BYU Police decertified

[bsjkki]

I'm a faithful member but I'm not sad about this. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900057603/byu-police-decertified-by-state-utah.html

"According to the letter, BYU police "failed to comply with the certification criteria … specifically, between 2016 and April 2018, BYUPD failed to conduct an internal investigation into specific allegations of misconduct by a BYUPD officer and failed to report any findings found to be true to Peace Officer Standards and Training" as required by law.

The department also "failed to comply with a subpoena issued by POST" on June 28 into allegations of misconduct by a BYUPD officer," the letter states.

Utah Department of Public Safety spokeswoman Marissa Cote said the department failed to comply with public records requests, even when the state was the one requesting records.

In December, the state sent BYU a letter saying it risked decertification if police didn't allow "all records, personnel and electronic data deemed necessary by DPS to conduct an investigation of BYU" police to be reviewed by the state. The department was also warned BYU in the letter not to "destroy, tamper with, conceal or alter" any records or documents.

The state has granted an extension to BYU until Sept. 1 to find alternative policing if it does not plan to appeal the ruling. Once the decertification is finalized, the BYU Police Department would essentially have the same powers as a private security company. It would not be recognized by the state's Peace Officer Standards and Training or other departments as a law enforcement agency and would not have the power to arrest people."

BYU can not be certified and also not adhere to the  requirements of all the other police departments in Utah. They should not have special status. I've been studying this issue closely and this ruling is not surprising.

Edited February 26, 2019 by bsjkki

[LoudmouthMormon]

Wow.  "You guys suck so bad, you can't call yourselves cops any more."

If there was ever a clear story about how a certain organization's leadership has failed to lead, this would have to rank up there.  I don't think this story really says anything about the folks out doing police work, this is a story about the bosses.

[rockpond]

I don't want the BYU PD to be de-certified but I hope that this along with the lawsuit and the proposed legislation will be enough to convince BYU administration that it's time for them to become compliant with the laws that govern police work in the state.  This has gone on for too long and is gonna give them a black eye.

[bsjkki]

BYU police broke the law when accessing the statewide police database. The police database should not be used by the Honor Code office to investigate students. Flagrant abuse of power. They deserved this.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/crime/2016/06/15/state-investigating-how-byu-police-access-share-other-agencies-sexual-assault-files/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseretnews.com/article/900024782/judge-rules-byu-police-must-release-information-required-by-open-records-law.amp

https://www.ksl.com/article/41802437/sheriff-questions-byu-police-record-searches-amid-state-audit

Edited February 26, 2019 by bsjkki

[MustardSeed]

Abuse of power should always be corrected. 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The police database should not be used by the Honor Code office to investigate students

Is this still going on?

I think people need to be able to expect and trust police to follow standard methods of behaviour.  If BYU Police refuse to function like the state police standards, they have no right to the name and powers.  Police are one of the areas the public have a right to demand very high standards from given they have the power of life and death over us and even in the less dramatic aspects of policing can dramatically affect our lives (even just stopping someone frivolously to give a ticket and intentionally delaying them unnecessarily might lead to them losing a job for being late).

One of the essential qualifications of a police force is being open to investigation by approved agencies as well as the public to a great extent in order to demonstrate they are following appropriate standards of treatment of those they are in authority over.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Calm

[bsjkki]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is this still going on?

No. I’ll try to find the article. This is all part of the fallout. The Trib did an analysis of how often BYU Police accessed the database and it dropped significantly since the allegations came to light during the Madi Barney case. The decertification seems to be because BYU is not providing information for a proper investigation that began in 2016.

Here is an article with a lot of info but not the one I remember. https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=5146920&itype=CMSID

Edited February 26, 2019 by bsjkki

[phaedrus ut]

If you want full police powers you need equal accountability. 

[tulip]

Transparency and accountability.  I can only imagine!

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I'm a faithful member but I'm not sad about this. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900057603/byu-police-decertified-by-state-utah.html

"According to the letter, BYU police "failed to comply with the certification criteria … specifically, between 2016 and April 2018, BYUPD failed to conduct an internal investigation into specific allegations of misconduct by a BYUPD officer and failed to report any findings found to be true to Peace Officer Standards and Training" as required by law.

The department also "failed to comply with a subpoena issued by POST" on June 28 into allegations of misconduct by a BYUPD officer," the letter states.

Utah Department of Public Safety spokeswoman Marissa Cote said the department failed to comply with public records requests, even when the state was the one requesting records.

In December, the state sent BYU a letter saying it risked decertification if police didn't allow "all records, personnel and electronic data deemed necessary by DPS to conduct an investigation of BYU" police to be reviewed by the state. The department was also warned BYU in the letter not to "destroy, tamper with, conceal or alter" any records or documents.

