Edited April 20, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

This reminds me of a story.  Anecdotal,of course, and off topic but I started the thread and give myself permission to digress lol.., 

15 years ago or so two young men in suits knocked on my door and tried to sell me animated Book of Mormon videos.  I turned them down.  Their replay: “Don’t you want the spirit in your home?”

im sure you can guess my answer to that.  

 

I’m guessing it would have been much the same as mine........ 😬

Still wondering if you feel our not using the cross like other Christians (whatever the situation and reason) makes LDS less Christian, but no worries if you don’t wish to answer.

Personally, I think it is a non-issue because we clearly do revere the cross but in our own way. Maybe not ostensibly, but still in our most intimate and holy covenants.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[MustardSeed]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m guessing it would have been much the same as mine........ 😬

Still wondering if you feel our not using the cross like other Christian (whatever the situation and reason) makes LDS less Christian, but no worries if you don’t wish to answer.

Personally, I think it is a non-issue because we clearly do revere the cross but in our own way. Maybe not ostensibly, but still in our most intimate and holy covenants.

I don’t “think” I ever did think that not using the cross makes us less Christian? 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t “think” I ever did think that not using the cross makes us less Christian? 

Thanks. There is much I misunderstood in your OP, then. 

Here’s a prominent Latter-day Saint who has cross envy. https://religionnews.com/2014/03/05/mormons-lent-cross-jesus/

I kinda like the incense, processions, fancy robes, and bells. We should think about those too. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Surrounded by the twelve tribes no less.

As it turns out the tribes supposedly correspond to the zodiac, due to their positions they had camping during the 40 years in the desert.

https://images.app.goo.gl/7jEWbbwZ83An6KyT9

[MustardSeed]

My fault I’m sure.  I’m not as careful 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks. There is much I misunderstood in your OP, then. 

My fault.  I’m not as careful expressing myself here as most are.  I just type as I talk. 

[Maidservant]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

While men remain, as usual, his friend. 😎

Heh ;).

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Wow. Didn't put that together!

Not the zodiac?

Yea.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As it turns out the tribes supposedly correspond to the zodiac, due to their positions they had camping during the 40 years in the desert.

https://images.app.goo.gl/7jEWbbwZ83An6KyT9

Also there are 12 blessings in the OT that give characteristics.

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Thought I might add a little something to this discussion.

This seal says "Belongs to Hezekiah, son of Ahaz, King of Judea." Note the Egyptian symbol of life on the right. Those archaeologists who still say there was no Davidic kingdom, are running up against new finds like this, which pinpoint the probable palace of David, and support the historical narrative of the Bible. Anyway the tet or cross symbol was the Egyptian sign of life or essentially their resurrection symbol. One could certainly call it a pagan symbol, but it was adopted in eastern Christianity as well. The point is that its a very ancient symbol predating the advent of Yeshua, and was used by certain elements of Judean society as well. 

To extend what Teddyaware said, the symbol brings to mind the brazen serpent episode of Moses, and the evil and torture Yeshua was made to endure. Shall we look upon it? The Israelites had to to be saved from the fiery serpents. There is nothing inherently evil in a symbol, but I will not kneel before it or pray before it, which is why I think they do not appear in our ward buildings. 
 

Good heavens, there's a desert smack dab in the middle of that too! or what?

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Heh ;).

Yea.

Also there are 12 blessings in the OT that give characteristics.

Good heavens, there's a desert smack dab in the middle of that too! or what?

Oo, ooo, I know!!

""From ca. the 8th century BC, the winged solar disk appears on Hebrew seals connected to the royal house of the Kingdom of Judah. ""

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winged_sun

Edited April 20, 2019 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints places more symbolic importance and salvative efficacy on the symbolism of Christ’s crucifixion than does any other Christian church.