The state has granted an extension to BYU until Sept. 1 to find alternative policing if it does not plan to appeal the ruling. Once the decertification is finalized, the BYU Police Department would essentially have the same powers as a private security company. It would not be recognized by the state's Peace Officer Standards and Training or other departments as a law enforcement agency and would not have the power to arrest people."

BYU can not be certified and also not adhere to the  requirements of all the other police departments in Utah. They should not have special status. I've been studying this issue closely and this ruling is not surprising.

As a rule, institutions will abuse power as long as they believe the benefits outweigh the costs.  In this case in particular, the church and its flagship institution have been testing the limits of their power with respect to the BYU police and they are finding out what the costs are from a state regulatory and PR perspective.  So they will likely retreat to a more tenable position on this particular subject.  

There are many other abuses that need to be brought back in check, one of the biggest on my radar is a lack of financial transparency, and I'm hopeful that in the future we'll get more transparency either through regulation or technology or a combination of the two.  The age of the wizard pulling strings behind the curtain are coming to a close.  

[strappinglad]

In the old days there was a " Police Blotter " which could be accessed by anyone to see who was drunk and disorderly, or caught stealing or fined for whatever. I assume this no longer exists , otherwise the Honor Code people could see every arrest and police action that was public record.

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

As a rule, institutions will abuse power as long as they believe the benefits outweigh the costs.  I

What I am curious about us whether it is better for BYU to decertify rather than open their records for investigation. It may be better for them to downgrade their police force. In my opinion, it’s possible they were abusing the police database and giving private records to the honor code in many cases but since, the records are not being released, we will never really know.

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

What I am curious about us whether it is better for BYU to decertify rather than open their records for investigation. It may be better for them to downgrade their police force. In my opinion, it’s possible they were abusing the police database and giving private records to the honor code in many cases but since, the records are not being released, we will never really know.

I can't imagine that BYU wants to have it's police department downgraded to security guard status.  So, if they refuse to move into compliance I think it will hint at inappropriate actions that they don't want revealed.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

In the old days there was a " Police Blotter " which could be accessed by anyone to see who was drunk and disorderly, or caught stealing or fined for whatever. I assume this no longer exists , otherwise the Honor Code people could see every arrest and police action that was public record.

Regular police do this, so not sure if that would be improper.  Honor Code people could be looking at any Utah police who do this and checking against students' name.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I can't imagine that BYU wants to have it's police department downgraded to security guard status.  So, if they refuse to move into compliance I think it will hint at inappropriate actions that they don't want revealed.

Might be a nice cost saving move though.  I have not really understood why BYU felt the need since I first heard of it back in my days as a student.  Why not let Provo Police handle things?

[bsjkki]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Might be a nice cost saving move though.  I have not really understood why BYU felt the need since I first heard of it back in my days as a student.  Why not let Provo Police handle things?

It also saves them from risk exposer/liability. I don’t think it would be awful to let Provo deal with it all.

Edited February 26, 2019 by bsjkki

[MustardSeed]

We as a church like to keep things internal, don’t we. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

We as a church like to keep things internal, don’t we. 

Only somethings.  Policies for being self sufficient have long been discarded in the sense that leaders will tell members to make use of government welfare services, for example.  We partner with others in humanitarian efforts (dropped ownership of stores, banks, hospitals, etc).

And there is a huge practical streak of using resources efficiently.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Calm

[hope_for_things]

47 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

What I am curious about us whether it is better for BYU to decertify rather than open their records for investigation. It may be better for them to downgrade their police force. In my opinion, it’s possible they were abusing the police database and giving private records to the honor code in many cases but since, the records are not being released, we will never really know.

You make an interesting point, they may prefer to be decertified than to comply with the pending open records requests out there.  Although I wonder after the Utah Supreme Court makes its ruling on that lawsuit if they will be forced to comply even if they are decertified.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  

[rockpond]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Might be a nice cost saving move though.  I have not really understood why BYU felt the need since I first heard of it back in my days as a student.  Why not let Provo Police handle things?

That's a good point.  It could save money.  But having their own PD gives them the freedom to customize enforcement and protection.

[CAS]

4 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I'm a faithful member but I'm not sad about this. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900057603/byu-police-decertified-by-state-utah.html

"According to the letter, BYU police "failed to comply with the certification criteria … specifically, between 2016 and April 2018, BYUPD failed to conduct an internal investigation into specific allegations of misconduct by a BYUPD officer and failed to report any findings found to be true to Peace Officer Standards and Training" as required by law.