This is a rather strong statement. A pleasant CFR please

[Joshua Valentine]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As it turns out the tribes supposedly correspond to the zodiac, due to their positions they had camping during the 40 years in the desert.

https://images.app.goo.gl/7jEWbbwZ83An6KyT9

I thought it was the formation of the camping arrangements was that of a ¨cross¨ (supposedly)? Center Levites? and then in N, E, S, W  extensions?

looked at you pic link, didn´t see what you described

Edited April 20, 2019 by Joshua Valentine

[Joshua Valentine]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In fact, though most members of the Church don’t seem to realize it, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints places more symbolic importance and salvative efficacy on the symbolism of Christ’s crucifixion than does any other Christian church.

This seems to be self-contradictory.
And completely unhelpful to your point.

Also, even if your claim were correct, it would just add even more reason to wonder why the cross is not used as a symbol. It also counters Hinckley´s talk that LDS prefer not to focus on the dead Christ and rather celebrate the current/living Christ.

Please don´t forget that CFR!

Edited April 20, 2019 by Joshua Valentine

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Joshua Valentine said:

I thought it was the formation of the camping arrangements was that of a ¨cross¨ (supposedly)? Center Levites? and then in N, E, S, W  extensions?

looked at you pic link, didn´t see what you described

No the center was the Tabernacle and they camps by tribes in specific locations around the center.

The picture I linked to was a table including the signs of the zodiac with the corresponding tribe of Israel.

No crosses.

https://www.conformingtojesus.com/charts-maps/en/wilderness_camp_of_the_tribes_of_israel.htm

These are not authoritative sites are just a quick first thing to pop up on Google-type search

But they bear out what I have read from better sources.

Edited April 21, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

On 4/18/2019 at 1:45 PM, MustardSeed said:

Well if we are going to compare, I’ll submit the symbolic adornment used by the scouting program, or the young women’s medallion.  Of course we have plenty of symbolism in the garment.  

*For me, the use of a cross has differentiated  me from other Christian faiths.  

If an LDS friend were to wear a cross, I’d think (incorrectly)-“hu.  What’s THAT about?” Why though? Why would I care? I annoy myself with this. 

Im going to read the link above.  Thank you for thoughts.  It interests me, the different points of view and attitudes. 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. The lack of the use of a cross has served as another useful differentiator to create distance from other Christian faiths. It is a distancing mechanism.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

It is a distancing mechanism.

I look on it as more "setting apart" in the same sense that the WoW sets Saints apart and that circumcision (in LDS interpretation generally) set apart the ancient Israelites...though in the case of the nonuse of the Cross, I don't see that as a commandment or counsel from God, but something picked up from culture and then rewritten into symbolic tradition/language.

This may result in distancing by some..maybe most from time to time though less intend it to be intentional I believe because we do try to see others as the family of God (and I think our willingness to invest a lot of effort and resources shows we really feel that way), it can be hard to be 'in the world but not part of it' and recognize others doing the same but with different methods at times.  Much easier when struggling with being different to embrace feeling out of the world, imo.

I don't see scouting symbols as inherently distancing those who identify themselves as scouts from nonscouts in my experience.  Same thing with YW's medallions.  Rather they add a quality to one's identity.  Nonuse of something can take on distancing if we focus on what our nonuse means to others rather than what it means to ourselves (I don't use makeup, I can focus on why I don't or why others do and why I make a different choice, the last can distance as I compare myself to others while the first tells me about me).

Edited April 21, 2019 by Calm

[Maureen]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is a rather strong statement. A pleasant CFR please

I second this.

M.

[Calm]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is a rather strong statement. A pleasant CFR please

I disagree with his claim we place more symbolic importance, etc. than others as use of symbolic language and the meaning of it is so subjective an experience for each individual, but I believe he is referring to specific aspects of the temple ceremony which discussion of probably fall out of the bounds of this board's guidelines.