The department also "failed to comply with a subpoena issued by POST" on June 28 into allegations of misconduct by a BYUPD officer," the letter states.

Utah Department of Public Safety spokeswoman Marissa Cote said the department failed to comply with public records requests, even when the state was the one requesting records.

In December, the state sent BYU a letter saying it risked decertification if police didn't allow "all records, personnel and electronic data deemed necessary by DPS to conduct an investigation of BYU" police to be reviewed by the state. The department was also warned BYU in the letter not to "destroy, tamper with, conceal or alter" any records or documents.

The state has granted an extension to BYU until Sept. 1 to find alternative policing if it does not plan to appeal the ruling. Once the decertification is finalized, the BYU Police Department would essentially have the same powers as a private security company. It would not be recognized by the state's Peace Officer Standards and Training or other departments as a law enforcement agency and would not have the power to arrest people."

BYU can not be certified and also not adhere to the  requirements of all the other police departments in Utah. They should not have special status. I've been studying this issue closely and this ruling is not surprising.

I have often wished that I could be given management of a PD like this one. My wife says my style of leadership is fearsome, but I really just do my best to get everyone on the same page, to be their very best, calm even when bullets are flying and caring even when dealing with a gross mess or people that you would rather never meet. Things like this happen, typically, when there is an honesty problem at the top of the chain and they are more worried about protecting someone that could potentially expose a bad situation or they just don't have the courage to deal with a bad cop who scares them. The dishonesty in our ranks has made it difficult to do the right thing, but there are many of the rising generation who get it and I think they are going to have a major positive impact.

[toon]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

You make an interesting point, they may prefer to be decertified than to comply with the pending open records requests out there.  Although I wonder after the Utah Supreme Court makes its ruling on that lawsuit if they will be forced to comply even if they are decertified.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  

I'm not sure that would get them off the hook. It would seem odd that you could avoid disclosing an otherwise record that was otherwise subject to disclosure under an open records law simply by disbanding. If that record was created at a time when it was subject to disclosure, then it should still be disclosable. I understand BYUPD's argument with regard to GRAMA, but assuming GRAMA applies, my guess is that it would still apply.

Regardless of what happens, during the time in question, there was a police department with officers granted certain powers and authority by the state. The public and especially impacted individuals need to be able to evaluate how those powers and authority were used, and that need doesn't go away simply because the department no longer exists.

Edited February 27, 2019 by toon

[bsjkki]

13 minutes ago, CAS said:

I have often wished that I could be given management of a PD like this one. My wife says my style of leadership is fearsome, but I really just do my best to get everyone on the same page, to be their very best, calm even when bullets are flying and caring even when dealing with a gross mess or people that you would rather never meet. Things like this happen, typically, when there is an honesty problem at the top of the chain and they are more worried about protecting someone that could potentially expose a bad situation or they just don't have the courage to deal with a bad cop who scares them. The dishonesty in our ranks has made it difficult to do the right thing, but there are many of the rising generation who get it and I think they are going to have a major positive impact.

I hope so. Many times when people make decisions that are wrong because of a desire to protect an institution, many times, eventually, it comes back in a more negative way. I think institutions can learn to deal with these things better and I think many are, including the church.

[hope_for_things]

21 minutes ago, toon said:

I'm not sure that would get them off the hook. It would seem odd that you could avoid disclosing an otherwise record that was otherwise subject to disclosure under an open records law simply by disbanding. If that record was created at a time when it was subject to disclosure, then it should still be disclosable. I understand BYUPD's argument with regard to GRAMA, but assuming GRAMA applies, my guess is that it would still apply.

Regardless of what happens, during the time in question, there was a police department with officers granted certain powers and authority by the state. The public and especially impacted individuals need to be able to evaluate how those powers and authority were used, and that need doesn't go away simply because the department no longer exists.

Great points.  I sincerely hope you are correct.  We need some accountability.  

[CA Steve]

36 minutes ago, toon said:

I'm not sure that would get them off the hook. It would seem odd that you could avoid disclosing an otherwise record that was otherwise subject to disclosure under an open records law simply by disbanding. If that record was created at a time when it was subject to disclosure, then it should still be disclosable. I understand BYUPD's argument with regard to GRAMA, but assuming GRAMA applies, my guess is that it would still apply.

Regardless of what happens, during the time in question, there was a police department with officers granted certain powers and authority by the state. The public and especially impacted individuals need to be able to evaluate how those powers and authority were used, and that need doesn't go away simply because the department no longer exists.

I would guess that even if they were eventually forced to comply, the time it would take to wind its way though the courts would probably mean no one would still be around who really cared anymore.