The whole idea of a competition over who sees the Cross as more symbolically meaningful is inappropriate, imo.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

On 4/18/2019 at 9:23 AM, MiserereNobis said:

This is interesting, because it implies that the symbol of the LDS faith would be something about a living Christ. However, the most obvious symbol of the LDS faith (as far as I can tell) is Moroni. Or maybe a CTR ring. Neither are symbols of a living Christ.

Moroni as a symbol/icon is interpreted as the angel in Rev 14:6-7 bringing the Book of Mormon, but are not used in chapels (they are sometimes used on graves); CTR rings are a recent phenomenon reminding the Saints to "choose the right."  I wouldn't be caught dead wearing one.  💀

Latter-day Saints are thus very plain in their chapels, as well as in their outward appearance to the public.  The Prophet merely wears a business suit, and the only time he wears a white temple suit (not priestly regalia) is at temple dedications during the outside setting of the cornerstone with fresh mortar.  His sacred garb is never worn in public, but only inside the temple, wherein the symbolism becomes very rich indeed.

I do not see that it would matter at all if Latter-day Saints were to adopt (or had long ago adopted) the Cross, the Fish (favored by early Christians and current evangelicals), or other familiar Christian symbols/icons.  That they did not actually says little about the true nature of the religion and what it emphasizes. In fact, LDS homes and visitor centers frequently prominently display copies of the Christus statue (by Thorvaldsen), and some women particularly have collections of angel figurines on display in their homes (my wife did).

My late wife (an endowed Latter-day Saint) constantly wore a beautiful gold necklace with both cross and star of David, and no one ever criticized her for it.  I can't imagine why they would.  Most of these features are just unimportant cultural conventions.

[MiserereNobis]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

His sacred garb is never worn in public, but only inside the temple, wherein the symbolism becomes very rich indeed.

Does he have different temple attire than others because of his office/station?

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Maidservant said:

.........................

Good heavens, there's a desert smack dab in the middle of that too! or what?

Did you mean to say deseret "honey bee"?  More likely it is the Egyptian solar symbol of a winged scarab beetle.  Judah used it as a symbol of the Davidic royal house.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Does he have different temple attire than others because of his office/station?

I assume that it is the same as worn by all other men in the temple, although I have never personally seen the Prophet in priestly regalia.  I do know that he has a special Holy of Holies in the Salt Lake Temple to which he can repose whenever he wishes to be alone with the Lord.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is a rather strong statement. A pleasant CFR please

Arguably he is right but he can't answer you.

There is a portion of the endowment in which the crucifixion is discussed in detail, and which requires a lot of symbolic personal reflection in a very direct way.

[mfbukowski]

57 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Moroni as a symbol/icon is interpreted as the angel in Rev 14:6-7 bringing the Book of Mormon, but are not used in chapels (they are sometimes used on graves); CTR rings are a recent phenomenon reminding the Saints to "choose the right."  I wouldn't be caught dead wearing one.  💀

Latter-day Saints are thus very plain in their chapels, as well as in their outward appearance to the public.  The Prophet merely wears a business suit, and the only time he wears a white temple suit (not priestly regalia) is at temple dedications during the outside setting of the cornerstone with fresh mortar.  His sacred garb is never worn in public, but only inside the temple, wherein the symbolism becomes very rich indeed.

I do not see that it would matter at all if Latter-day Saints were to adopt (or had long ago adopted) the Cross, the Fish (favored by early Christians and current evangelicals), or other familiar Christian symbols/icons.  That they did not actually says little about the true nature of the religion and what it emphasizes. In fact, LDS homes and visitor centers frequently prominently display copies of the Christus statue (by Thorvaldsen), and some women particularly have collections of angel figurines on display in their homes (my wife did).

My late wife (an endowed Latter-day Saint) constantly wore a beautiful gold necklace with both cross and star of David, and no one ever criticized her for it.  I can't imagine why they would.  Most of these features are just unimportant cultural conventions.

I personally might prefer of the anchor.

If you think about it that may be drawn, from top down, with a small circle atop a cross, which of course includes right angles, followed by a compass shape, making the bottom of the anchor.